Telling tenants to get with the programme

fran38

Hi, me again (https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=112755809).
How do I get my two tenants to adhere to cleaning rituals around the house borne out of the coronavirus? I've been busy wiping down all surfaces, door handles etc with disinfectant since the virus hit. I've texted my two tenants to do this as well. But up to now none of them have even so much as picked up a towel. And washing hands seems an alien concept to them although the female tenant says she has hand sanitiser in her room.
It's even got to the stage where I could very easily give them their notice if they don't cop on to the dangers. Overreaction maybe but I need to lookout for my health etc
Opinions please?

tdf7187

I am usually pro-tenant in most cases but if these people are living with you in your actual house that you are also living in, you are fully entitled to insist on your rules (within reason) being complied with.

Irish_peppa

I texted my two lodgers to be mindful of washing hands etc especially coming in from work, I have posted up 4 A4 Covid prevention posters and hung in all common areas in high visibility spots. I have Supplied Anti bacterial hand soap to bathroom and toilet. They have seen me with dettol wiping down banisters and handles. I have jammed all common rooms doors open so as to use handles less.
I have 2 lodgers the chap that works in a restaurant has come in twice now (That I have witnessed I can only assume its a daily thing judging by that) straight from work and went straight to the fridge to grab a beer, bypassing the sink in the understairs hall and grabs remote. I had to remind him to wash his hands. Last night I heard him coming in and again i knew by the squeak of his bedroom door he had bypassed the handwashing and went straight to bedroom due to the timing of front door bang and bedroom door squeak. Other guy same thing hes working from home yet went to a party yesterday came home steaming drunk and went straight into the kitchen starts making a sandwich without washing the hands fridge door mauled kettle handle. I looked this morning at the bottles of hand wash the one in their bathroom still has the pump handle screwed down so has not be even opened the understairs toilet one looks virtually unused! Despite no other soap in room apart from shampoo in the shower. I give up , as far as im concerned I will just assume they have brought the virus in and ill have to be mindful of where I touch and what I do in the house as they simply cant be trusted they dont really care im double their age they are youngfellas they cant be bothered and I cant start following them around with a soap bottle like their mother! Sucks but these are the things that happen in a house share environment.
I have found over the years if you ask/advise people on certain things they will do the complete opposite. Maybe its a "you dont tell me what to do" attitude or something I dunno. Odd,

theteal

It doesn't sound (read) like they're actuslly tenants and will not have the rights of a tenant. Maybe remind them if this fact and tell them to stop putting you and others at risk.

Shefwedfan

Simple, follow the rules or get out...
Not sure why you would pussy foot around them

I would remind them as it’s a medical risk and they are been negligent then no 30 days and straight out door

hobie21

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Simple, follow the rules or get out...
Not sure why you would pussy foot around them

I would remind them as it’s a medical risk and they are been negligent then no 30 days and straight out door

Looks like ye are welcoming vovid in with open arms. Roll out the plague carpet. If it was me i'd put my health first, and explain to them that they need to leave so you get to live.

listermint

Point them to the exit.

Shefwedfan

hobie21 wrote: »

Looks like ye are welcoming vovid in with open arms. Roll out the plague carpet. If it was me i'd put my health first, and explain to them that they need to leave so you get to live.

??? Did you mean to quote me

Samuel T. Cogley

Stuff missing? I'd have got rid at that point.

Akrasia

They have pretty much no tenants rights as licensees. Any anti social behavior in your home is grounds for eviction. If they’re ignoring the social distancing advice and going to house parties then I’d tell them they have to go.

This might scare the others into copping themselves on a bit and washing their hands

Irish_peppa

Akrasia wrote: »

They have pretty much no tenants rights as licensees. Any anti social behavior in your home is grounds for eviction. If they’re ignoring the social distancing advice and going to house parties then I’d tell them they have to go.

This might scare the others into copping themselves on a bit and washing their hands

sorry my mistake he came back drunk after being out for the night. He could of been with 1 person. No idea if they were practicing social distancing to an extent. I shouldnt have said Party as I dont know:cool:

Claw Hammer

Irish_peppa wrote: »

sorry my mistake he came back drunk after being out for the night. He could of been with 1 person. No idea if they were practicing social distancing to an extent. I shouldnt have said Party as I dont know:cool:

I wouldn't be giving him the benefit of the doubt. He sounds like a sloppy filthy pig. That's when a sober, I can hardly imagine he gets much better when he's drunk.

