Special leave covid19 public service

horsebox7

Hi,

Can a public service office administration staff member on special leave on health grounds for the forseeable be compelled to work and be redeployed under the temporary assistant scheme across the civil and public service to take on work such as contract tracing etc.?

Thanks

stargazer 68

Well in our place if you are on Covid leave due to an underlying condition but not actually on sick leave then yes if you can do it from home and are set up. But you can't be redeployed to another premises or area.

gerrybbadd

In our place, we had to come up with a list of staff that could possibly be redeployed. But staff have to be willing to redeploy, and it has to be done via the Public Appointments Service. So i wonder, if your chosen for redeployment, and don't conform with the PAS requirement, can they force your hand? I very much doubt it

Sad Professor

As I understand it from the DPER documents, if you are otherwise well but self-isolating due to an underlying condition then you are considered available for work albeit from home. If you can't work remotely in your current role then you can be redeployed to a role in which you can, either within or outside your current organisation. Strictly speaking if you refused redeployment and to do work from home I suppose they could stop paying you, but it really would depend on local management.

AulWan

New Guidelines from 9th April

See Section 4.

horsebox7

Thanks for the replies.

From going thru the temporary reassignment questionnaire/survey there is no opportunity to highlight the fact that a person is on special leave on medical grounds and needs to work from home.

There is also no where to highlight if you don't have the necessary equipment to work from home i.e laptop/broadband.

Therefore filling out the questionnaire/survey would appear to give your consent to be redeployed to a physical office/workplace. The survey simply ask you to provide options for your preferred location.

horsebox7

Thanks for the replies.

From going thru the temporary reassignment questionnaire/survey there is no opportunity to highlight the fact that a person is on special leave on medical grounds and needs to work from home.

There is also no where to highlight if you don't have the necessary equipment to work from home i.e laptop/broadband.

Therefore filling out the questionnaire/survey would appear to give your consent to be redeployed to a physical office/workplace. The survey simply ask you to provide options for your preferred location.

Sad Professor

Contact your local HR. They are the ones who released you and have final approval before you get reassigned. You remain an employee of your current dept/organisation so any problems you have with the redeployment process is for them to deal with.

The questionnaire is a bit of joke. Something presumedly thrown together without much thought. They really should have focused on keeping people in their current location and/or work arrangement and assigning them different work. Moving people around in the middle of a pandemic when they are likely to put up several times as much resistance due to childcare, medical, transport issues etc doesn't seem like a smart idea.

the14thwarrior

When you say special leave, are you talking about cocooning?
do you meet the criteria, and do you have the appropriate documentation?

horsebox7

I have a letter from my doctor saying l am in the at risk group and have an underlying medical condition.

horsebox7

My key question is can you be compelled to work in a physical workspace if you are on special leave on medical grounds even if there are social distancing measures in place?

Shane Fitz

horsebox7 wrote: »

I have a letter from my doctor saying l am in the at risk group and have an underlying medical condition.

When you say from your doctor.. do you mean your GP or a Consultant/Specialist for your underlying health condition?

Sad Professor

horsebox7 wrote: »

My key question is can you be compelled to work in a physical workspace if you are on special leave on medical grounds even if there are social distancing measures in place?

If you are on special leave then you aren't available for work, either in an office or at home. Hence "leave". So presumedly any redeployment would have to wait until you return from leave.

However, as pointed out, I don't think you are strictly allowed claim special leave just because you are in a risk group. But I suspect many people are because their doctors are certifying them and nobody is checking it. How that will be dealt with later I don't know. It could subsequently be classified as regular sick leave for not meeting the criteria for special leave.

In general, I doubt they will compel anyone to do anything. At most they'll just tell people they won't get paid unless local management come to an arrangement with them. But who knows... this is changing every week.

This is my understanding. I'd suggest contacting your local HR or union for advice.

AulWan

I read it the same way.

