Off Topic Thread 5.0

Zzippy

I think a lot of people have observed all the restrictions asked of them. But a lot have not, and care less, because they know there is no penalty. This "policing by consent" policy has no place in a pandemic. There will always be people who think rules don't apply to them, and put everyone else at risk. What use is a guard "advising" them what they should do? Look at the checkpoints last week on the Dublin-Wicklow border.

"Where are you coming from? Ballsbridge. And you're going to Wexford? Are you aware you have been asked not to leave Dublin? Well, all I can do is advise you of that, carry on..."

There need to be mandatory rules and much harsher penalties for breaking them. If people see that there will be far greater compliance, and maybe level 5 is not required. Parties, public gatherings, protests have all been allowed to happen and need to stop.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

Well I definitely there is no widespread public appetite for that all at.

The goal coming out of lockdown was to avoid another one by using policies like mask wearing, social distancing, social gathering limitations and keeping certain types of premises closed.

The point of a lockdown is to prevent the health service being overwhelmed. NPHET clearly feel that this risk is now in play again. Covid can get out of control in a very short period of time which is how Italy was devastated at the outset of this. The UK waited until the last minute to hit the panic button and paid a huge price.

awec wrote: »

So the end result is a country that might have fewer cases, but that's going to be totally broke.

The more lockdowns we go through, the more people are going to end up with no home and no job, in a country that doesn't have the money to support them properly.

Its not. The Government is telling us to lockdown, because if the hospitals are over run then public confidence will collapse and people will lockdown regardless but it won't be coordinated nationally and we won't get the virus under control.

The countries finances are ****ed regardless, but I'd rather an organised national lockdown than a disorganised national meltdown with hospitals overrun.

awec wrote: »

But we can cope with this increase? We haven't been told otherwise.

Up to a point, but the numbers are increasing dramatically over just a seven day period. If we do nothing then by the time we are out of ICU bed availability, we are 1 - 2 weeks away from that need doubling again. I suspect the modelling is showing hospitals at capacity by the end of October.

kuang1

All GAA club games cancelled.

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

The goal coming out of lockdown was to avoid another one by using policies like mask wearing, social distancing, social gathering limitations and keeping certain types of premises closed.
.

apart from what some, in the main, dublin based posters here are saying about large scale non wearing of masks and large social gatherings... i can say that in my experience the mask wearing where im from is in the high ninety percent range generally. You simply dont go int a shop here without your face covering on. You dont get into a taxi, you dont walk into a pub or restaurant without one on.

family gatherings are very small. Communions and confirmations have been staggered and in the vast main, there are no large get togethers after.

there was one case near me, where a 21st birthday party happened and a marquee was set up.. then ended up having about 200 people at it... the guards came out, closed it down and fined the homeowner €2500

is it any wonder however.. that NPHET are looking at a high spike in cases 3 weeks after the schools started back????

we have countie slike longford, leitrim, kilkenny, louth, cavan, clare, mayo, galway etc where the numbers over the last 2 weeks have been either stready or dropping. That they should be limited to a nationwide course of action because of certain other areas inability to self control is simply nonsensical, and against the whole idea of the level system.

Podge_irl

There is also the inescapable fact that you have to work in a system where people can easily make comparisons across the rest of Europe. Its all well and good to say "listen to the experts" etc etc, but other countries with worse cases than Ireland are taking a fundamentally different approach. It's worth asking why, and people will inevitably ask why

Our low level of ICU beds probably plays into it for one, but this needs to be explained.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

Out of interest - do you think any of these people are following the guidelines:

Do you think they'll obey any increased ones?

awec

NPHET on the 1st October:

"On balance, the NPHET agreed that while the current
trajectory of the disease is very concerning, the current epidemiological data does not strongly
support a move to Level 3 nationally at this time."

3 days later... LEVEL 5 EVERYWHERE.


This is a ****show. The whole point of the levels system is to allow us to adjust gradually and react to living with the virus. To go from localized level 2/3, to 5 nationally, means either:

1. NPHET have grossly under-represented the current danger out there and we should have been in a level 3/4 nationwide lockdown already
2. They are over-representing the current danger in calling for the most extreme option possible.
3. Things have changed utterly drastically in 2 days to the point where we've gone from relatively minor risk to major risk and it's caught them all by surprise.