Shefwedfan

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I wouldn't be giving him the benefit of the doubt. He sounds like a sloppy filthy pig. That's when a sober, I can hardly imagine he gets much better when he's drunk.

Your making assumptions


Put up a sign with details of the cleaning. I would put some nicely worded warning at the bottom that uncompliance with the new regulations will have to be reviewed with landlord/landlady. Potential immediate removal from property if not adhered to



Send them a text with picture of the sign


Any f**king around then out the door. Plenty of warning.

db

Irish_peppa wrote: »

I texted my two lodgers to be mindful of washing hands etc especially coming in from work, I have posted up 4 A4 Covid prevention posters and hung in all common areas in high visibility spots. I have Supplied Anti bacterial hand soap to bathroom and toilet. They have seen me with dettol wiping down banisters and handles. I have jammed all common rooms doors open so as to use handles less.
I have 2 lodgers the chap that works in a restaurant has come in twice now (That I have witnessed I can only assume its a daily thing judging by that) straight from work and went straight to the fridge to grab a beer, bypassing the sink in the understairs hall and grabs remote. I had to remind him to wash his hands. Last night I heard him coming in and again i knew by the squeak of his bedroom door he had bypassed the handwashing and went straight to bedroom due to the timing of front door bang and bedroom door squeak. Other guy same thing hes working from home yet went to a party yesterday came home steaming drunk and went straight into the kitchen starts making a sandwich without washing the hands fridge door mauled kettle handle. I looked this morning at the bottles of hand wash the one in their bathroom still has the pump handle screwed down so has not be even opened the understairs toilet one looks virtually unused! Despite no other soap in room apart from shampoo in the shower. I give up , as far as im concerned I will just assume they have brought the virus in and ill have to be mindful of where I touch and what I do in the house as they simply cant be trusted they dont really care im double their age they are youngfellas they cant be bothered and I cant start following them around with a soap bottle like their mother! Sucks but these are the things that happen in a house share environment.
I have found over the years if you ask/advise people on certain things they will do the complete opposite. Maybe its a "you dont tell me what to do" attitude or something I dunno. Odd,

Out the door, today.

Claw Hammer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Your making assumptions


Put up a sign with details of the cleaning. I would put some nicely worded warning at the bottom that uncompliance with the new regulations will have to be reviewed with landlord/landlady. Potential immediate removal from property if not adhered to



Send them a text with picture of the sign


Any f**king around then out the door. Plenty of warning.

I wouldn't be bothered.

Diemos

Irish_peppa wrote: »

I have Supplied Anti bacterial hand soap to bathroom and toilet.

But its a virus....not a bacteria.

Caranica

OP I'm not sure you're cut out to have lodgers (not tenants btw). You are not their parent. I understand you're scared of the virus but your lodgers are grown adults.

Based on your two threads I would suggest these two lodgers are not compatible with sharing your home. Either ask them to leave or try to sit down with them and talk about it. Communication by text is not going to go well and those posters could be seen as passive aggressive.

Mic 1972

It's almost virtually impossible to be safe in a house sharing environment at the moment. One my lodgers is moving out tomorrow thank god, she pays no attention to social distancing and staying at home rules. Now waiting for the second lodger to move out soon
I had no choice other than giving them notice. But apparently there are plenty of BnBs now available for cheap

Mic 1972

Irish_peppa wrote: »

sorry my mistake he came back drunk after being out for the night. He could of been with 1 person. No idea if they were practicing social distancing to an extent. I shouldnt have said Party as I dont know:cool:

For some reason the virus emergency hasn't registered with everybody yet, there are still so many out there who can't be bothered. I'm going to lose about 1200 euro per month by not renting anymore but there's my health at stake here

conormc1984

What happened with the stuff going missing.

fran38

conormc1984 wrote: »

What happened with the stuff going missing.

I posted an update on that particilar thread if you want to read it (two/three pages in i think) I wont repeat it here coz its another subject altogether.

Steer55

Mic 1972 wrote: »

It's almost virtually impossible to be safe in a house sharing environment at the moment. p

impossible anytime but that's just me. I can never fathom why a home owner would allow complete strangers into their private living space.

Edgware

Dont care anymore. Got rid of a cnut of a tenant in Nov and sold up. deal closed 3rd March, funds in my account, looking at a good Sterling rate to get it away from this country

Shefwedfan

Steer55 wrote: »

impossible anytime but that's just me. I can never fathom why a home owner would allow complete strangers into their private living space.