Eventually, they will have to either stop or reduce pay to people who can't work from home and who can't redeploy. Especially if the restrictions are loosened, buildings reopened, etc. Another alternative may be to offer those at risk the option to use up their annual leave allowances.

They are not going to allow a situation to develop where thousands of civil/public servants are at home long term and not working, due to being in an at risk category, on full pay. This virus is going to be an issue for a long time, possibly years.

At best, they may come up with some kind of scheme, like is being done for other workers, e.g. childcare sector where you receive some kind of pay, e.g. €350 per week.

I fall into an at risk category myself.

horsebox7

Shane Fitz wrote: »

When you say from your doctor.. do you mean your GP or a Consultant/Specialist for your underlying health condition?

Its an official medical recommendation from my doctor and has been approved by HR department.

horsebox7

Unfortunately i cannot get clarity from HR. I am simply asked to see the current guidelines on gov.ie updated april 9th. It is apparent there is no definitive answer on this as of yet and potentially there wont be an answer on this for some time as employment law has yet to catch up with this type of scenario.

Shane Fitz

horsebox7 wrote: »

Its an official medical recommendation from my doctor and has been approved by HR department.

Respectfully and I don't mean to nit pick.. GP or consultant/
specialist

a GP can certify your illness in line with the existing Attendance Management/ sick leave policies. But as you've acknowledged, you are not currently ill.
To "certify" you as vulnerable due to an underlying medical condition it has to be your Specialist.

If you have that, then you can submit it and the self declaration to your line manager for approval to avail of special leave with pay

horsebox7

Shane Fitz wrote: »

Respectfully and I don't mean to nit pick.. GP or consultant/
specialist

a GP can certify your illness in line with the existing Attendance Management/ sick leave policies. But as you've acknowledged, you are not currently ill.
To "certify" you as vulnerable due to an underlying medical condition it has to be your Specialist.

If you have that, then you can submit it and the self declaration to your line manager for approval to avail of special leave with pay

Thanks. Im already receiving special leave with pay. However im now being asked to work in a phyical workspace under the temporary assignment scheme.

AulWan

Shane Fitz wrote: »

To "certify" you as vulnerable due to an underlying medical condition it has to be your Specialist.

The difficulty I can see with that, is being able to get in contact with a Consultant/Specialist for a letter, at this time.

In my case, even my GP surgery is closed due to "illness". It may be a case of HRs accepting self-certification, for the time being, until proof can be gotten.

I can work remotely, but if I couldn't I would have no way of getting a consultant's letter - especially as a public patient!

Shane Fitz

horsebox7 wrote: »

Thanks. Im already receiving special leave with pay. However im now being asked to work in a phyical workspace under the temporary assignment scheme.

If you're on leave, then short of the sky falling in.. and thankfully were not there yet.. you should be left on leave.. there are still plenty of staff in the wider PS/CS available for redeployment

horsebox7

The ultimate key question is can someone on special leave be compelled to work either at home or in the office?

the14thwarrior

I think they can ask you to work unless you fall under the cocooning guidelines.
And you need a specialist to confirm you have such a severe illness that you fall under those guidelines.
there are many public servants working from home whilst still fitting the cocooning guidelines.

there is no special leave as such for Covid.

If you don't, you will be asked to take it out of your sick leave. You are either on sick leave or you are not?
If you are not on sick leave, then you are on full pay and working from home or can work without patient contact etc..

a cert from the GP won't do.
there is a circular from HSE outlining the derogation process, a new one.
have you written or called the consultant for a letter?
it will help to have started the process

horsebox7

the14thwarrior wrote: »

I think they can ask you to work unless you fall under the cocooning guidelines.
And you need a specialist to confirm you have such a severe illness that you fall under those guidelines.
there are many public servants working from home whilst still fitting the cocooning guidelines.

there is no special leave as such for Covid.

If you don't, you will be asked to take it out of your sick leave. You are either on sick leave or you are not?
If you are not on sick leave, then you are on full pay and working from home or can work without patient contact etc..

a cert from the GP won't do.
there is a circular from HSE outlining the derogation process, a new one.
have you written or called the consultant for a letter?
it will help to have started the process

Thanks.

