Picard 1x10 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

I'm a bit skeptical of this as an excuse. There's almost certainly a couple of scenes they could have moved to part one to make room for these resolution scenes in part two.

Sure, but that's not writing. That's editing. I guess there might have been some concern that the episode would have resolved about mid-way, with too much of the run time dedicated to wrapping up every thread, like the end of Lord of the Rings.

The Megaphone

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Maybe it won't happen, but it's clear they don't mean for Picard's return to be a get out of jail free card.

What are the chances he gets stabbed in the heart again?

TheValeyard

The Megaphone wrote: »

What are the chances he gets stabbed in the heart again?

Lol. Maybe they clone the Nausicaan too!

Stark

I wonder if they recreated things like knee arthritis and lower back pain to make him feel even more at home in his new body. I can just picture Jurati now: "That bit was my idea. SQUEE!".

AtomicHorror

Stark wrote: »

I wonder if they recreated things like knee arthritis and lower back pain to make him feel even more at home in his new body. I can just picture Jurati now: "That bit was my idea. SQUEE!".

"Oh. Thanks. Hey, remember we talked about you turning yourself in for murder?"

AllForIt

It occurred to me the series should have been called - Star Trek Picard: The Search For Data.

No character was ever brought back to life as well, as plausibly, as Spock.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

"Oh. Thanks. Hey, remember we talked about you turning yourself in for murder?"

Yeah but she brought Picard back to life of sorts so she's even.


Oh btw, what was all that at the beginning with Burnham holding a flag as if she just conquered a planet.

Goodshape

AllForIt wrote: »

Oh btw, what was all that at the beginning with Burnham holding a flag as if she just conquered a planet.

A teaser for Star Trek: Discovery season 3.

At the end of the second season

they travelled ~1000 years into the future.

AllForIt

AllForIt wrote: »

Okay, my take.

I loved the scene with Picard and Data.

"A butterfly that lives forever is not a butterfly at all". Mortality vs immortality.

Does anyone know the background song in that scene, it was beautiful. I don't know it.

To answer my own question the original is by Bing Crosby.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MS-2_8AS_Q

More recent version by Eva Cassidy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfNDZXkUOY

I'd prefer the version in the episode whoever sang it - slower tempo.

edit: Found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QTKxGG3-4o
by Isa Briones

edit 2 : Holy cow! Isa Briones is Soji !

More info here: https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/who-sings-blue-skies-star-trek-picard-finale-data

Fasinating.

Brian?

I liked the bit with Data at the end. He was a great character played by a good actor, but they did the right thing it reincarnating him.

The rest was pure silly.

Are 7 and Rafi a thing now? That seems odd. What happened to Chakote?

Stark

Well it was obvious that there was zero chemistry between Seven of Nine and Chakotay and she was just using him as a means to learn more about human relationships. Didn't see lesbian awakening coming though.

Brian?

Stark wrote: »

Well it was obvious that there was zero chemistry between Seven of Nine and Chakotay and she was just using him as a means to learn more about human relationships. Didn't see lesbian awakening coming though.

Ah now, there was a lot of emotion in the last episode of Voyager. Maybe everyone in the future is Bi.

Rawr

Stark wrote: »

Well it was obvious that there was zero chemistry between Seven of Nine and Chakotay and she was just using him as a means to learn more about human relationships. Didn't see lesbian awakening coming though.

The sudden Chakotay / Seven thing is one major peeve I had about that Finale. They have years to build up a relationship for these characters, and then sort of went "F**k it, it's the finale, these two are single...Borg picnic and champaign!....romance arc done!"

In fairness to Seven's development, if you think about it she had the emotional experience of a young teenager. She was a kid when assimilated, the Borg essentially threw her into a growing tube, and she came out the other end as a full grown adult with all of the development in-between left out. To cope, she maintained an emotional straight-jacket of being a former Borg

I think it probably makes perfect sense that the Seven we see in Picard is a different person. It's been twenty years and she's now had time to grow up emotionally outside the bubble of USS Voyager. Perhaps in all of that time she has given herself the freedom to become more human and maybe part of that was discovering that she was Bi-sexual.

That....or maybe learning that Chakotay wasn't the only single person in the galaxy helped her re-evaluate her romantic life

Evade

Seven was in a relationship with a man in Unimatrix Zero too and she was much more Annika there than she was on Voyager.

I think Seven and Raffi was just put in there as an easily edited out checkbox more than anything else.

