American justice system in Ireland

Ohio9

Many individuals in this forum seem to idolize the American justice system where people from disadvantaged backgrounds always get the chop and rich can get away with almost anything. People idolize how criminals get proper sentences of hundreds of years which punishes the criminal properly and acts as a detterent.
When was the last time you saw a rich person get sentenced to death, that for the same crime a poor person would be.
I am a sadist so I don't really mind but it is unfair.

Rufeo

Did David Drumm get nailed. I haven't been following the story lately.

Guy:Incognito

Ohio9 wrote: »

Many individuals in this forum seem to idolize the American justice system where people from disadvantaged backgrounds always get the chop and rich can get away with almost anything. .

Harvey Weinstein would be interested in your opinions.........

J. Marston

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Harvey Weinstein would be interested in your opinions.........

Exemption to the rule and it took decades of open secret sexual assaults to finally make a move on him.

Your Face

I can almost hear the Rage Against The Machine album playing in the background.

Rodney Bathgate

300 convictions, many committed while on bail or probation, but a sob story for the judge gets you a suspended sentence here.

tdf7187

Rufeo wrote: »

Did David Drumm get nailed. I haven't been following the story lately.

Drumm was the patsy and yes he was convicted. The fella above him was acquitted in rather strange circumstances.

Rodney Bathgate

tdf7187 wrote: »

Drumm was the patsy and yes he was convicted. The fella above him was acquitted in rather strange circumstances.

Can you clarify your use of patsy here?

Regardless of the outcome of others criminal cases, do you think he was unfairly tried and convicted?

I Am Nobody

I don't see how it would work here.Most prisons in the US are privatised and judges there have no problem giving maximum sentences. Here in the Nanny State,people would be up in arms of a harsh sentence. Even the judges here are too sympathic to the accused. While I agree with harsher sentencing here, I just don't see it being implemented.

jmreire

I Am Nobody wrote: »

I don't see how it would work here.Most prisons in the US are privatised and judges there have no problem giving maximum sentences. Here in the Nanny State,people would be up in arms of a harsh sentence. Even the judges here are too sympathic to the accused. While I agree with harsher sentencing here, I just don't see it being implemented.

I'd say that here its all about the Nr of prison spaces available....simply not enough to go round....so they are prioritized. Cost's a lot of money to keep some one locked up in Ireland.
The American system is a commercial enterprise for the most part, as far as I know. Costs are based "per unit",,,,,,,, with profit high on the agenda. :cool:

Chinasea

Hike up the policing/Gardai imo. Dublin city centre overrun with so called petty criminals with hundreds of convictions. Many are violent and downright dangerous.

Most of them actually feel entitled to help themselves to your/my property.

I Am Nobody

Chinasea wrote: »

Hike up the policing/Gardai imo. Dublin city centre overrun with so called petty criminals with hundreds of convictions. Many are violent and downright dangerous.

Most of them actually feel entitled to help themselves to your/my property.

But it is up to judges to decide the punishment not the Gardaí. Judges are too soft so their discretion should be taken away with mandatory sentencing. Otherwise there is no deterrent.

Huntergonzo

Not overly concerned about the American Judicial system and I wouldn't be a supporter of the death penatly either.

But I think our system can be too soft on major crime (murder, large scale financial fraud etc) and also on repeat offenders.

There's people roaming around over here with 100+ convictions FFS!! I mean when is enough, enough like, apparently never in Ireland.

Stovepipe

We have too few prisons,whereas every American county has a minimum of a county jail,which is usually used for local crimes and short term detention. The amount of times you hear of Irish people being sentenced to jail for nonpaymrent of fines and the gardai drag them up to Mountjoy,only to have them turned away for lack of places and their sentence is wiped out. Wouldnt happen in America. You'd get banged up in the local nick for a while, then sent to the county prison to serve your sentence.

Richard Hillman

America has a conveyor belt of criminals. Large areas in big cities that would make our worst places seem like a holiday destination. The amount of one parent and even no parent families are off the scale, particularly in Black areas. The kids don't even have a remote chance.

Latino areas of large crime end up being replenished with young solo illegal males coming from Mexico, Honduras etc. Where they cannot legally work, so take up working with drug gangs.

We do not have near the scale of that problem. The conveyor belt is miniscule. Its the same people committing the same crimes, in the the same places. Our crime problem would be pulverised with a couple of thousand extra prison places and some actual sentences.