I am approved by my HR section for special covid19 leave for the foreseeable.

the14thwarrior

horsebox7 wrote: »

Thanks.

I am approved by my HR section for special covid19 leave for the foreseeable.

with all due respect and in an effort to assist you, HR cannot approve special covid 19 leave? unless its not sick leave.......

and what HR approved weeks or even days ago changes as the circulars are updated ? and what might have been approved then, may not apply now as everything has changed.

if you could clarify if it is a cocooning definable illness as listed in the government document, it would help give you answers.
other than that it is either sick leave or unpaid leave ?

Shane Fitz

horsebox7 wrote: »

The ultimate key question is can someone on special leave be compelled to work either at home or in the office?

You can't be compelled to work. However the status of your special leave is subject to review. Given that new guidelines issued on 9th, what was good enough then may not be good enough now. And as has been said earlier.. only a Specialist can state you are in the vulnerable category. Not HR, line manager and not a GP
If at the time you couldn't attend for work and it wasnt possible or practical for you to work from home in your current role it was reasonable at the time to put you on special leave.
That would always have only been a short term situation.
Since than there have been updated guidance.. and the latest ones are suggesting those in your circumstances are offered redeployment to other duties, other wise it could be unpaid leave.
You cannot refuse the redeployment, it would fall into disciplinary.
However any redeployment should recognise your own particular circumstances and offer you an appropriately safe role.
Remember it will be the recieveing side who ultimately decides if it can facilitate that.. your own dept are just offering a person for a role.

DM_7

As said that special leave was only temporary and short term as things escalated quickly. You won't get that leave on an ongoing basis and be paid to stay home not working. Your Department could have assigned you work from home at the beginning and the initial special leave does not lead to an entitlement to stay off work.

You can be put forward for redeployment and assigned to a new Department. In this case there may be an oversight as HR did not get you back to work before making you available to PAS. As you were put forward the PAS system would assume you are available for work.

At this point I would be engaging with HR and requesting work from home from your existing department. If you are redeployed you would end up having to ask that of the new Department anyway.

While a doctor may have signed off on you not going to work, that is sick leave rather than special leave.

horsebox7

horsebox7 wrote: »

The ultimate key question is can someone on special leave be compelled to work either at home or in the office?

Would you not be willing to work from home?

AulWan

From the latest circular:

1.2 Should employees who are more at risk for serious illness from COVID-19 attend the workplace?

Only essential workers are now to be physically present in the workplace, following the Taoiseach’s announcement of 27th March.

Essential workers in the at risk category need to take extra precautions to protect themselves from coronavirus. Information in relation to these measures are available from the HSE. This advice is currently in place until 12th April however this date will be continuously reviewed. Advice in relation to those who are considered a key/essential worker can be found on the following website Gov.ie/List of Essential Services

Employers will have been working to prioritise and facilitate this group in terms of flexible working arrangements, including working remotely.

Where working remotely is not possible, if the employee is at home, and is not ill, they are to be considered available for work including temporary assignment of work outside their usual core duties / a new role as required by the Public Service.

So, I guess another question is - Can you work remotely? If not, it looks like you can be reassigned. Its hinted at in other parts of the circular, that if you refuse to comply with a direction, it can become a disciplinary matter, or "the witholding of pay may arise".

MintyMagnum

How are PS facilitating work from home? Just curious. Say if you didn't have a laptop or broadband?

AulWan

My department has provided some people with laptops. Most people do have broadband nowadays, in the last six weeks I've come across one case where someone did not have broadband at home and they have been redeployed to another position.

I guess if you don't have broadband and don't want to get it installed, then your option is to accept redeployment.