It’s fairly normal and I done it myself for years

I lived in college and jobs for years in shared accommodation all around Ireland and world. When I bought first house I was going to be living on my own, even for company it was good to have someone living with me and cash was good

Mic 1972

Steer55 wrote: »

impossible anytime but that's just me. I can never fathom why a home owner would allow complete strangers into their private living space.

Rent-a-room is not everyone.
I made 70K euro in less than 6 years by renting 2 rooms in my house. All tax free
Would I do it again? not sure but it's good money

Kerry25x

Diemos wrote: »

But its a virus....not a bacteria.

So what? It doesn't matter what kind of soap it is, it will work just fine. Any regular soap will do.

Mic 1972

By the way, does anyone know if the eviction ban is going to affect rent-a-room too?
One of my lodgers is now saying that i can't ask him to leave although my request has nothing to do with his ability to pay, my concerns are related to health, I dont want to take chances living in house sharing

_Brian

It’s simple.

They follow your rules or they get out ASAP !

Take no rubbish in this. If they can’t be clean at home you can be damn sure they’re not taking adequate precautions when out and are so an increased risk to you.

CrankyHaus

Mic 1972 wrote: »

By the way, does anyone know if the eviction ban is going to affect rent-a-room too?
One of my lodgers is now saying that i can't ask him to leave although my request has nothing to do with his ability to pay, my concerns are related to health, I dont want to take chances living in house sharing

I haven't seen the bill yet and I don't know if it's public. The legislation is expected to be passed this week and does not apply until then.



Remove the lodgers now while you can, especially if you are in a high risk group. You don't want to be spluttering away in a long queue for a ventilator wishing that you'd just enforced your right to a safe home. You gave them both a chance to do the right thing and they threw it back in your face. I can't imagine they'd be easy to share the house with in a lockdown either.



They'll find somewhere else easily as all of the vacant Airbnbs are hitting the rental market at the moment.

Claw Hammer

Mic 1972 wrote: »

By the way, does anyone know if the eviction ban is going to affect rent-a-room too?
One of my lodgers is now saying that i can't ask him to leave although my request has nothing to do with his ability to pay, my concerns are related to health, I dont want to take chances living in house sharing

The eviction ban is being done through an amendment to the Residential Tenancies Act. Since, Rent a Room does not come under that Act, it will not be affected by the ban on the evictions. In any event the removal of a larger is not an eviction since a larger does not have any estate in the property.

Mic 1972

I called Citizen Information a few minutes ago. Apparently rent a room doesn't come under the Act however the purpose of the Act is to protect tenants from evictions so it's not clear whether I can or can't. My understanding of the Act is that tenants should be protected in case they lose the ability to pay rent, but my concerns are related to health, not to money. How can the law force someone to share their personal space with a stranger against their will?

TheBoyConor

They are not tennants. They are only lodgers. They have no rights only reasonable notice when it comes to eviction.

I could declare to them that this is serious and that if you catch or even have a suspicion that they are not following the proper rules laid down and made clear by you that you will see to it that they and their belongings will be ejected from the property sharpish.
Given that this is a health issue and is a major national health crisis I would consider "reasonable notice" to be the amount of time it takes for them to wash their hands thoroughly. I would give 24 hours notice and reduce it to 12 hours if they do not give a committment to washing their hands and observing good hygiene. I'd eject them immediately if they get any way aggressive over it.
In fact I think you would have a reasonable grounds to eject them with immediate effect if they are putting you and your health in danger and are not compliant with requests to observe hygiene.

Perhaps you could warn them that given the current circumstances, and the severe health risk they are putting you in because of their laziness and defiance, you have the right to eject them out onto the street with a moment's notice and they might site up and cop themselves on.

Personally if I were in your position, I would just eject both of them regardless of their hygiene. They are a risk and you are better to eliminate them. You are older and thus at a higher risk.

Caranica

THEY ARE NOT TENANTS! Simple as that. They are lodgers/paying guests in your home. No right to stay there beyond the end of their permission to do so.

endacl

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I called Citizen Information a few minutes ago. Apparently rent a room doesn't come under the Act however the purpose of the Act is to protect tenants from evictions so it's not clear whether I can or can't. My understanding of the Act is that tenants should be protected in case they lose the ability to pay rent, but my concerns are related to health, not to money. How can the law force someone to share their personal space with a stranger against their will?

They’re not tenants. They have no protection under the act in the same way as they aren’t protected by the wildlife act, because they’re not hedgehogs.

Mic 1972

TheBoyConor wrote: »

They are not tennants. They are only lodgers. They have no rights only reasonable notice when it comes to eviction.

