Picard 1x09 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

pah

pah wrote: »

Another don't watch it if you don't like it proposer.

I have a similar list of complaints, I just didn't put them into words as coherently as that poster. Posting on a DISCUSSION board is a good way to point these things out, have others challenge your ideas etc.

Can you offer anything meaningful such as a rebuttal of points outlined? Maybe there is a good reason for some of them we haven't taken into account.

I hate Gaelic Football so I don't watch it. Then I don't go onto the GAA forum and give out about how much I hate it.


I, literally, have other things I would rather do

is_that_so

pah wrote: »

Another don't watch it if you don't like it proposer.

I have a similar list of complaints, I just didn't put them into words as coherently as that poster. Posting on a DISCUSSION board is a good way to point these things out, have others challenge your ideas etc.

Can you offer anything meaningful such as a rebuttal of points outlined? Maybe there is a good reason for some of them we haven't taken into account.

It's really not high art, it's a TV show which you like or don't like. If a show annoys you so such that you obsessively fixate on every last flaw it might be time to let it go. That's not critique that's a rant. Personally going with the flow on it and overall I find it pleasing to me. When it doesn't I'll stop.

Evade

is_that_so wrote: »

You can always just stop watching if you really have all that time to come with a list this extensive. Nobody is forcing you to suffer so intolerably

I have a text document open while I'm watching the episode. It takes no extra time.

Where did the notion that it takes a lot of time to write posts/look up things on Google/make really short Youtube videos come from? You're the third person to post about it in the Star Trek forum in the last week or so.

Deleted User wrote: »

I hate Gaelic Football so I don't watch it. Then I don't go onto the GAA forum and give out about how much I hate it.

I, literally, have other things I would rather do

That's not the same thing, nobody here hates Star Trek.

is_that_so

Evade wrote: »

I have a text document open while I'm watching the episode. It takes no extra time.

Where did the notion that it takes a lot of time to write posts/look up things on Google/make really short Youtube videos come from? You're the third person to post about it in the Star Trek forum in the last week or so.


That's no the same thing, nobody here hates Star Trek.

As I said, obsessive and that's fine. I just watch, occasionally make mental notes and still find it watchable. I will say though, if Peyton List gets blown to kingdom come in the next episode I will cheer loudly.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

That's not the same thing, nobody here hates Star Trek.

It is. I do not hate sport, I hate that particular sport and do not waste my time with it. I certainly do not watch it just so that I can complain about it, what an absolute waste of time that would be

Goodshape

Deleted User wrote: »

I hate Gaelic Football so I don't watch it. Then I don't go onto the GAA forum and give out about how much I hate it.

Not a great analogy really. A lot of people watch "their" sports team religiously and have no shortage of opinions for how to do things better once the game is over.


But I do think people should put away the notebooks, grab a glass of whatever you're having yourself, and actually watch the show instead of setting out to critique it with a minute-by-minute bullet-pointed list of grievances.

I really couldn't imagine enjoying this if I were also making a note of every slip-up or miss-step in dialogue. Relax, at least. Take it as a whole.



(P.S. I'd still like someone to tell me what the supposed or expected/failed twists were in this episode)

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

It is. I do not hate sport, I hate that particular sport and do not waste my time with it. I certainly do not watch it just so that I can complain about it, what an absolute waste of time that would be

It's not a great comparison. Star Trek is is GAA, Picard is a disappointing league or whatever it's called. There's nothing wrong with saying I want the current iteration of this thing I like to be better.

Johnny Storm

Goodshape wrote: »

(P.S. I'd still like someone to tell me what the supposed or expected/failed twists were in this episode)

well, just my guesses:
1) "JL"s terminal illness
2) Spiner appearing as Soong not Data (big mistake IMHO)



PS I really do hope that we get to Season 2 so that Colm Meany can appear in Roddy Doyle Star Trek style and tell us what he really thinks....

pixelburp

Johnny Storm wrote: »

well, just my guesses:
1) "JL"s terminal illness
2) Spiner appearing as Soong not Data (big mistake IMHO)



PS I really do hope that we get to Season 2 so that Colm Meany can appear in Roddy Doyle Star Trek style and tell us what he really thinks....