Thats how I'd read it, anyway.

the14thwarrior

You just need to be careful you could find yourself out of sick pay or no pay
offer it up, by time they get to you they probably won't have anything for you?
redeployement seems to be hit and miss, lots of people told they will be and nothing for weeks

Abba987

Realistically how long can this covid leave last? Another year ? Its just not possible to have hundreds of public servants on this open ended leave. This virus is not going anywhere. Workplaces have to be adapted to allow social distancing and appropriate hygiene and if necessary work from home but just not working and still being paid is not a long term option

horsebox7

I have no laptop or broadband so cant work from home unfortunately.

So even though l am on special leave as i have an underlying health condition can l now be compelled to go back to work in an office environment?

To me even if there are social distancing measures in place in an office in my opinion it isnt acceptable as social distancing is standard procedure for everyone and for those with underlying health conditions more should be done in terms of protection.

Is there any obligation on the employer to provide a laptop and broadband for an employee on special leave on medical grounds to work from home?

Can anyone tell me in the updated april 9th document where it says cocooning needs to be certified by a specialist? I see it says cocooning can be done by self declaration but if employer has any doubts the occupational health officer in the local authority can be referred to.

horsebox7

Shane Fitz wrote: »

You can't be compelled to work. However the status of your special leave is subject to review. Given that new guidelines issued on 9th, what was good enough then may not be good enough now. And as has been said earlier.. only a Specialist can state you are in the vulnerable category. Not HR, line manager and not a GP
If at the time you couldn't attend for work and it wasnt possible or practical for you to work from home in your current role it was reasonable at the time to put you on special leave.
That would always have only been a short term situation.
Since than there have been updated guidance.. and the latest ones are suggesting those in your circumstances are offered redeployment to other duties, other wise it could be unpaid leave.
You cannot refuse the redeployment, it would fall into disciplinary.
However any redeployment should recognise your own particular circumstances and offer you an appropriately safe role.
Remember it will be the recieveing side who ultimately decides if it can facilitate that.. your own dept are just offering a person for a role.

Thanks.

There is no option on the redeployment survey to say you are on special leave on medical grounds and need to work from home. Therefore by default by submitting this limited survey you are consenting to work in an office environment.

the14thwarrior

its not on that circular.
its a different document.
just google gov.ie cocooning.
its all there.


the government directions on cocooning must be followed by public servant employees and employers.

do you meet that criteria? if you do, your consultant will give you a letter.
if you don't, see my previous posts?

in general, you must meet strict criteria to meet the cocooning criteria, and thus, you can be exempt from going to a workplace.
you can work from home if you want.
lots of people are doing this.

AulWan

horsebox7 wrote: »

I have no laptop or broadband so cant work from home unfortunately.

So even though l am on special leave as i have an underlying health condition can l now be compelled to go back to work in an office environment?

To me even if there are social distancing measures in place in an office in my opinion it isnt acceptable as social distancing is standard procedure for everyone and for those with underlying health conditions more should be done in terms of protection.

Is there any obligation on the employer to provide a laptop and broadband for an employee on special leave on medical grounds to work from home?

Can anyone tell me in the updated april 9th document where it says cocooning needs to be certified by a specialist? I see it says cocooning can be done by self declaration but if employer has any doubts the occupational health officer in the local authority can be referred to.

There is a footnote on complicance with the provisions of special leave with pay.

3 Bona fide in relation to a representation or communication means in good faith and well founded in fact. The employer reserves the right to request further confirmation.

So basically, yes, they can ask for proof from a specialist, if they want.

Abba987

horsebox7 wrote: »

I have no laptop or broadband so cant work from home unfortunately.

So even though l am on special leave as i have an underlying health condition can l now be compelled to go back to work in an office environment?

To me even if there are social distancing measures in place in an office in my opinion it isnt acceptable as social distancing is standard procedure for everyone and for those with underlying health conditions more should be done in terms of protection.

Is there any obligation on the employer to provide a laptop and broadband for an employee on special leave on medical grounds to work from home?

Can anyone tell me in the updated april 9th document where it says cocooning needs to be certified by a specialist? I see it says cocooning can be done by self declaration but if employer has any doubts the occupational health officer in the local authority can be referred to.