I could declare to them that this is serious and that if you catch or even have a suspicion that they are not following the proper rules laid down and made clear by you that you will see to it that they and their belongings will be ejected from the property sharpish.
Given that this is a health issue and is a major national health crisis I would consider "reasonable notice" to be the amount of time it takes for them to wash their hands thoroughly. I would give 24 hours notice and reduce it to 12 hours if they do not give a committment to washing their hands and observing good hygiene. I'd eject them immediately if they get any way aggressive over it.

Personally if I were in your position, I would just eject both of them regadless of their hygiene. They are a risk and you are better to eliminate them.

One left already without objections

The other one was notified in January verbally. I sent him a message on whatsapp this morning to have it on record too, but as the country is under emergency if her refuses to leave I'll have a hard time enforcing the eviction. The funny thing is that there are plenty of rooms available and rents are dropping too

TheBoyConor

You enforce it by locking the door when they are out and leaving their stuff outside in a plastic bag.

They are lodgers. They do not come under the Residential Tenancies Act at all. They are licencees, and are in the house so long as you give consent to them to remain.

If you withdraw that consent, for whatever reasons, (not liking their hairstyle would be enough) and remove them with reasonable notice. In the current climate and given the risks you face from them, "reasonable" would be a very short amount of time indeed, hours rather than days or weeks.

If they dig their heels in and refuse to vacate then they become trespassers and you can call the Gardai in to extract them from the house. By physical force if it becomes necessary.

Mic 1972

TheBoyConor wrote: »

You enforce it by locking the door when they are out and leaving their stuff outside in a plastic bag.

I would have no problems doing that, I just don't want to face legal consequences evicting someone in the middle of the pandemic.

The Act is not clear, it doesn't specifically talk about rent-a-room, your man at Citizien Info advised to call my GP to get a cert that states my requirement to isolate, I mean, come on! I don't have immune deficient and I'm not 70 yo. I just want to have a right to look after my health

TheBoyConor

you will find that the RT Acts are perfectly clear in this regard. The Act does not refer to the rent a room scheme or the treatment of lodgers/licencees because precisely because the scheme, lodgers/licencees DO NOT FALL UNDER THE ACT and the Act is totally and utterly irrelevant to them.
In the same way that the RT Act does not mention hedgehogs - because the Act has and is not intended to have anything whatsoever to do with regulating hedgehogs or their living arrangements.
Or the same reason that the Act does not mention anything about, say, the minimum duration time for
a Mass, because that is not the purpose of the Act.

Also, putting them out of the house is not an Eviction. Eviction is the removal of a tenant. They are not tennants. You'll notice that I say ejection of the lodgers, rather than eviction. because it is not an eviction. they are lodgers/licencees who are licenced/permitted to stay in the house so long as you giver permission for them to do so. When you withdraw that permission (ie, a licence), they are requried to leave and if they defy you, they become trespassers and you can have the Gardai remove them.

You only have to give reasonsbale notice, in this instance considering they and their defiant and dirty behaviour are an imminent and serious danger to your health and your life, reasonable notice would be the amount of time required to turf them out the door head first.
You will not find any legislation detailing this. It is a common law convention.

Claw Hammer

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I would have no problems doing that, I just don't want to face legal consequences evicting someone in the middle of the pandemic.

The Act is not clear, it doesn't specifically talk about rent-a-room, your man at Citizien Info advised to call my GP to get a cert that states my requirement to isolate, I mean, come on! I don't have immune deficient and I'm not 70 yo. I just want to have a right to look after my health

The act is perfectly clear. Look at Section 3.

Mic 1972

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The act is perfectly clear. Look at Section 3.

do you have a link to the full text by any chance? i can't find it online

TheBoyConor

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/ResultsTitleAct.html?q=Residential+Tenancies+act

At the top filter the search results down to Acts to exclude the SIs

Samuel T. Cogley

3.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act applies to every dwelling, the subject of a tenancy (including a tenancy created before the passing of this Act).

