HSE taking over private hospital

I know we are in pandemic mode now, but one thing struck me over Simon Harris today, government/ HSE now taking over Private hospitals.

Why can't they do this anyway?? I never understood the need for the two teir system here, all staff are trained up on the taxpayer money, or else come from over seas on jobs, work as public consultants for huge money but little Time back.

Why ??

van_beano

Since we’re all gone to a one tier system for the duration of this pandemic should all private health insurance subs be frozen for the intervening period?

Harry Palmr

This is the pretext for a socialist land grab.

/conspiracy or constipation?

Pacifico

Sounds good to me...would save me €250 a month

Conall Cernach

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

I know we are in pandemic mode now, but one thing struck me over Simon Harris today, government/ HSE now taking over Private hospitals.

Why can't they do this anyway?? I never understood the need for the two teir system here, all staff are trained up on the taxpayer money, or else come from over seas on jobs, work as public consultants for huge money but little Time back.

Why ??

Not true at all. Health Care Assistants for example usually pay for their own training,

Allinall

It wouldn’t make any difference.

Same number of patients- same number of beds.

actuallylike

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

.
Why can't they do this anyway??

Because the hospitals have agreed to let them have them for free

Leg End Reject

It's an unprecedented crisis that public hospitals can't cope with alone.

Count yourself lucky if you can still afford your health insurance, public hospitals will be scrambling to clear the backlog of diagnostic and elective procedures that will be cancelled over the course of this.

IAMAMORON

I wouldn't panic about it. I spoke to a Sinn Féin councillor and they said if I vote for them they will pay for everything. They are getting me a gaff, increasing my dole, getting me cheaper dental care, getting me a medical card, building better roads, ehhhhh and other stuff.

They said Leo would pay for it because the posh guys have to.

Deadly.

Atlantic Dawn

So could you present at Blackrock Clinic tonight and look to get some procedure done that before today could only be done privately?

mfceiling

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

So could you present at Blackrock Clinic tonight and look to get some procedure done that before today could only be done privately?

Course you can't.
This is to free up beds with the unprecedented demand that's going to be placed on our health system.

You don't seriously believe you can rock up to Blackrock tomorrow and jump a queue because you want to get a procedure carried out?

Have to admire FG for taking on policies,which to me see completly alien to their ethos

I imagine PBP are in deeply confused territory now,or have.recruited simon harris as a sleeper agent years ago

JustAThought

mfceiling wrote: »

Course you can't.
This is to free up beds with the unprecedented demand that's going to be placed on our health system.

You don't seriously believe you can rock up to Blackrock tomorrow and jump a queue because you want to get a procedure carried out?

Typically there are no ques in Blackrock - or waiting lists. You pay you play. Usual terms and circumstances apply. But you won’t be handed a 25k bill when you come out of Beaumont - if you make it.

I still think the premis behind the ability to remove the 2 tiers though speaks volumes.
We can do it if we want to.

And no, I checked, they only see you for corona virus related issues, but from speaking to a doctor friend ( training done in Ireland, tax payer) who works at Aut Even, if you have insurance you still be able to opt where to go.

Wanderer78

Skyrimaddict wrote:

Why ??

Two tier systems are best, it creates a more efficient health care system overall, whereby all citizens benefit, particularly the less well off, apparently so anyhow!

The chan chan man

I would hate to actually be seriously ill at the moment with something completely unrelated to covid-19. You can forget about treatment!

Wanderer78

The chan chan man wrote:

I would hate to actually be seriously ill at the moment with something completely unrelated to covid-19. You can forget about treatment!

I some how doubt that, for example, I'd imagine cancer patients are still being treated etc, but maybe with less contact time

rock22

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Two tier systems are best, it creates a more efficient health care system overall, whereby all citizens benefit, particularly the less well off, apparently so anyhow!

Absolutely not. There is huge inefficiencies and financial transfers from the public to the private system. I have worked in the health service for close to 40 years and can say , without hesitation, that out two tier system is the worst of both worlds.

Wanderer78

rock22 wrote:

Absolutely not. There is huge inefficiencies and financial transfers from the public to the private system. I have worked in the health service for close to 40 years and can say , without hesitation, that out two tier system is the worst of both worlds.

Of course it's not true, it's a complete pack of lies, and it's blatantly obvious to, but sit back and watch the people that believe this nonsense post their admiration for the two tier.

y0ssar1an22

rock22 wrote: »

Absolutely not. There is huge inefficiencies and financial transfers from the public to the private system. I have worked in the health service for close to 40 years and can say , without hesitation, that out two tier system is the worst of both worlds.

is the idea of private hospitals not that they are run like businesses? the bottom line. they dont have the inefficiencies of a public, but charge you for that privilege.