Id say theyll give you a laptop no bother.
How long do you expect to stay out of work on full pay?
And i would hope at the very least a consultant would be deciding you are fit for work in this situation but your occ health may make the decision

the14thwarrior

although it may happen, i doubt occ.health will be making a decision on this.
they are not in a position to do this, is my understanding.
they are too busy doing other things and not there to sign off on sick certs for employees at this time.
in any event, a sick cert is always needed by a gp in normal times, occ. health role is not to give a sick cert, and policy would dictate this.
given these stressful times they are especially not able to take on individual cases
they will always refer back to gp or consultant.

occ. health can advise but i really don't think that they will be getting involved in this case

AulWan

horsebox7 wrote: »

Is there any obligation on the employer to provide a laptop and broadband for an employee on special leave on medical grounds to work from home?.

My department provided laptops. Basic enough models, you wouldn't be gaming on them, but perfectly sufficient for work purposes.

Broadband can be gotten for as little as €20 a month.

You have to meet them half way.

Speaking as someone who has three underlying conditions myself, if I were you I would be arranging for broadband to be installed at home as soon as possible and asking for a laptop and to be assigned remote work, and stop all the faffing around.

DM_7

horsebox7 wrote: »

I have no laptop or broadband so cant work from home unfortunately.

So even though l am on special leave as i have an underlying health condition can l now be compelled to go back to work in an office environment?

To me even if there are social distancing measures in place in an office in my opinion it isnt acceptable as social distancing is standard procedure for everyone and for those with underlying health conditions more should be done in terms of protection.

Is there any obligation on the employer to provide a laptop and broadband for an employee on special leave on medical grounds to work from home?

Can anyone tell me in the updated april 9th document where it says cocooning needs to be certified by a specialist? I see it says cocooning can be done by self declaration but if employer has any doubts the occupational health officer in the local authority can be referred to.

If you got broadband sorted and access to equipment on your own coin or through supply by work you can ease the uncertainty over the longer term and work from home. You won't be able to avail of full pay in the longer term while not assigned work.

In terms of the current position, special leave with pay, at this point is only available to those who have symptoms or those who have tested positive. If your Department have put you forward for reassignment then you are probably not on official special leave at all at this stage. It appears you are simply staying home in line with the current stay home requirements of non essential workers without access to carry out your current role.

The circular is clear in the levels of allowing people to stay home, reasignment and working from home.

Ongoing, if you are in the extremely vulnerable category the current circular says your current department need to facilitate you to work from home to the maximum extent possible after confirming you meet this category - you need to engage with them to have this category assigned and confirmed so they can start to set up a suitable role and equipment or material in place so you can work from home.

If you are in the lower category they can ask you back to the workplace, once the current non essential worker scenario is eased, in line with HSE advice on distancing and with flexible arrangements. If reassigned to an essential worker role the new department can ask you to attend now.

Basically, do whatever you can to be ready to work from home as that appears to be in your best interest in the weeks ahead.

AndrewJRenko

AulWan wrote: »

My department provided laptops. Basic enough models, you wouldn't be gaming on them, but perfectly sufficient for work purposes.

Broadband can be gotten for as little as €20 a month.

You have to meet them half way.

Speaking as someone who has three underlying conditions myself, if I were you I would be arranging for broadband to be installed at home as soon as possible and asking for a laptop and to be assigned remote work, and stop all the faffing around.

It would probably be easier for the Department to provide you with a mobile phone, which could be used to provide a hotspot than to pay for home broadband. The latter option opens up a whole raft of policy and process issues.

Scienceless

AulWan wrote: »

Speaking as someone who has three underlying conditions myself, if I were you I would be arranging for broadband to be installed at home as soon as possible and asking for a laptop and to be assigned remote work, and stop all the faffing around.

Good advice. When the dust settles on this whole thing, all these SLWP absences will be reviewed in detail.