TheValeyard

Evade wrote: »

Seven was in a relationship with a man in Unimatrix Zero too and she was much more Annika there than she was on Voyager.

I think Seven and Raffi was just put in there as an easily edited out checkbox more than anything else.

Yeah it made zero sense.
Not to mention but in the alt future timeline her death causes chakotay endless grief he never gets over.

pixelburp

It was clumsy and both of us watching went "when did that happen??", but Seven can be bi without contradicting canon. A failure of writing than any checkbox IMO. She does seem to get a lot of last minute romances though. Funny how bisexuality just doesn't seem to exist anymore in fiction, or reality TBH. Not specific to this thread but I've noticed it doesn't seem to register as an option these days; like the 'B' in LGBT doesn't count, that the person hasn't made up their mind sorta thing. Maybe it's just me, and it's another topic anyway

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

but Seven can be bi without contradicting canon.

Technically anyone who hasn't explicitly said they aren't could, that doesn't really make it better.

TheValeyard

pixelburp wrote: »

It was clumsy and both of us watching went "when did that happen??", but Seven can be bi without contradicting canon. A failure of writing than any checkbox IMO. She does seem to get a lot of last minute romances though. Funny how bisexuality just doesn't seem to exist anymore in fiction, or reality TBH. Not specific to this thread but I've noticed it doesn't seem to register as an option these days; like the 'B' in LGBT doesn't count, that the person hasn't made up their mind sorta thing. Maybe it's just me, and it's another topic anyway

Think the B stands for Borg in this case

Goodshape

pixelburp wrote: »

Funny how bisexuality just doesn't seem to exist anymore in fiction, or reality TBH. Not specific to this thread but I've noticed it doesn't seem to register as an option these days; like the 'B' in LGBT doesn't count, that the person hasn't made up their mind sorta thing. Maybe it's just me, and it's another topic anyway

"Bi erasure" is absolutely a thing. Accusations of not having made up your mind or "just experimenting" are rife even within the LGBT+ community. And of course it's easy for onlookers to judge based on your current relationship - a "gay" relationship or a "straight" relationship - and just assume you are that, rather than acknowledging there is any space in-between.

I'd like to think people are less concerned about labelling and pigeonholing themselves or others in future. And anyway, they just held hands. Implied some attraction but maybe they just fancied a roll in the space-hay. Slim pickings on that ship.

AllForIt

I think the problem with this holding hands thing out of the blue is that it wasn't developed or hinted at previously which imo is result of the series being so short, so I think it's a case of trying to pack too much into so short a series.

AtomicHorror

Stark wrote: »

Well it was obvious that there was zero chemistry between Seven of Nine and Chakotay and she was just using him as a means to learn more about human relationships. Didn't see lesbian awakening coming though.

Evidence so far seems to suggest Seven is bisexual, which I don't think has been explored in much depth in Star Trek previously. So yeah, it's a bit out of nowhere, but it could be an interesting point for season 2.

Brian? wrote: »

Are 7 and Rafi a thing now? That seems odd. What happened to Chakote?

I think most of us assumed he was out of the picture pretty early on- whatever Seven's orientation, she makes no reference to him and very much seems to be out on her own from the get-go.

TheValeyard wrote: »

Yeah it made zero sense.
Not to mention but in the alt future timeline her death causes chakotay endless grief he never gets over.

Maybe it still has caused him endless grief, but you don't stay in a relationship with someone as bland as Chakotay just to avoid hurting him. I would imagine dating Chakotay is little different to owning a serviceable, but ultimately uninspired, beige bedside table.

It is possible, based on Seven's recent history, that she euthanized Chakotay in order to reduce the mean boredom level of the Alpha Quadrant.

jasonb

NuMarvel wrote: »

So, questions:

How the blazes did Narissa get from the bridge of a Romulan ship to the cube? I mean other than fulfilling the plot requirement of giving 7 someone to fight.

This threw me as well, until I remembered the Narissa never left the cube, she was captured by the Borg Drones and then her brother found her on the cube after it crashed. It was Oh on the bridge on the Romulan ship. The first time it cut to her I thought it was Narissa on the bridge, but I realised the second time that it was Oh.

GSPfan

That finale is missing about 5 minutes of a montage where all of the crew say they will stick around and relax for a few weeks while the federation legislates changes to the Synth ban.

