Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

rainbowtrout

JJJackal wrote: »

For kids to get their education, teachers will have to be very very flexible and not expect extra remuneration.

It sucks - but there probably isnt another way?

In a lot of schools for many subjects there is only one teacher for a particular subject, e.g. Art, Music, Woodwork, German , Physics etc etc.

If you are to split all classes in two or even three in some cases are you expecting teachers to double or triple their working hours?

I'm fine with teaching the same thing twice to two reduced size classes, but how many hours do you actually expect teachers to do? And bearing in mind that if students are on half hours and everything has to be taught at least twice so everyone gets access, what are the other students doing at home on the days they are not in? Are you expecting teachers to go in and do 12 hours shifts and then go home and spend another few hours uploading work for the ones that are not in school? Are you expecting them to put in a 70 hour week?

JJJackal

rainbowtrout wrote: »

In a lot of schools for many subjects there is only one teacher for a particular subject, e.g. Art, Music, Woodwork, German , Physics etc etc.

If you are to split all classes in two or even three in some cases are you expecting teachers to double or triple their working hours?

I'm fine with teaching the same thing twice to two reduced size classes, but how many hours do you actually expect teachers to do? And bearing in mind that if students are on half hours and everything has to be taught at least twice so everyone gets access, what are the other students doing at home on the days they are not in? Are you expecting teachers to go in and do 12 hours shifts and then go home and spend another few hours uploading work for the ones that are not in school? Are you expecting them to put in a 70 hour week?

The other half of students are at home - doing homework or whatever they want; same as now after their 6-8 hour days.

I dont expect teachers to do double or triple their working hours. The longstanding argument as to why teachers are not in class 39 hours a week is that they spent the not teaching hours correcting or preparing classes? The quantity of correcting or preparing classes stays the same. I have heard 23 hours quoted as the number of teaching hours (this figure is likely wrong)? I definitely think this could be increased to 35 hours until the crisis is over.

I expect teachers to consider spreading classes over a 12 hour day. No need to upload work after. Each student will have attended their regular classes. I think teachers could stretch to a 51 hour week.

History Queen

teachinggal123 wrote: »

This won’t happen.

The teachers on my school - not all, but a significant majority - have not done much since 12 March. They have no laptop, no training on blended learning, no suitable space at home, no detailed guidance from ETB/unions, no childcare and a lot of other excuses. They are now planning a long summer and same again in September.

Many teachers and not flexible, won’t work Saturdays, extra hours or over the summer.

Just.

Won’t.

Happen.

My point is this is a huge pity as I have family who are nurses and they don’t have this attitude. One has scarring from wearing ppe on her face and we are saying we won’t do any extra time nor be flexible.

That will come back to bite us guys.

I'm a teacher and I suggested blended learning. You keep coming on here telling us about colleagues of yours doing nothing but won'tsay what you are doing?anyway your narrow experience doesn't mean none of us will be flexible and is not a fair reflection. It is why I suggested a UNIFORM approach to blended learning be implemented. It needs to come from the top down to work.

rainbowtrout

teachinggal123 wrote: »

This won’t happen.

The teachers on my school - not all, but a significant majority - have not done much since 12 March. They have no laptop, no training on blended learning, no suitable space at home, no detailed guidance from ETB/unions, no childcare and a lot of other excuses. They are now planning a long summer and same again in September.

Many teachers and not flexible, won’t work Saturdays, extra hours or over the summer.

Just.

Won’t.

Happen.

My point is this is a huge pity as I have family who are nurses and they don’t have this attitude. One has scarring from wearing ppe on her face and we are saying we won’t do any extra time nor be flexible.

That will come back to bite us guys.

There is a massive difference between being flexible and expecting unreasonable levels of class contact time. And for every school like the one you are in there are loads pulling out all the stops for their students.

And what's this 'planning a long summer'? You make it sound like teachers are choosing not to work over the summer. We don't work in the summer. We are on holidays. You should probably start writing a few columns for the national newspapers, they'd love your take on how inflexible we are all being by taking our summer holidays, which we usually have.

I have the greatest respect for nurses, but I don't see what you achieve by comparing them. Your relation is going to work and doing her job. She has to wear PPE, I would presume it's compulsory at this stage, but is also for her own safety. But you are vilifying teachers for pointing out very obvious problems with what is being proposed.


