Supporting craft breweries

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121596147#Comment_121596147

I haven't had it for a while (pains me to say it somewhat but Guinness 0.0 my regular n/a option now), but I always thought the Roadworks "Early Start" was decent enough - particularly at it's price point.

Pen Rua

Speaking of Kinnegar. Mightily impressed by their BAP 37, a low alcohol (1%) IPA.

Beanstalk

^^ Its really good I'm really enjoying it too!

Regarding Scraggy Bay, it hasn't really changed at all but our palates are probably more used to hazy tropical forward IPAS and so every time i go back to it i'm pleasantly surpised by both the clarity and the resinous hops and the bitterness.

Pen Rua

Lacanda ceasing supplies to Ireland due to the deposit return scheme

https://x.com/lacadabrew/status/1745495076548059520?s=46&t=wyBQBLlE_5FkH__21DnApg

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121603798#Comment_121603798

I have to query whether the shipping they're mentioning as stopping - posting across the border - was ever legal in terms of Revenue to begin with.

Hotblack Desiato

Between that and the health warnings to come, it's bad news for brewers / importers / drinkers! of more unusual or exotic brews. ☹️

Really all of this sort of thing (if it needs to be done at all) should be harmonised across the EU so the same product can be sold everywhere.

Twee.

Expect to see a lot less imports on shelf sadly! Core lines will most likely be updated but given that barcodes need to registered six weeks (!) before landing on shelf, breweries won't bother with registering specials and then they won't be available to local importers/distributors.

There is allowance for stock to be stickered for a limited time but this must be approved by DRS and the stickers purchased from them, so likely that would mean they would have to be applied in Ireland when stock is landed. The distro will have to charge for this job, it's time consuming and tedious, again off putting for the breweries.

breezy1985

Is it a unique barcode for each label or is it just a generic sticker ?

Twee.

It's a sticker of the Re-Turn logo from what I understand, I haven't seen guidelines to say the sticker is anything else. So I suppose you could register and not sticker and see where it lands you. On the product reg form you need to select whether the logo in on the label or not, again you could fudge that I suppose. There are "administrative charges" is reports are filed incorrectly though.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605768#Comment_121605768

The reason I was wondering is for breweries like the NI ones they could just put the sticker on all their labels even if not going to ROI. If they are not selling direct would it not be the off licence that then has to do all the 15c stuff.

And how does on sale work. Who pays and collects when the customer isn't taking the can home ?

Pen Rua

I'm trying to understand Lacanda's comments around the cost effectiveness of the DRS. My initial thought was: surely adding a small logo on the label (when you have to create a bespoke label for a new beer anyhow) wouldn't be too much hassle.

Looking at the Re-Turn website, and the "Producer" section, which I understand to be the breweries we are talking about here there is this document: https://re-turn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Producer-Fees-Updated-September-2023-2.pdf

On p5, it seems to suggest a brewery has to pay €500 (minimum) per year to be part of the scheme. So if an English brewery wants to export to Ireland, they have to pay €500 (minimum) to be part of the Re-Turn programme, which itself is a prerequsite to operating in Ireland now, it is not optional.

p4 outlines that each product needs a unique ROI only barcode, which I assume would cause havoc on internal systems re stock management, generating barcodes etc... Another document (https://re-turn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Re-turn-Tech-Spec-Update-19-April-2023-Doc-%E2%80%93-Oct-2022_v8.pdf) refers to a surcharge for retaining an existing international barcode.

I'm not clear on the content of p4 where it mentions €0.125 per aluminum / steel container. Does this mean the brewery has to pay Re-Turn €0.125 per can as part of the scheme?

Twee.

Irish Brewery sells to distributor and charges 15c per can.

Distributor sells to retailer and charges 15c per can.

Retailer sells to consumer and charges 15c per can.

Brewery, distributor and retailer invoice Re-Turn and somehow everyone gets their 15c back. Consumers get it back at point of return.

In the case of direct to consumer, the brewery will have to invoice themselves for the deposit on stock they sell on their online store.

Just over 1c per can for every can placed on the market, as PenRua mentioned there, plus the €500 annual fee. This was meant to be €100 per registration but thankfully industry pressure got that changed.

There's so much management & invoicing involved in the scheme plus mandatory monthly forecasting and reporting.

Pen Rua

Do we know how different (or, how-not-different) the Irish deposit return scheme is compared to European equivalents? Clearly they work fine in Germany, Belgium etc etc but is that just down to scale there? Or, do the system / costs differ?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121606295#Comment_121606295

The variety of product on sale in German supermarkets is often a lot smaller (and nearly entirely domestic at that) compared to here, but the markets also much bigger.