In those few weeks/month Picard and Soji develop their father daughter relationship, Raffi and Seven are seen laughing and flirting, Jurati gets punished by losing her professional credentials but due to a brain invasion she gets let off the hook for the maddox thing (just like Garak got away without facing murder charges when he killed someone on Empok Nor), Rios puts his demons to rest by spending time with the androids his captain murdered, Elnor just continues to be a good guy, and Narek gets let go on his way to turn back up in season 2 as a frienemy.

Then if it cut to the scene on the ship it would have made perfect sense.

CramCycle

I havent read the entire thread so apologies if this has been covereed. I read the first 50 or so posts. I though it was an OK episode. Yes, DS9 special effects were better when they had them. The scenes with Data were great and emotional but ther e was one sticking point in them.

Data tells picard to go into the light, a brief explanation of why. It is so against charcter that he done it, rather than just spend the last moments with friends. I then realise after the fact that if he doesn't go out, Dats will be immortal. And here it is, one of Sci Fis greatest questions, is a copy of you, or a complete replicate, if you cease to exist, still you? Picard can't possibly feel he is Picard, he isn't, Picard is dead, he is a new entity, almost identical to the old Picard.

If they could have Picard go back in to spend those fleeting moments with Data rather than his memory of Picard, that would have been beautiful but the fact that they went for this, rather than just leave Picards potential death hanging over him is a cheat and lazy.

Other than those last few minutes really liked the episode, aprt from the sh1t SFX, Riker was good (if completely unbbelievabel they would have given him the position at such short notice).

Brian?

AllForIt wrote: »

I think the problem with this holding hands thing out of the blue is that it wasn't developed or hinted at previously which imo is result of the series being so short, so I think it's a case of trying to pack too much into so short a series.

This. I couldn't care less what her sexuality is. But some story telling would be nice.

Evade

The whole series needed another round of refinement.

The Ó Romuláins' contributions could easily have been given to Raffi and Rios giving them development over the first two episodes. Maybe not the super secret secret police revelation but Picard calling a friend in the Romulan Empire could have gotten around that or drop it all together because it's dumb.

The Romulan Lannisters should have been one character, unless they really wanted that incest vibe, with the antagonistic between them scenes changed to communications with Oh.

The reclamation project could have been dropped for what seems like the more interesting idea of former Borg being harvested for parts by criminal syndicates. Have Seven, Hugh, Soji, and Romulan Lannister as Fenris Rangers working against the criminals.

The Megaphone

Evade wrote: »

The Ó Romuláins'

Given how bad this has been, I've a feeling that in Season 2 we are going to find out that they are either Space Legolas' or the Romulan Lannister's parents!

Rawr

The Megaphone wrote: »

Given how bad this has been, I've a feeling that in Season 2 we are going to find out that they are either Space Legolas' or the Romulan Lannister's parents!

Na, they'll be spun off to their own show on TG4: "Ros na Romulús"

pah

GSPfan wrote: »

That finale is missing about 5 minutes of a montage where all of the crew say they will stick around and relax for a few weeks while the federation legislates changes to the Synth ban.

In those few weeks/month Picard and Soji develop their father daughter relationship, Raffi and Seven are seen laughing and flirting, Jurati gets punished by losing her professional credentials but due to a brain invasion she gets let off the hook for the maddox thing (just like Garak got away without facing murder charges when he killed someone on Empok Nor), Rios puts his demons to rest by spending time with the androids his captain murdered, Elnor just continues to be a good guy, and Narek gets let go on his way to turn back up in season 2 as a frienemy.

Then if it cut to the scene on the ship it would have made perfect sense.

Raffis estranged son? Another thing that could have been dropped altogether

A lot of things could have made more sense but the care to make it more coherent was secondary to moving the plot along IMO

The story jumped ALL over the place at times. I do wish there was more flushing out of characters & ideas, less romulincest, less stupid magic cgi CSI-Picard etc


Your example above is exactly what I find to be so frustrating about the storytelling here. It is so rushed. Picard is dead, sacrificed his life to save the synths - 4 minutes later he is smiling on the bridge with an "engage"

You don't know if it's just those 4 minutes that have passed or 4 hours, 4 days, 4 weeks??? Just move along to the next scene. The lack of reaction on screen from the crew to his resurrection is also baffling given that 90 seconds earlier we were supposed to believe they were crying over him?