There were 62 new cases today. Cases are dropping week on week. We have been told that the LC couldn't run for health and safety reasons. Leo says that schools are the safest place to be. We are getting very conflicting messages. We can't be in two places at once. We cannot teach online and be in a classroom teaching at the same time.

If schools are safe, why are the exams cancelled and is social distancing really necessary in September?

JJJackal

teachinggal123 wrote: »

This won’t happen.

The teachers on my school - not all, but a significant majority - have not done much since 12 March. They have no laptop, no training on blended learning, no suitable space at home, no detailed guidance from ETB/unions, no childcare and a lot of other excuses. They are now planning a long summer and same again in September.

Many teachers and not flexible, won’t work Saturdays, extra hours or over the summer.

Just.

Won’t.

Happen.

My point is this is a huge pity as I have family who are nurses and they don’t have this attitude. One has scarring from wearing ppe on her face and we are saying we won’t do any extra time nor be flexible.

That will come back to bite us guys.

You presumably are a teacher and have made valid points. I have heard from friends who are teachers that they are having a jolly time at present. There are few people in the state on full salaries and not working with no prospect of losing their jobs.

Healthcare professionals have the same excuses as teachers for not working but are being flexible. In fact healthcare professionals are moving out of their homes, leaving children etc etc - none of which will be asked of teachers

Random sample

teachinggal123 wrote: »

This won’t happen.

The teachers on my school - not all, but a significant majority - have not done much since 12 March. They have no laptop, no training on blended learning, no suitable space at home, no detailed guidance from ETB/unions, no childcare and a lot of other excuses. They are now planning a long summer and same again in September.

Many teachers and not flexible, won’t work Saturdays, extra hours or over the summer.

Just.

Won’t.

Happen.

My point is this is a huge pity as I have family who are nurses and they don’t have this attitude. One has scarring from wearing ppe on her face and we are saying we won’t do any extra time nor be flexible.

That will come back to bite us guys.

Your experience is very different to mine. Everyone in our school is pulling together, doing their best, sharing resources, sharing tips and ideas.

I’m surprised that an etb would put up with that level of engagement. I thought they ran tight ships. I’m surprised that parents would not complain. The media would be only too happy to highlight these issues, they love a good ‘lazy teachers’ story. How do your students engage? Do they mention the lack of engagement from other teachers?

teachinggal123

History Queen wrote: »

I'm a teacher and I suggested blended learning. You keep coming on here telling us about colleagues of yours doing nothing but won'tsay what you are doing?anyway your narrow experience doesn't mean none of us will be flexible and is not a fair reflection. It is why I suggested a UNIFORM approach to blended learning be implemented. It needs to come from the top down to work.

Do you think you have a wider experience than me? I’d love to know why you are saying I have a narrow experience. Is it because you disagree with me or do you think that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong? Doesn’t suit the narrative you are pushing, eh?

Many teachers have agreed with me on exactly this point. Do that have a narrow experience too?

History Queen

JJJackal wrote: »

The other half of students are at home - doing homework or whatever they want; same as now after their 6-8 hour days.

I dont expect teachers to do double or triple their working hours. The longstanding argument as to why teachers are not in class 39 hours a week is that they spent the not teaching hours correcting or preparing classes? The quantity of correcting or preparing classes stays the same. I have heard 23 hours quoted as the number of teaching hours (this figure is likely wrong)? I definitely think this could be increased to 35 hours until the crisis is over.

I expect teachers to consider spreading classes over a 12 hour day. No need to upload work after. Each student will have attended their regular classes. I think teachers could stretch to a 51 hour week.

I have 22 contact hours on my timetable so taking your example I'm doubling that to 44 hours contact time (time in front of students) but will only have 7 hours correcting and preparing time to bring me up to 51 hours. I do far more than 7 hours correcting and preparing time now so I can only see your suggestion impacting students negatively. Or are you suggesting I do 51 hours in front of students and then correcting and preparing time on top of that?

rainbowtrout

JJJackal wrote: »

The other half of students are at home - doing homework or whatever they want; same as now after their 6-8 hour days.