None of it inspires much confidence in the people making these calls.

aloooof

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is also the inescapable fact that you have to work in a system where people can easily make comparisons across the rest of Europe. Its all well and good to say "listen to the experts" etc etc, but other countries with worse cases than Ireland are taking a fundamentally different approach. It's worth asking why, and people will inevitably ask why

Our low level of ICU beds probably plays into it for one, but this needs to be explained.

This thread is pretty good on that exact point:

https://twitter.com/NaomiOhReally/status/1312868362611982336

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

Do you think they'll obey any increased ones?

No which is kinda the point, the rest of us will have to observe greater intrusion to accommodate their ignorance and stupidity.

sydthebeat

Podge_irl wrote: »

Do you think they'll obey any increased ones?

not a hope... and their numbers will increase substantially.

heres a response i got from an idiot yesterday on the whole issue of mask wearing :



this though process is widespread among idiots, and people i would not consider to be idiots, and is gaining traction due to the vacuum from government.

Gov communication is abysmal on this. Their communication lanes are prehistoric. the only people who watch the six one news or the late late show are the people who already are restricting movements and wear masks everywhere.

awec

The mask thing wasn't helped by the government initially telling people there was no benefit to masks.

sydthebeat

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is also the inescapable fact that you have to work in a system where people can easily make comparisons across the rest of Europe. Its all well and good to say "listen to the experts" etc etc, but other countries with worse cases than Ireland are taking a fundamentally different approach. It's worth asking why, and people will inevitably ask why

Our low level of ICU beds probably plays into it for one, but this needs to be explained.

we currently have 23 covid related cases in ICU out of a total of approx 300.

thats 8% of capacity currently

we had 354 ICU beds available back in april, ready for the surge that never happened.

awec

awec wrote: »

The mask thing wasn't helped by the government initially telling people there was no benefit to masks.

Is that strictly true? My understanding is masks were not recommend to the public because they were needed in hospitals first and foremost until production could be ramped up.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

So the end result is a country that might have fewer cases, but that's going to be totally broke.

The more lockdowns we go through, the more people are going to end up with no home and no job, in a country that doesn't have the money to support them properly.

What do you mean it’s going to be totally broke?

There’s no actual reason for this to be true. If the government decides not to offset the economic hit with fiscal measures then they’re utterly incompetent. And the same goes for monetary policy across the whole of Europe.

There’ll be a massive short term impact across Europe and it will take time for the economy to reset, but we’re not going to be broke and any industry which has sound fundamentals should be saved. Not doing so when there’s no reason it can’t be afforded would be absolute idiocy.

The economy shouldn’t come into it. Our bond rate is -0.16%. The economy can be turned around in 2021. Deaths and permanent health issues can not.

Yeah_Right

Podge_irl wrote: »

Do you think they'll obey any increased ones?

NPHET should have flown drones over that group of morons and sprayed them with Covid.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Is that strictly true? My understanding is masks were not recommend to the public because they were needed in hospitals first and foremost until production could be ramped up.

Yes, there was all sort of talk about how if you wear a mask but don't wear it correctly it's a risk etc, you should only wear one if you're caring for someone with Covid etc.

The point was to stop mass buying of masks when the health services needed it, but the messaging put to the public was to try to convince them masks weren't essential.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Do you think they'll obey any increased ones?

I think this is the biggest problem. Large numbers of people are disobeying the guidelines across the country. The Donegal lockdown was totally ignored by lots of people inside and outside the county (who still went on their holidays).

MAYBE level 5 is strict enough to bring everyone in line? But if people in general won’t obey guidelines then what can be done next? Heavy policing? I dunno

awec

To be clear I'm not anti-lockdown or anti-mask or any of that other conspiracy theory nonsense. I follow the guidelines, haven't set foot in a pub or restaurant since the lockdown in March, socialising limited to small groups.

But I absolutely believe that we are owed an explanation as to how we go from "don't need level 3" to "we need level 5" in 3 days. This is where my frustration is, the messaging on this is a shambles.

Stheno

awec wrote: »

But I absolutely believe that we are owed an explanation as to how we go from "don't need level 3" to "we need level 5" in 3 days. This is where my frustration is, the messaging on this is a shambles.

I'm the same, I don't get the messaging at all on this

Also don't believe the four weeks line either

Squidgy Black

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is that strictly true? My understanding is masks were not recommend to the public because they were needed in hospitals first and foremost until production could be ramped up.

Yeah unfortunately the original discussion around masks was how well they will protect the wearer, not those around them. That was the narrative being pushed at least.