AllForIt

pah wrote: »

Raffis estranged son? Another thing that could have been dropped altogether

A lot of things could have made more sense but the care to make it more coherent was secondary to moving the plot along IMO

My problem with that was not that is was so brief (thankfully it was) but that Star Trek was never a Soap Opera. There are enough Soap Operas and Sci-Fi always provided for me a relief from all that mind numbing kind of drama.

Bobtheman

If they start this crack of multiple sexualities in star trek then I'm out. Have enough of people proclaiming theirs in the real world. A bit like the joke but how do you know somebody is a vegan ? You don't - they tell you. Now you have otherwise terribly boring people proclaiming their sexuality changes just to sound interesting.

Brian?

Bobtheman wrote: »

If they start this crack of multiple sexualities in star trek then I'm out. Have enough of people proclaiming theirs in the real world. A bit like the joke but how do you know somebody is a vegan ? You don't - they tell you. Now you have otherwise terribly boring people proclaiming their sexuality changes just to sound interesting.

That's not how sexuality works.

Plus no one us "proclaiming" anything. They're just showing romantic relationships, so just happen to be same sex. I don't see the problem.

I started this as a critique of the story telling, nothing more. I regret it now.

pah

Show all kinds of sexuality, just write better!!!!

Remember Riker was attracted to some asexual one back in the TNG days

CramCycle

Just my opinion, the Picard we see at the end is not Picard. The Picard we know has lived his life and passed on, he is in fact dead. This Golem will act and behave almost identical to Picard but it is still not him. He is dead and this is just people in his universe refusing to let go. The same with Data, Data sacrificed himself, he died, this is nowt but a copy. It was the best part of the show but Picard is dead.

TheValeyard

pah wrote: »

Show all kinds of sexuality, just write better!!!!

Remember Riker was attracted to some asexual one back in the TNG days

Lol. Think Riker was attracted to anything with breasts

corkie

pah wrote: »

Show all kinds of sexuality, just write better!!!!

Remember Riker was attracted to some asexual one back in the TNG days

Melinda Culea as Soren!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melinda_Culea

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outcast_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

PhiloCypher

Bobtheman wrote: »

If they start this crack of multiple sexualities in star trek then I'm out. Have enough of people proclaiming theirs in the real world. A bit like the joke but how do you know somebody is a vegan ? You don't - they tell you. Now you have otherwise terribly boring people proclaiming their sexuality changes just to sound interesting.

How did you ever become a star trek fan with a worldview like that.

odyssey06

pah wrote: »

Show all kinds of sexuality, just write better!!!!
Remember Riker was attracted to some asexual one back in the NG days

Was a bit of a cheat though, casting a female actress...

Bonus A-Team Star Trek crossover image!

AllForIt

pah wrote: »

Show all kinds of sexuality, just write better!!!!

Remember Riker was attracted to some asexual one back in the TNG days

I recall that episode very well when it was broadcast on RTE originally. It stuck in my head because of the sad ending where her sexuality was taken away so she went back to being asexual and thus wasn't interested in a romantic relationship with Riker any longer. Often episodes end on a happy note but that one pointedly didn't.

That story had personal correlations for me because back in those days it was okay to talk about 'gay conversion' therapy, where if it was possible it would have the same sad outcome.

Bobtheman

PhiloCypher wrote: »

How did you ever become a star trek fan with a worldview like that.

Have whatever sexuality you like just don't drone on and on or tweet about it. That's the modern way. But you are right about them showing rather than telling it.

CramCycle

2 friends interlocked hands, maybe it was romance, maybe it wasn't. How is this a talking point. Christ on a bike, I found the Captain and Smart person kissing more jarring considering her behaviour.

NuMarvel

Bobtheman wrote: »

Have whatever sexuality you like just don't drone on and on or tweet about it. That's the modern way.

Did you get this worked up when Rios and Jurati got together. Or that when we first saw Dahj, she was with her boyfriend? Or all those times Soji and Narek were in bed? Or when we saw Troi and Riker?

And that's just in these last 10 episodes. Let's not even start on the other Star Trek series.

Star Trek has never shied away from showing sexuality. What's different these days is that it's not just heterosexuality. And for a show that's about showing a positive future for humanity, where we have left behind old prejudices, that's a good thing.

NuMarvel

CramCycle wrote: »

2 friends interlocked hands, maybe it was romance, maybe it wasn't. How is this a talking point. Christ on a bike, I found the Captain and Smart person kissing more jarring considering her behaviour.

It's a talking point for most because it's ether poor writing if it was meant to be romantic, or poor acting/direction if it was meant to be platonic. I think most people would be making the same comments if it had been Soji and Elnor.