Always thought that was the idea.

Wanderer78

y0ssar1an22 wrote:

is the idea of private hospitals not that they are run like businesses? the bottom line. they dont have the inefficiencies of a public, but charge you for that privilege.

Strangly enough, there's plenty of 'inefficiencies' in the private sector also, the concept of the private sector being an inefficient free zone is a load of nonsense, it's text book nonsense

y0ssar1an22

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

is the idea of private hospitals not that they are run like businesses? the bottom line. they dont have the inefficiencies of a public, but charge you for that privilege.

Always thought that was the idea.

It's the idea, but not a reality.

Reality is lots of workers from HSE would transfer over, it's not like private hospital recruitment starts in second level and pays for this training. It's all tax payer money

PhilOssophy

Pacifico wrote: »

Sounds good to me...would save me €250 a month

How? You'll have a lot more to pay on your PRSI in a single tier system..

tjhook

PhilOssophy wrote: »

How? You'll have a lot more to pay on your PRSI in a single tier system..

And that's the nub of the issue. The overall health system (public and private combined) currently works using a combination of public and private funding. And that's not just private insurance premiums to private facilities. It's also income such as charging hefty fees when a patient with insurance uses a public bed.

I doubt the overall system would be better after the removal of private funding (and the influx of previously private patients).

Proposed solutions so far seem to reply on the state providing extra funds to effectively pay for private insurance for lots more people. I doubt that's a runner for the foreseeable future.

listermint

van_beano wrote: »

Since we’re all gone to a one tier system for the duration of this pandemic should all private health insurance subs be frozen for the intervening period?

My health sub is the last thing I'm worrying about at this present moment in time.


Im more concerned people who need the care get it. Get well and get home.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

I know we are in pandemic mode now, but one thing struck me over Simon Harris today, government/ HSE now taking over Private hospitals.

Why can't they do this anyway?? I never understood the need for the two teir system here, all staff are trained up on the taxpayer money, or else come from over seas on jobs, work as public consultants for huge money but little Time back.

Why ??

Financial reasons. Ie they would have to spend more to keep the private hospitals working.

Instead they spend what they want to spend (public expenditure) and people with health insurance spend more on insurance and insurance pays the private hospitals.

_Brian

I genuinely can’t understand what problem people have with private hospitals.
Private hospitals are there to cater for people who have the money to pay for a better service.

My problem is with private patients in public hospitals and consultants using public hospitals to see their private patients. If the public hospitals were just for public use it would free up more resources. Letting private patients off to private hospitals also frees up resources.

People are cribbing about the wrong problem.

Last thing.

How much are the private hospitals charging the government to use their facilities during this one tier system ?

listermint

_Brian wrote: »

I genuinely can’t understand what problem people have with private hospitals.
Private hospitals are there to cater for people who have the money to pay for a better service.

My problem is with private patients in public hospitals and consultants using public hospitals to see their private patients. If the public hospitals were just for public use it would free up more resources. Letting private patients off to private hospitals also frees up resources.

People are cribbing about the wrong problem.

Last thing.

How much are the private hospitals charging the government to use their facilities during this one tier system ?

There's no such thing as private hospitals in this country none nothing zero.

The title private comes with caveats in Ireland. Much the same as private schools.

The tax payer is propping up the system.

If you think private hospitals could stand on their own two feet you haven't a notion horse.

tjhook

listermint wrote: »

There's no such thing as private hospitals in this country none nothing zero.

The title private comes with caveats in Ireland. Much the same as private schools.

The tax payer is propping up the system.

If you think private hospitals could stand on their own two feet you haven't a notion horse.

It goes both ways though.

The private patient is paying the same taxes and PRSI (possibly more, since I would guess the average private patient pays more taxes than the average public patient).

The public system depends on a cohort of patients not using the public facilities their taxes pay for, or paying on the double (e.g. nightly public bed fees) if they do happen to use those public facilities.

Remove the private system and see if the public system will be able to cope without a major injection of public monies.

Beasty

tjhook wrote: »

Remove the private system and see if the public system will be able to cope without a major injection of public monies.

I think it's something in the order of €3bn+ a year. Remove those direct contributions by individuals and employers and the whole taxpayer population has to stump it up. If not many of the specialists will relocate to a place where they can earn more than they can get in the public sector over here. Hence the better off end up even better off (by not paying directly for their healthcare) and the worse off pay more in taxes

Economically it would be a disaster

listermint

tjhook wrote: »

It goes both ways though.

The private patient is paying the same taxes and PRSI (possibly more, since I would guess the average private patient pays more taxes than the average public patient).