AulWan

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It would probably be easier for the Department to provide you with a mobile phone, which could be used to provide a hotspot than to pay for home broadband. The latter option opens up a whole raft of policy and process issues.

I meant that the OP woud pay for broadband themselves, not their department foot the bill for it. If they did that for one, it could definitely cause issues!

I think its a case of working with them, and I'd see this as meeting them halfway.

A laptop can be handed back when the period of time working from home is over.

the14thwarrior

it might be just easier to return to work and follow standard precautions.

at the risk of sounding challenging, every other worker is / are claiming special health conditions that are not that special in actual fact - yes they are health conditions - but nonetheless doesn't mean you can't go to work.


can't justify issuing laptops and mobile phones to staff who would not normally need them nor use them.
no need to get into mobile hotspots and broadband

embraer170

You can get a GoMo sim with 80GB of data for €12.99/month. That should be enough for almost all work cases, assuming you get good enough mobile reception in your home. Ask for a laptop.

Employees (public and private sector) will be paying the price for the Corona for years to come.

DM_7

the14thwarrior wrote: »

it might be just easier to return to work and follow standard precautions.

at the risk of sounding challenging, every other worker is / are claiming special health conditions that are not that special in actual fact - yes they are health conditions - but nonetheless doesn't mean you can't go to work.


can't justify issuing laptops and mobile phones to staff who would not normally need them nor use them.
no need to get into mobile hotspots and broadband

Circular covers the variables and has the more extreme needs to stay at home covered and the employer should provide help.

While less severe can go to to work (once current essential rules are eased) again in line with distancing or be facilitated to work from home (to be facilitated it would need to suit the job and the person would probably be naturally expected to have own equipment and internet access).

Richmond Ultra

AulWan wrote: »

My department provided laptops. Basic enough models, you wouldn't be gaming on them, but perfectly sufficient for work purposes.

Broadband can be gotten for as little as €20 a month.

You have to meet them half way.

Speaking as someone who has three underlying conditions myself, if I were you I would be arranging for broadband to be installed at home as soon as possible and asking for a laptop and to be assigned remote work, and stop all the faffing around.

You can get a tax rebate of 3.70 a day working from home. That will cover the broadband. Your only being awkward saying give me full whack but not work.

horsebox7

Richmond Ultra wrote: »

You can get a tax rebate of 3.70 a day working from home. That will cover the broadband. Your only being awkward saying give me full whack but not work.

Thanks. Do you know how to apply for rebate? Ive been trying continuously to source a laptop from work for a number of weeks.

I believe public health comes first generally speaking.

Richmond Ultra

horsebox7 wrote: »

Thanks. Do you know how to apply for rebate? Ive been trying continuously to source a laptop from work for a number of weeks.

I believe public health comes first generally speaking.

Citizens information have all the details online for applying it.

Edit: it's 3.20 a day not 3.70

AulWan

There is a thread on the tax rebate here on Boards. Apparently its not easy to claim at all.

Working From Home Allowance

Before adding anthing else, Horsebox7, would you be willing to install broadband at your own expense, and maybe buy a laptop if your dept could arrange work you could do from home? Yes or No answer ?

A laptop doesn't have to be expensive or all bells and whistles. I'm currently working from home on a refurb laptop that I bought second hand from a seller on adverts (I can recommend) that I paid €125 for.

DM_7

Chromebook works grand for me to work from home.

This situation has created many inequities from those who have to work, to those getting full pay at home not working to people who want to but are not allowed to work and many others.

As said, not to challenge people, but there is give and take here and people not willing to give may get away with some things initially but end up worse off later. People in public service won't be fully paid to not work longer term.

For example those not making effort to work from home will be redeployed to essential roles and have to go to work. Some people who have made the effort to work from home are likely to be allowed to continue that initially to aid social distancing when things ease back and those who did not make the effort will be back in the workplace first.

I know of a case in an essential area who cried no broadband and is not going into the office while colleagues are working from home.