It's a talking point for a few others for different reasons, who probably wouldn't be making the same comments if it had been Soji and Elnor

nearly wish they'd left all the romance out instead of making a mess of it. captain "i dont mind if you killed someone and it definitely doesnt trigger any ptsd from my own captain doing it" and jurati, and two people randomly holding hands. if they were at least on the bridge and starting to give each other eyes or something that would be more of a foundation and we could have more fun speculating

Brian?

CramCycle wrote: »

2 friends interlocked hands, maybe it was romance, maybe it wasn't. How is this a talking point. Christ on a bike, I found the Captain and Smart person kissing more jarring considering her behaviour.

I only brought it up as an example of very poor story telling. I regret ever mentioning it.

At least the captain and yer wan had previous. But no one seems bothered any more that she killed someone.

Evade

CramCycle wrote: »

2 friends interlocked hands, maybe it was romance, maybe it wasn't. How is this a talking point. Christ on a bike, I found the Captain and Smart person kissing more jarring considering her behaviour.

Even that's pushing it. They'd said maybe two sentences to each other up to that point. If there was suppose to be a short time skip before that scene some indication of it would have been nice. Adding "after a few weeks of deliberation" before Soji said the synth ban was lifted would have been more than enough.

CramCycle

Brian? wrote: »

I only brought it up as an example of very poor story telling. I regret ever mentioning it.

At least the captain and yer wan had previous. But no one seems bothered any more that she killed someone.

They forgave that really quick, even the fact that she apparently loved the guy seems not to have made anyone flinch. If I was the cap I'd be playing the let's just be friends angle

Stark

There was copious amounts of alcohol consumed just before the interlocking hands scene. Nuff said. They just happened to be the two people on the ship with the most fondness for it. Star Trek pushing alcosexuality in our faces.

Bobtheman

NuMarvel wrote: »

Did you get this worked up when Rios and Jurati got together. Or that when we first saw Dahj, she was with her boyfriend? Or all those times Soji and Narek were in bed? Or when we saw Troi and Riker?

And that's just in these last 10 episodes. Let's not even start on the other Star Trek series.

Star Trek has never shied away from showing sexuality. What's different these days is that it's not just heterosexuality. And for a show that's about showing a positive future for humanity, where we have left behind old prejudices, that's a good thing.

Look I'm not getting drawn into a debate about sexuality.
It's one thing trek being ahead of the curve it's another thing virtue signaling. Tbh I think a lot of the new forms of sexuality are pure fiction but that's only a personal opinion. Indulgence. But I could be Wrong

Remember what's acceptable now does not make it right. 40 years ago harassing single mothers was all the rage. Gay reversal therapy legal in all US states. Etc. Nobody can say that for instance allowing kids operations below the age of 18 is correct to transform etc. So let's just park our self righteousness. I'm always more interested in miniority views. Back in the 1980s I waded into a few fights for gay friends while the solid majority condemned me.
And no I have no issue with Riker bed hopping or any adults doing what they want in private just stop telling the world about it or virtue signalling. I get enough of it in school where we got circulars about non gender uniforms while we waited for decent IT and psychologists for suicidal kids

NuMarvel

Bobtheman wrote: »

Look I'm not getting drawn into a debate about sexuality.
It's one thing trek being ahead of the curve it's another thing virtue signaling. Tbh I think a lot of the new forms of sexuality are pure fiction but that's only a personal opinion. Indulgence. But I could be Wrong

Remember what's acceptable now does not make it right. 40 years ago harassing single mothers was all the rage. Gay reversal therapy legal in all US states. Etc. Nobody can say that for instance allowing kids operations below the age of 18 is correct to transform etc. So let's just park our self righteousness. I'm always more interested in miniority views. Back in the 1980s I waded into a few fights for gay friends while the solid majority condemned me.
And no I have no issue with Riker bed hopping or any adults doing what they want in private just stop telling the world about it or virtue signalling. I get enough of it in school where we got circulars about non gender uniforms while we waited for decent IT and psychologists for suicidal kids

A lengthy reply about sexuality from someone who doesn't want to get into a debate about it... :rolleyes:

BTW, if you have issues with "virtue signalling", you really haven't watched a lot of Star Trek. Next time you see the original 60s series, have a think about why exactly there are black, Asian, and Russian characters on the bridge.

Bobtheman

There are real issues and there are virtue signalers