The public system depends on a cohort of patients not using the public facilities their taxes pay for, or paying on the double (e.g. nightly public bed fees) if they do happen to use those public facilities.

Remove the private system and see if the public system will be able to cope without a major injection of public monies.

It's not an equal relationship.

It's fundamentally flawed.

listermint

Beasty wrote: »

I think it's something in the order of €3bn+ a year. Remove those direct contributions by individuals and employers and the whole taxpayer population has to stump it up. If not many of the specialists will relocate to a place where they can earn more than they can get in the public sector over here. Hence the better off end up even better off (by not paying directly for their healthcare) and the worse off pay more in taxes

Economically it would be a disaster

Yep you always here that stuff.


Specialists will relocate elsewhere. There's never examples of this though.....


You got any?


The good bankers will go elsewhere


The best doctors will go elsewhere.


Yada yada

tjhook

listermint wrote: »

Yep you always here that stuff.


Specialists will relocate elsewhere. There's never examples of this though.....


You got any?


The good bankers will go elsewhere


The best doctors will go elsewhere.


Yada yada

Nurses? Conditions got worse, and a load of them left. I see no reason others wouldn't do the same.

Atlantic Dawn

Those waiting on trolleys in public hospitals have gone from 600 a few weeks ago down to a handful. It's clear majority of these are chancers who don't need to go hospital at all, no sign of them when there's a whiff of Corona in the air. Public system shouldn't facilitate them, they need to see a GP at most.

Harry Palmr

Harry Palmr wrote: »

This is the pretext for a socialist land grab.

/conspiracy or constipation?

Reminds me of an article and quote I read last week...

Everyone's a socialist during a pandemic

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/opinion/coronavirus-socialism.html


Although, from my limited knowledge, by the Marxist definition Socialism is an economic state of transition and not the nightmare fuel for conservative types and capitalists which it can be believed to be.

Socialism, I could take pieces of that and certainly as an Irish citizen enjoy many elements of it already. I really think that 'Socialism/Socialist' gets a bad rep and doesn't deserve its curse word reputation or status. It's Communism I would be extremely wary of, but tbh we just wouldn't be able to implement it here for many reasons, and unless our EU lizard overlords sweep in with it in the future it's not really an immediate concern for me.

Good to see everyone pulling together at this moment of need, public and private, but I imagine the private hospitals will be back doing their own thing after the pandemic. However, many things will likely be different or change as a result of the pandemic, and you might see some positives and lessons learned for our health services. If they work together for this and unprecedented lines of communication and workflow are opened, maybe they can do it again in future.

But...

Now we're back to the pretext for a Socialist land grab :eek: :pac:

crazy maisie

Just out of curiosity. How many private hospitals are there for them to use? Is there a figure on it?

is_that_so

crazy maisie wrote: »

Just out of curiosity. How many private hospitals are there for them to use? Is there a figure on it?

Here's a link on it, although just with bed numbers.

https://www.thejournal.ie/private-hospitals-ireland-coronavirus-5056334-Mar2020/

Beasty

listermint wrote: »

Yep you always here that stuff.


Specialists will relocate elsewhere. There's never examples of this though.....


You got any?


The good bankers will go elsewhere


The best doctors will go elsewhere.


Yada yada

I would happily relocate elsewhere if my taxes went up significantly. I have contributed massive amounts to government income since I came over here 13 years ago. I could relocate tomorrow if I really wanted to, as I already have living accommodation available elsewhere

If you take away the private income of surgeons many would, and indeed I'm sure many would not relocate. Regardless though, you do understand that the public sector needs much more money without private patients paying directly, and this could only come in the form of increased taxation?

Sky King

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Why can't they do this anyway??

Why ??

So some guy comes along with his own money and establishes a private business, and the state just takes it off him?

mountai

Having experienced treatment under both public and private systems , I would submit the following for consideration . Without a doubt , I found the private system far more efficient at every level , why ? . The private system is run as a business , where costs are closely monitored , union demarcation doesnt exist , facilities are far superior and cleanliness is way better . The private sector is not weighed down with needless layers of management , both middle and particularly top line . I would hope that because of this temporary new merging , that the public system would benefit , but fear that the private system will be dragged down because if the HSE get their claws into things , we better watch out .

Geuze

crazy maisie wrote: »

Just out of curiosity. How many private hospitals are there for them to use? Is there a figure on it?

There are 18 that are members of the PHA.

http://privatehospitals.ie/

Skyrimaddict

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

It's the idea, but not a reality.

Reality is lots of workers from HSE would transfer over, it's not like private hospital recruitment starts in second level and pays for this training. It's all tax payer money

Perhaps, but which taxpayer?