I Am Nobody

But you can't compare the crimes in the US to here.We often hear of people up before the courts with 70+ convictions being granted bail.Why?Because of places available in the prisons. The well knowns know how to play the system and still get by.That needs to change to send a message. Reactivate Spike Island into a prison instead of a tourist attraction. For long term sentencings.

Make prison a sentencing instead of a holiday as it is for inmates.

Judge Judy, do you mean?

end of the road

I Am Nobody wrote: »

But you can't compare the crimes in the US to here.We often hear of people up before the courts with 70+ convictions being granted bail.Why?Because of places available in the prisons. The well knowns know how to play the system and still get by.That needs to change to send a message.

the message has already been sent that it is against the law and is not acceptable to commit a crime, the criminals already know but they don't care.
sentences should be increased absolutely along with other measures, but if we are doing it in the aim of sending a message then we are just wasting our time.

I Am Nobody wrote: »

Reactivate Spike Island into a prison instead of a tourist attraction. For long term sentencings.

apparently it was a very difficult and costly prison to work in it's day, and it was decided it was no longer tenable or viable to keep it open as such, hence it is unlikely to be reactivated as a prison.
it's gone as a prison and people just need to move on.

I Am Nobody wrote: »

Make prison a sentencing instead of a holiday as it is for inmates.

it already is a sentencing and not a holiday.
if individual inmates see it as a holiday, there isn't much you can do about that.

jmreire

end of the road wrote: »

the message has already been sent that it is against the law and is not acceptable to commit a crime, the criminals already know but they don't care.
sentences should be increased absolutely along with other measures, but if we are doing it in the aim of sending a message then we are just wasting our time.



apparently it was a very difficult and costly prison to work in it's day, and it was decided it was no longer tenable or viable to keep it open as such, hence it is unlikely to be reactivated as a prison.
it's gone as a prison and people just need to move on.



it already is a sentencing and not a holiday.
if individual inmates see it as a holiday, there isn't much you can do about that.

We can talk all day long about the problem of lawbreakers and punishment, but until such time as more prison's are built and become operational, it's all just shooting the breeze....and no one knows this better than the lawbreakers,,,,,no point in blaming the Judges for "soft" sentencing,,, they know the score only too well. Where are they going to send the Lawbreaker's, if they cannot jail them??? And what does anyone think of the chances ( especially now ) of more prisons being built? ( and without turning in into another Childrens Hospital Fiasco ?) It is as it is, and thats the reality, unfortunately.

angel eyes 2012

Stovepipe wrote: »

We have too few prisons,whereas every American county has a minimum of a county jail,which is usually used for local crimes and short term detention. The amount of times you hear of Irish people being sentenced to jail for nonpaymrent of fines and the gardai drag them up to Mountjoy,only to have them turned away for lack of places and their sentence is wiped out. Wouldnt happen in America.

Not correct, since the commencement of the Fines Act 2014 and subsequent introduction of the installment system, committals for non-payment of fines have largely collapsed.

The average cost of maintaining a prisoner in the State is 70k per prisoner per annum and our prisons are severely overcrowded. Are tax payers willing to pay more tax towards building prisons when prison doesn't act as a deterrent for crime, if it did, prisons would be empty.
I know I'd prefer the money to be invested in health care and preventative measures.

Any prison system that operates purely to make profit can never ensure the greater public need is being served and that is one reason why the US system is so flawed.

end of the road

jmreire wrote: »

We can talk all day long about the problem of lawbreakers and punishment, but until such time as more prison's are built and become operational, it's all just shooting the breeze....and no one knows this better than the lawbreakers,,,,,no point in blaming the Judges for "soft" sentencing,,, they know the score only too well. Where are they going to send the Lawbreaker's, if they cannot jail them??? And what does anyone think of the chances ( especially now ) of more prisons being built? ( and without turning in into another Childrens Hospital Fiasco ?) It is as it is, and thats the reality, unfortunately.

that's it in a nutshell.

Montage of Feck

I want an AD 2000 justice system.

AllForIt

Absolutely revolted by this once considered odd opinion but now commonplace, that all crimes committed by the lower social classes is as a result of inequality. Now who would say that, to push their agenda? Lefties and socialists, who else.

It's a nasty spiteful view that infer's that one's success in life comes at the expense of other's, for every bit of wealth one accrue's there is an equal opposite effect that someone else has to suffer, and that crime is somehow a result of that, and that it is somehow poetic justice when a successful person is a victim of crime perpetuated by a lower social class person.