I dont expect teachers to do double or triple their working hours. The longstanding argument as to why teachers are not in class 39 hours a week is that they spent the not teaching hours correcting or preparing classes? The quantity of correcting or preparing classes stays the same. I have heard 23 hours quoted as the number of teaching hours (this figure is likely wrong)? I definitely think this could be increased to 35 hours until the crisis is over.

I expect teachers to consider spreading classes over a 12 hour day. No need to upload work after. Each student will have attended their regular classes. I think teachers could stretch to a 51 hour week.

Please explain to me so, if my class contact hours remain the same, how you propose the LC course (or any course for that matter) will be covered when students only have half the teaching hours allocated to them, because if I spend half my teaching hours teaching one half of my classes and the other half repeating all of that material with the second half, then only half the course gets covered over the course of an academic year.

Also I just love the way you are so casual about throwing out a 51 hour working week there like that shouldn't matter at all. Or that a 12 hour working day for 5-6 days a week is normal or desirable or sustainable. :rolleyes:

wirelessdude01

Very surprised to hear that an ETB seemingly allows such laziness in one of their schools. If I have heard correctly from friends who work within them they have some amount of paperwork to be filling in at present to show how they are doing their jobs during the current crisis.

Please explain how your school is getting away with this?

Also while you are at it could you please tell all is great citizens of boards what you are doing for the students under your care?

JJJackal

Random sample wrote: »

Your experience is very different to mine. Everyone in our school is pulling together, doing their best, sharing resources, sharing tips and ideas.

I am surprised that "everyone" is pulling together - doesnt happen pre COVID

In the same way I am surprised that teachinggal123 thinks a significant majority arent doing anything

I would say secondary schools are more engaged.

If teachinggal123 is referring to a primary school I could see why there would be less on line engagement

JJJackal

History Queen wrote: »

I have 22 contact hours on my timetable so taking your example I'm doubling that to 44 hours contact time (time in front of students) but will only have 7 hours correcting and preparing time to bring me up to 51 hours. I do far more than 7 hours correcting and preparing time now so I can only see your suggestion impacting students negatively. Or are you suggesting I do 51 hours in front of students and then correcting and preparing time on top of that?

I suggested you do 35 hours in front of students with 16 hours prepping and correcting time.

Delivering the same class twice will not lead to double the prepping and correcting time as the number of students would be identical

History Queen

teachinggal123 wrote: »

Do you think you have a wider experience than me? I’d love to know why you are saying I have a narrow experience. Is it because you disagree with me or do you think that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong? Doesn’t suit the narrative you are pushing, eh?

Many teachers have agreed with me on exactly this point. Do that have a narrow experience too?

No I meant narrow in that we all have narrow experience as in only our own experience to draw on. We cannot expect everyone's experience to mirror our own or our own to reflectqhat everyone else experiences. I'm pointing out my experience is different therefore notevery teacheris doing almost nothing as your posts suggest. Some may not be but it isn't fair or accurate to claim that all or even most are not as figures for either side of the argument cannot be verified.

Again, that is why I am calling for a uniform approach led by the Dept to increase andensure compliance.

rainbowtrout

JJJackal wrote: »

I am surprised that "everyone" is pulling together - doesnt happen pre COVID

In the same way I am surprised that teachinggal123 thinks a significant majority arent doing anything

I would say secondary schools are more engaged.

If teachinggal123 is referring to a primary school I could see why there would be less on line engagement

Why? Does it not fit with your narrative on teachers?

Teachers in my school have all been engaging online with students, people are helping each other out.

teachinggal123

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Very surprised to hear that an ETB seemingly allows such laziness in one of their schools. If I have heard correctly from friends who work within them they have some amount of paperwork to be filling in at present to show how they are doing their jobs during the current crisis.

Please explain how your school is getting away with this?

Also while you are at it could you please tell all is great citizens of boards what you are doing for the students under your care?

What paperwork are you talking about?

Still waiting to hear how you have such wide experience of this btw. Or was that the bit where you heard something from some friends in some ETB?

History Queen

JJJackal wrote: »

I suggested you do 35 hours in front of students with 16 hours prepping and correcting time.