(2) Subject to section 4 (2), this Act does not apply to any of the following dwellings—

(a) a dwelling that is used wholly or partly for the purpose of carrying on a business, such that the occupier could, after the tenancy has lasted 5 years, make an application under section 13 (1)(a) of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 in respect of it,

(b) a dwelling to which Part II of the Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) Act 1982 applies,

(c) a dwelling let by or to—

(i) a public authority, or

(ii) a body standing approved for the purposes of section 6 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992 and which is occupied by a person referred to in section 9 (2) of the Housing Act 1988 ,

(d) a dwelling, the occupier of which is entitled to acquire, under Part II of the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (No. 2) Act 1978 , the fee simple in respect of it,

(e) a dwelling occupied under a shared ownership lease,

(f) a dwelling let to a person whose entitlement to occupation is for the purpose of a holiday only,

(g) a dwelling within which the landlord also resides,

(h) a dwelling within which the spouse, parent or child of the landlord resides and no lease or tenancy agreement in writing has been entered into by any person resident in the dwelling,

(i) a dwelling the subject of a tenancy granted under Part II of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 or under Part III of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1931 or which is the subject of an application made under section 21 of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 and the court has yet to make its determination in the matter.

Mic 1972

Thank you all for your feedback today, very useful!

Caranica

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Thank you all for your feedback today, very useful!

Hope you got sorted, if not you need to get them out tomorrow morning before the new Bill becomes law!

TheBoyConor

TheBoyConor wrote: »

can have the Gardai remove them.

Trespass is a civil matter unless there's additional actions and circumstances.

You deciding a person that until ten minutes ago lived there, is no longer welcome doesn't cut it.

You would require either a valid reason why they are putting you in fear or a genuine concern that they intend to commit a crime.

Gardai would not force a person out the door for you.

Mic 1972

Caranica wrote: »

Hope you got sorted, if not you need to get them out tomorrow morning before the new Bill becomes law!

One lodger left on Sunday then she sent me a nasty email saying that she was going to complain with the RTB for unfair eviction, i replied to her that this is my sole residence and that i can no longer rent out rooms, she was given 2 weeks notice which i deem fair notice
The second lodger is expected to move out on 1st April, I'm not sure if this is going to go ahead at this point. Renting rooms is not covered by the tenancy act so ideally i should be ok to kick him out, but of he refuses to leave i doubt the Garda will enforce the law
It's unbelievable how someone can't get rid of a stranger in their own home once they provided enough notice

Mic 1972

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Trespass is a civil matter unless there's additional actions and circumstances.

You deciding a person that until ten minutes ago lived there, is no longer welcome doesn't cut it.

You would require either a valid reason why they are putting you in fear or a genuine concern that they intend to commit a crime.

Gardai would not force a person out the door for you.

I have given him verbal notice in January, which in normal circumstances should be enough as there is no need to written notice. However last week i followed up with a written whatsapp message to remind him of his exit date, so either way he can't say that i'm kicking him out without notice. Not sure how much the Garda can enforce this given the current state of things

Mic 1972

OK, after watching Leo's speech about the new restrictions i feel like my chances to get rid of the lodger are getting thinner

Caranica

Why did you give him notice in January to move out in April?

Mic 1972

Caranica wrote: »

Why did you give him notice in January to move out in April?

I gave him verbal notice in Jan that i needed the room back at the end of February, towards the end of the month he still hadn't found a room so he asked me for an extension of 1 month, until end of March (official exit date 1st April). I agreed to that, but the pandemic escalated very quickly in Ireland. The eviction ban was announced a week ago for tenancies only and extended to licences today, but it looks like licences are intended as student accommodations only.

Mic 1972

Mic 1972 wrote: »

One lodger left on Sunday then she sent me a nasty email saying that she was going to complain with the RTB for unfair eviction

Fantastic, I bet she feels very smug with that little bit of a threat, shame she clueless about the actual law in this regard. I am always amazed that people seem convinced they have all these rights when renting a room in my house. I remember one guy threatning me that if I didnt let him stay he would report me to revenue over the unclaimed income. Fools!

Mic 1972 wrote: »

but of he refuses to leave i doubt the Garda will enforce the law

Enforce what law?

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I have given him verbal notice in January, which in normal circumstances should be enough as there is no need to written notice. However last week i followed up with a written whatsapp message to remind him of his exit date, so either way he can't say that i'm kicking him out without notice. Not sure how much the Garda can enforce this given the current state of things

thats all fine but again, theres nothing to enforce even in normal times, Its a civil dispute.

Mic 1972 wrote: »

OK, after watching Leo's speech about the new restrictions i feel like my chances to get rid of the lodger are getting thinner

I would be surprised if thats not the angle he takes. You gave him notice, plenty to be fair but I would suggest that this new move puts your eviction on ice.

Mic 1972 wrote: »

It's unbelievable how someone can't get rid of a stranger in their own home once they provided enough notice

I completely agree and it has been raised before but the Minister for Justice has repeatedly stated he has no plans to make trespass alone a criminal offence in its own right.