So what's happened now is there's a subsection of society who don't have enough cranial space to intake any more information outside of the price of a 25 box of JPB and where does 4 cans of karpackie for a fiver, who are latching on to the original discussions

Neil3030

Wait, they sell cigarettes in boxes of 25 now?

MaybeMaybe

what does level 5 mean for air travel? if the airport is open and no one is being tested or forced to quarantine then what's the point?

Stheno

Neil3030 wrote: »

Wait, they sell cigarettes in boxes of 25 now?

Marlboros come in pack of 27:D

MaybeMaybe wrote: »

what does level 5 mean for air travel? if the airport is open and no one is being tested or forced to quarantine then what's the point?

exactly

Squidgy Black

Neil3030 wrote: »

Wait, they sell cigarettes in boxes of 25 now?

Yep long gone are the days of ten packs, instead you can buy 25 or 27 now

mfceiling

As awec says it's the jumping around from day to day.

Today grand, tomorrow we're fcuked. Restaurants literally waiting to see if they have to throw out perfectly good food and let staff go on the whim of a politician.

You can't even call it a traffic light system. Red...no wait slightly green..no wait level 2 here but level 3 in the next county...no wait amber...no wait possibly level 5. It's a bit of a shìtshow to be honest.

FACECUTTR

mfceiling wrote: »

As awec says it's the jumping around from day to day.

Today grand, tomorrow we're fcuked. Restaurants literally waiting to see if they have to throw out perfectly good food and let staff go on the whim of a politician.

You can't even call it a traffic light system. Red...no wait slightly green..no wait level 2 here but level 3 in the next county...no wait amber...no wait possibly level 5. It's a bit of a shìtshow to be honest.

It's been a **** show from the start. They have had 6 months to get ready and clear up the communication issues to the public. They have failed in all respects. Now they want to go back to a lockdown. All they have done is confuse the whole thing from the start and give those anti masker morons more ammunition to fire.

aloooof

The UK have been using Excel as their Covid database....

https://twitter.com/MaxCRoser/status/1313046638915706880

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

is it any wonder however.. that NPHET are looking at a high spike in cases 3 weeks after the schools started back???

Apparently the rise in cases began before schools went back. Be careful with the correlation/causation issue there...

awec wrote: »

The mask thing wasn't helped by the government initially telling people there was no benefit to masks.

Initially we were told there was no benefit to wearing a mask in order to protect ourselves from the virus. Subsequently we were told to wear a mask to stop ourselves from spreading the virus. The advice changed, but so did the rationale. This goes back to my previous point. People want short, snappy messages.

Don't wear a mask as it won't stop you contracting the virus becomes simply dont wear a mask.

Wear a mask to stop yourself from spreading the virus becomes wear a mask.

The abbreviated versions sound contradictory despite the fact that the statements themselves are not contradictory. More info was provided, but far too many people ignored it, taking only the bare minimum from the message.

awec wrote: »

To be clear I'm not anti-lockdown or anti-mask or any of that other conspiracy theory nonsense. I follow the guidelines, haven't set foot in a pub or restaurant since the lockdown in March, socialising limited to small groups.

But I absolutely believe that we are owed an explanation as to how we go from "don't need level 3" to "we need level 5" in 3 days. This is where my frustration is, the messaging on this is a shambles.

This is very valid point, although it is also worth noting that no decision has been made so we aren't owed an explanation until one is. I'd hope it is provided, but I do think the current Gov have gotten the comms element of this badly, badly wrong thus far.

molloyjh

aloooof wrote: »

The UK have been using Excel as their Covid database....

https://twitter.com/MaxCRoser/status/1313046638915706880

You have got to be f-ing kidding me! That's a whole new level of incompetence right there. While Ireland are getting an app up and running that is being used around the world to trace C19 cases, the UK are using excel to track large numbers of things. Thats just bafflingly stupid.

b.gud

mfceiling wrote: »

As awec says it's the jumping around from day to day.

Today grand, tomorrow we're fcuked. Restaurants literally waiting to see if they have to throw out perfectly good food and let staff go on the whim of a politician.

I mean we are dealing with an infectious disease that whose infecetion and transmission rate can vary wildly so it does make sense that things change from day to day. I absolutely think that there has been some really bad communication on the issue and that things could be handled better but I don't think you can say it's on a whim. Also you can't really go telling people right we're going into full lockdown next week to give businesses like restaurants time to prepare because if you do people will act crazy and get as much non lockdown stuff done as possible.