On existing beer packaging you can often see that specific countries are grouped together, e.g. we often get stock with Swedish, Dutch and Norwegian deposit logos, but I've never seen Danish ones, or the German thing of saying there is a deposit (their logo is PET only I think) The few Irish ones I've seen leak out so far also have that same combo.

thesandeman

I notice Karpachie have a brand new colourful can design. Bad timing you would think of they have to change it again in a few weeks.

Unless they already have the return label on them. I couldn't see as they're in a 4 pack.

TaurenDruid

Yeah, and you'll often see "The Surgeon General says you shouldn't drink" on beers, they just use the one label for the US and for export to Ireland.

youcancallmeal

Maybe I don't understand the scheme fully but would this cause Irish brewers to prefer to use bottles for specials from now on? Is bottling more expensive than canning?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611550#Comment_121611550

Empty bottles cost more than empty cans, and are heavier to ship. This is why breweries went to can - some years ago the only Irish brewery doing cans was Metalman - but some are already saying they will do short runs / specials in bottle instead.

I expect bottles to be added to the scheme at some point though.

Twee.

Totally different packaging line too, the mobile bottlers will be busy! Unless people have both a canner and a bottler but most would have either or.

Multipacks where the items are not individually barcoded will be exempt so prices there should stay the same and not be pushing one type of packaging over the other.

TaurenDruid

All in all it seems to be yet another example of good intentions, terribly implemented, because only the big stakeholders (read: donors) were consulted. And it'll be marketed as an amazing victory for the green lobby. Even though most people that had separate recycling would have recycled cans anyway, cos why wouldn't you?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617701#Comment_121617701

That's my read on it too.

But any mention of descent seems to get shouted down with "it works fine in Germany" on the other discussions about on Boards.

Interesting that multipacks are exempt. Between them and bottles that's most of the sales of the macro breweries covered.

TaurenDruid

Yup. Define "multipack". Is a slab of 20 cans a multipack? Could it be said this exemption serves to encourage binge drinking? 😀

Twee.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617734#Comment_121617734

Yep, most interesting. Have a look at page 13 here to see the leadership and governance and draw your own conclusions.

EDIT forgot the link https://re-turn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/NI-Wholesaler-Presentation-13th-September-2023.pdf

Blisterman

Does anyone know how this will work in bars and restaurants? If a drink is poured from a can into a glass? Does the customer still pay the deposit?

What if you're getting a glass of red lemonade from a 2l bottle? Where is the deposit paid then?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618248#Comment_121618248

Their cans would be delivered via multipack.

Breweries selling their own might be the only exception but I suppose they could always deliver a "multi pack" to themselves.

Twee.

Not necessarily the case, some will be individually barcoded within a box especially if it's independent beer which a lot of smaller restaurants do have.

Hospitality have two ways to operate -

Take away - deposit charged and consumer takes the can off site to consumer and return themselves

Dine in - deposit not charged as the can/bottle stays on site. However the cafe etc will be charged by their wholesaler and this is the Re-Turn guidance on that:

" If a deposit is charged, the consumer can take their container off site. If the deposit is not charged, then the business is responsible for collecting the containers and taking them to a Return Point Operator to reclaim their deposit."

L1011

Where's the exception for multipacks anyway? All I can find is derails on making sure they are all barcoded.

I am expecting pubs/cafes/etc that used can and plastic to go back to glass for soft drinks. Which will be expensive.

Hotblack Desiato

I wonder what will happen with the Polish fridge in my local Molloys.

Proper Polish Tyskie (not the Grolsch-brewed muck) and various brews little known in this country. Can't imagine most of them will be entering the scheme so I expect them to disappear 😧

Where's this thing about multipacks being exempted coming from? First I've heard of it and doesn't make any sense.

Twee.

It was sent in an email, I'll have a dig around the site tomorrow and see if I can find any uploaded guidance. It's just for the transition period.

squonk

Does the multipack thing mean that the likes of Kinnegsr/GBB etc can get arid this by shifting the web shops to provide “better value” by shrink wrapping say 4 cans of Rustbucket, calling it a multipack and selling it for 60c less than if you bought 4 individual cans? Actually the breweries I mentioned are technically doing this anyway as GBB sell slabs and Kinnegsr sell varying combos of beer packs that could openly be construed as a multipack? Would it be eight to put a sticker over the standard can label barcode and generate a separate code for your beer box?