All that is emotional blackmail spread by socialite's designed to make ppl feel guilty and thus be more willing to pay more in taxes to spread wealth down to the lower social classes to the level of giving them an income such that they don't have to work at all and thus don't have to do anything in their lives to further themselves in any way whatsoever.

It is my view the reason there are lower social classes at all is not fundamentally to do with inequality or lack of opportunity but because there a micro cultures in all society's are are completely incapable, mostly due to low IQ pervading in said micro cultures.

Now I am not saying that everyone born into the lower social classes is stupid, and I fully understand if they are not, it is harder for one to make it in life then if one was born into say a middle class background, and yes I agree that if they WANT to make it, they should be given more support, not least because societally it is in everyone's interest as many ppl as possible do well for themselves.

But I will not subscribe to this idea that because of one's personal social background this gives them some excuse to get involved in violent crimes, or any kind of disruptive social behavior, including petty crimes. If they do, that is more indicative of the societal circles they live in, and I don't think anyone can be absolved of their criminal decisions for their background, unless they were literally starving which is unlikely, but more like they want to buy the most expensive NIKE trainers, which the more aberrant version of socialist's think they should be able to do because that would be equality.

Geuze

Eamon Lynch, with over 500 convictions, was involved in a RTA in Co. Donegal:

"The court heard that Lynch, who previously lived at a number of addresses in Derry city, was believed to be travelling at 165 kph on a road with a 100 kph speed limit when he crashed into a car driven by the school leaver.

The Derry man, who had almost 500 previous convictions, had been drinking, had no driving licence, no valid NCT for his car, no tax or insurance when the accident occurred."

https://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/01/28/news/derry-man-with-worst-criminal-record-jailed-for-road-death-908777/

I want a system where Mr. Lynch isn't out and about with 500 convictions.



I also want a system where Eamon can't do what he did after the accident:

He sued the insurer of the young man killed in the accident, making a claim against the young man's parents car insurance policy.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/killer-driver-tried-to-sue-dead-teenager-s-insurance-firm-1.2973635


If that means a USA type system of: reach 100 convictions = automatic 10 year sentence, then I support that.

Geuze

jmreire wrote: »

We can talk all day long about the problem of lawbreakers and punishment, but until such time as more prison's are built and become operational, it's all just shooting the breeze....and no one knows this better than the lawbreakers,,,,,no point in blaming the Judges for "soft" sentencing,,, they know the score only too well. Where are they going to send the Lawbreaker's, if they cannot jail them??? And what does anyone think of the chances ( especially now ) of more prisons being built? ( and without turning in into another Childrens Hospital Fiasco ?) It is as it is, and thats the reality, unfortunately.

I'd say we have enough prison spaces.

But we put people in for not paying fines.

Instead, garnish their income, and free up the prison space.

Our justice system has an abundance of faults, but thank Christ it's not the American system.

YFlyer

Is the three strike rule popular in the US?

Losty Dublin

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Not correct, since the commencement of the Fines Act 2014 and subsequent introduction of the installment system, committals for non-payment of fines have largely collapsed.

The 2014 act isn't fit for purpose according to some judges.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/laws-aimed-at-cutting-numbers-jailed-for-unpaid-fines-not-working-1.4189706

Muahahaha

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Our crime problem would be pulverised with a couple of thousand extra prison places and some actual sentences.

Yeah I strongly believe that as well. Our prison capacity is circa 4,000. I reckon if they went and built Thornton Hall and increase capacity to circa 6,000 then crime would drop a fair bit. Theres a huge need to get criminals with multiple convictions off the streets, remove this cohort and suddenly lads doing burglaries as a career choice are removed from society.

Stovepipe

More spaces, harder regime (more isolation,less access to drugs in prison,less mixing), more jailing of white collar criminals.Make jail tougher than outside life.......I was watching Scannal on TV last night and the featured criminals were the Scissors sisters and what struck me was that, as they were being moved from prison van to court and vice versa, they were not cuffed or shackled in anyway and the prison staff were so casual with them. You wouldnt move a prisoner an inch in America without restraint.

NSAman

If you want a USA justice system (god forbid) then you had better build more prisons. Everyone who does anything wrong goes to jail. Be that the county jail or the federal prison.

Steal.. even a candy bar.... police called... jail.. court... prison/massive fine.

Judges dont give a damn if you have money or not (that is the job of your expensive lawyer to sort out)

your priest or a friend of the family stating hard times and your good character in court, do NOT get a chance here.

500 convictions dont exist here. Its time to get used to Orange after just a few .