The last three doctors I had at the Galway Clinic weren't Irish, and their qualifications were obtained abroad. People here seem to think all the doctors in the private sector are Irish trained... they're not. Especially when it comes to specialists, often they've studied abroad at their own expense.

I can't imagine many posters here would be complaining about a doctor trained in Germany but works in Ireland...

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Perhaps, but which taxpayer?

The last three doctors I had at the Galway Clinic weren't Irish, and their qualifications were obtained abroad. People here seem to think all the doctors in the private sector are Irish trained... they're not. Especially when it comes to specialists, often they've studied abroad at their own expense.

I can't imagine many posters here would be complaining about a doctor trained in Germany but works in Ireland...

And my earlier post mentioned this, that we have numbers who come from overseas, but work both public and private.
I'm lucky I can afford a good Private package, but recently bring able to pay directly meant I was seen in weeks.
I don't think that's fair, simple.

kenmm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

How? You'll have a lot more to pay on your PRSI in a single tier system..

But presumably a lot less in premiums once you do away with the admin costs and that pesky profit that companies need..

IAMAMORON

kenmm wrote: »

But presumably a lot less in premiums once you do away with the admin costs and that pesky profit that companies need..

The main problem with nationalising a healthcare system is that you tunnel treatments into one vacuum. I have cousins in the north who have received different drug treatments and cancer drugs to family in the south because the NHS is supplied differently. This matters.

The concept that a nationalised system would eradicate health insurance profits is garbage. The treatments won't get any cheaper. If anything having a privatised health system allows patients in the south to get better treatments. Under the NHS the drug companies plamás procurement officers who are essentially civil servants on rubbish wages. Corruption is rife.

The current system we have actually gives citizens more choice. You can spend big money if you like or you can opt to have no health insurance at all. But everyone still has options, whether you are rich poor or otherwise.

Having a private system allows for better healthcare. People will work harder and give a better service for a profit. As a potential patient if I need treatment I want it done by someone who is working for me, not for a government.

Mad_maxx

rock22 wrote: »

Absolutely not. There is huge inefficiencies and financial transfers from the public to the private system. I have worked in the health service for close to 40 years and can say , without hesitation, that out two tier system is the worst of both worlds.

for patients ( and tax payers ) it is

for consultants , its like having your bread buttered on both sides

Atlantic Dawn

Is there a point in having private health insurance now if the service you will receive in a private hospital will be limited?

Mad_maxx

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps, but which taxpayer?

The last three doctors I had at the Galway Clinic weren't Irish, and their qualifications were obtained abroad. People here seem to think all the doctors in the private sector are Irish trained... they're not. Especially when it comes to specialists, often they've studied abroad at their own expense.

I can't imagine many posters here would be complaining about a doctor trained in Germany but works in Ireland...

having met a few of the non irish doctors in the Galway Clinic ,id be sceptical of how much actual medical training they had in their country of origin

kippy

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Those waiting on trolleys in public hospitals have gone from 600 a few weeks ago down to a handful. It's clear majority of these are chancers who don't need to go hospital at all, no sign of them when there's a whiff of Corona in the air. Public system shouldn't facilitate them, they need to see a GP at most.

Without a lot of research it is very difficult to back up at assertion. And I have no doubt s lot of research will be done on it however I would suggest that the significant drop in numbers is a combination of social distancing which has a direct impact on:
Lack of pubs and clubs/alcohol related issues.
Lack of sporting events/training.
Less people in the workplace/travelling.
Less risky behaviour in general.

IAMAMORON

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is there a point in having private health insurance now if the service you will receive in a private hospital will be limited?

It is a very valid point. But these are unforeseen circumstances. Everyone needs to be treated where possible.

No doctor is going to mistreat you based on your healthcare plan either. They get paid the same if you have a plan or don't.

Skyrimaddict

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

And my earlier post mentioned this, that we have numbers who come from overseas, but work both public and private.
I'm lucky I can afford a good Private package, but recently bring able to pay directly meant I was seen in weeks.
I don't think that's fair, simple.

It is what it is. We live in a money driven society. Those who pay get extra benefits. Those who don't pay extra, get the standard care.

I've been paying private health insurance all my adult life. I've never needed it. Never been seriously sick or needed any operations. My visits are due to my shaking disorder, which aren't covered under the private or public health coverage, so I pay extra for that.

The point is that I could cry about the waste of money, or simply accept that I've been paying all this time so that when I do need it, I'll get what I need fairly quickly. I've paid quite a lot of money over the last 25 years so that I will be seen quickly. And the specialists I need generally aren't in Public care, except as consultants, so I'd be paying through the nose anyway.

Personally it's not terribly fair for anyone, myself included... because life, well, isn't terribly fair.