Delivering the same class twice will not lead to double the prepping and correcting time as the number of students would be identical

But doing 35 hours won't allow for all classes to be halved? Also I understand that I won't need double prep time.

km79

Sorry folks

JJJackal

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Please explain to me so, if my class contact hours remain the same, how you propose the LC course (or any course for that matter) will be covered when students only have half the teaching hours allocated to them, because if I spend half my teaching hours teaching one half of my classes and the other half repeating all of that material with the second half, then only half the course gets covered over the course of an academic year.

Also I just love the way you are so casual about throwing out a 51 hour working week there like that shouldn't matter at all. Or that a 12 hour working day for 5-6 days a week is normal or desirable or sustainable. :rolleyes:

The leaving cert course would take priority. First years and PE (cant really do PE with social distancing) and classes that are not exam subjects would be sacrificed.

Thankfully our healthcare workers dont casually refuse to work 51 hour weeks or 12-24 hour days up to 7 days a week. Don the green jersey rainbowtrout

JJJackal

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Why? Does it not fit with your narrative on teachers?

Teachers in my school have all been engaging online with students, people are helping each other out.

I have no narrative re teachers. I made a suggestion regarding how to get students back to education. I then asked for alternatives. All most have said is why my suggestion is not practical for them

History Queen

teachinggal123 wrote: »

What paperwork are you talking about?

Still waiting to hear how you have such wide experience of this btw. Or was that the bit where you heard something from some friends in some ETB?

I think it was me you got on your highhorsewith about narrow vs wide experience. I have responded.

As regards what Wirelessdude said, Some ETBs are requiring teachers fill out forms accounting for their classes and what they are doing. My ETB doesn't require it but a friend of mime has to do it.

JJJackal

History Queen wrote: »

But doing 35 hours won't allow for all classes to be halved? Also I understand that I won't need double prep time.

Agreed you cant half all but you could focus on leaving cert classes.

Cut out PE (not feasible at present anyway) and any non examinable subjects. Unfortunately 1st years would likely suffer here to make up the shortfall...

rainbowtrout

JJJackal wrote: »

The leaving cert course would take priority. First years and PE (cant really do PE with social distancing) and classes that are not exam subjects would be sacrificed.

Thankfully our healthcare workers dont casually refuse to work 51 hour weeks or 12-24 hour days up to 7 days a week. Don the green jersey rainbowtrout

Ah I see. First years would be sacrificed. :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Please do present your wonderful ideas to Joe McHugh. Tell him you have the solution. Just don't bother teaching a whole year group and ditch a few subjects and it will be grand.

And there are no healthcare workers working 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. If there were, they would be dead.

wirelessdude01

teachinggal123 wrote: »

What paperwork are you talking about?

Still waiting to hear how you have such wide experience of this btw. Or was that the bit where you heard something from some friends in some ETB?

Still the same. You have yet to actually answer any question directly asked of you about how you are/have engaged your students during this crisis.

I personally know that in our school everyone is doing their bit for their students and can say the same of my close personal friends in other schools.

As regards your distain for your school and your colleagues, have you considered resigning and looking for a job in a school which would be a better fit for your own personality? Can't be nice to be so miserable in a school community that you obviously don't like. I know that I myself once refused a permanent job in a school as I knew I wouldn't be able to stick the management style of the principal.

JJJackal

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ah I see. First years would be sacrificed. :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Please do present your wonderful ideas to Joe McHugh. Tell him you have the solution. Just don't bother teaching a whole year group and ditch a few subjects and it will be grand.

And there are no healthcare workers working 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. If there were, they would be dead.

You would have to sacrifice first year classes. There is no easy solution.

PE cant be done with social distancing or can 30 pupils go to the gym hall and have continuous direct contact in a gym hall where 30 pupils were the previous hour. Be practical

I didnt say health care workers work 24 hours a day 7 days a week (although based on reports some consultants are on call 24 hours a day 7 days a week - but lets wash over that for now). I said healthcare workers work up to 12-24 hours a day.

Unfortunately 7 healthcare workers have died fighting COVID19 for us (may they RIP) and many more have been unwell. All that will be asked of teachers is to be a little more flexible and do a few extra hours for a few months

Again you havent offered alternaives??

Random sample

JJJackal wrote: »

I am surprised that "everyone" is pulling together - doesnt happen pre COVID

In the same way I am surprised that teachinggal123 thinks a significant majority arent doing anything

I would say secondary schools are more engaged.

If teachinggal123 is referring to a primary school I could see why there would be less on line engagement

Really?

Do all schools not have subject policies and plans and work together in their departments? We are under constant pressure from the inspectorate and management to coordinate our work. We do this all the time anyway, but it’s easier to share stuff when the delivery doesn’t have to be altered to suit our personalities and delivery styles.

We are also in weekly contact with management about what we are covering/which students are engaged.

km79

A timely reminder of how appreciative a lot of the public are to the extra efforts we are putting in behind closed doors.
I see on another thread that predictive grades is our doing as well. Sure aren't we all cock a hoop about that one!

JJJackal

Random sample wrote: »

Really?

Do all schools not have subject policies and plans and work together in their departments? We are under constant pressure from the inspectorate and management to coordinate our work. We do this all the time anyway, but it’s easier to share stuff when the delivery doesn’t have to be altered to suit our personalities and delivery styles.

We are also in weekly contact with management about what we are covering/which students are engaged.

So you are working the same number of hours or more now than when you were physically in class?

History Queen

JJJackal wrote: »

Agreed you cant half all but you could focus on leaving cert classes.

Cut out PE (not feasible at present anyway) and any non examinable subjects. Unfortunately 1st years would likely suffer here to make up the shortfall...

Pe is a leaving cert subject for some schools. Also the LC is a two year course so just focusing on 6th years creates another problem in the background with5th years (see current #leavingcert2021 campaign online).

Look we couldgo aroundin circles all day
At the end of the day until the Dept of Education issue returmto school guidelines teachers and principals can't get to work on figuring out howto implement them at a local level. We need to know what is required of us so we can then adapt our timetables/classrooms/teaching methodologies etc. At the moment we are in an information vacuum that seems to be being misinterpreted as us not wanting to adapt. Schools do not have the autonomy to curtail tuition days, change teacher contact hours, spend on building adaptations etc. without prior approval. When we get broad guidance we can then apply it at a local level or look for support in implementation.

JJJackal

History Queen wrote: »

Pe is a leaving cert subject for some schools. Also the LC is a two year course so just focusing on 6th years creates another problem in the background with5th years (see current #leavingcert2021 campaign online).

Look we couldgo aroundin circles all day
At the end of the day until the Dept of Education issue returmto school guidelines teachers and principals can't get to work on figuring out howto implement them at a local level. We need to know what is required of us so we can then adapt our timetables/classrooms/teaching methodologies etc. At the moment we are in an information vacuum that seems to be being misinterpreted as us not wanting to adapt. Schools do not have the autonomy to curtail tuition days, change teacher contact hours, spend on building adaptations etc. without prior approval. When we get broad guidance we can then apply it at a local level or look for support in implementation.

I agree this is a circular argument. For me this started with me proposing a potential way to get people back to normal pupil teaching contact hours.

I think you focus on students in descending order (Leaving Cert, Junior Cert, Fifth year, Second year, First year, Transition year) or whatever order was thought to be best by people in the know

wirelessdude01

History Queen wrote: »

Pe is a leaving cert subject for some schools. Also the LC is a two year course so just focusing on 6th years creates another problem in the background with5th years (see current #leavingcert2021 campaign online).

Look we couldgo aroundin circles all day
At the end of the day until the Dept of Education issue returmto school guidelines teachers and principals can't get to work on figuring out howto implement them at a local level. We need to know what is required of us so we can then adapt our timetables/classrooms/teaching methodologies etc. At the moment we are in an information vacuum that seems to be being misinterpreted as us not wanting to adapt. Schools do not have the autonomy to curtail tuition days, change teacher contact hours, spend on building adaptations etc. without prior approval. When we get broad guidance we can then apply it at a local level or look for support in implementation.

This 100%. I said it on our zoom staff meeting last week that talking about things for next September was in my opinion a waste of time until we got some form of guidance or guidelines from the Dept. We all know it will probably be vague and will have to be teased out at local level.