Point of order here, but the illness reveal was not a twist, not by any definition I'd be familiar with. A plot twist is something held from the audience and revealed as a surprise; a subversion of expectations. Here, the illness was simply information withheld from characters, a boilerplate Character Secret. If anything it simply felt like a reminder to the audience that the illness was A Thing, and that there's a non-zero chance it'll form part of the finale's plot. We'll see of course.

Same with Golden Soji: a little bit more of a twist, in that the audience weren't aware there might be yet more of that type, but it didn't linger long enough on the reveal for it to feel like Something Big.

Goodshape

Johnny Storm wrote: »

well, just my guesses:
1) "JL"s terminal illness
2) Spiner appearing as Soong not Data (big mistake IMHO)

Ah, I guess AI Soong was a thing. Although I was neither surprised nor disappointed at my lack of surprise. I thought Soong showing up on ST:Enterprise was a bit stupid. This time I got a chuckle that they were doing it again, but I enjoyed the chuckle.

Picard's illness we've known about since the first episode or two. Or actually since All Good Things!

pah

If we're going all in with the sports analogy then Star Trek is my favourite team. (All thoughts hereafter entirely subjective)

My team had a really good run in the 90's overall competing regularly for the top four, winning some competitions and occasionally blowing other teams away with a legendary performance here and there.

There was some poor form at times where they started slowly, had some good performances but also disappointed at times until finally they were relegated for years and years.

3 years ago they came back up and had a decent season although they didn't win any awards worth talking about. Many people including myself felt they were playing an ugly game. The following year with some decent transfers in they did a little better although I would have given a few red cards for certain incidents if I'd been the Ref :P "I like science"

For me, Picard has yet to register an impressive 3 point win on the road. My team is struggling to pick up 1 point for a dodgy home draw but I will sit down every week and I will watch and support my team because this is something that I am passionate about.

I may then go online and critique it because I am not happy with the performance. I want like minded people to agree with me and I want people with differing opinions to rebut what I have said and give their own opinions.

I'm getting really fed up of the idea of "Don't like - Don't watch" I can't do that, I am too invested as a fan.

I don't think there are many posts in the soccer forum in say, a Man Utd thread telling people who are complaining about the teams performance to stop watching them play if they don't like what they see??

AllForIt

Rawr wrote: »

I suppose the main jist of my complaint is that they just plonked the cube onto the ground with very little disturbance to the surrounding environment. It is just resting flat on the ground by some water as if it was some kind of Minecraft biome.

Of course a large Cube could potentially crash head-on like that, but it is visually quite lazy looking. They could have it at an angle, half sunk into the ground, or smashed partially into a mountainside. The way they've done it kind of makes it apparent that the Cube is supposed to fly again. No doubt within the "Kitchen sink" plot-resolving battle that I fear this show will end with.

Actually I take what I said back on reflection. When Picard entered the cube the ship controls were the right way up in respect of land gravity i.e they weren't hanging from the roof. This of course doesn't matter in space because of fake gravity and there is no up in space.

pah

I did wonder during the episode where the lightning storms were :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/FourHosts/status/1242248217514766336

pixelburp

That sound you hear right now is a mic being dropped

Had completely forgotten about that, though TOS always seems like the show some fans like to pick & choose their canon from. When it suits

Evade

That's a (half) Vulcan performing a mind meld not an android learning how to do it by reading a book.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

That's a (half) Vulcan performing a mind meld not an android learning how to do it by reading a book.

Pffh. Because that's an important difference? Why would a mind-meld work on anything non-organic at all? And she didn't just "read a book", the episode made it clear enough alt-Soji had studied Vulcan culture obsessively; not like she pulled a Short Circuit and sped-read a how-to.

To be fair, acknolweding canon on TOS is tricky at the best of times, given it means we must admit that there's a Planet of Nazis, or Planet of Chicago Gangsters out there.

Rawr

pixelburp wrote: »

not like she pulled a Short Circuit and sped-read a how-to.

Now thanks to you, I'm imagining alt-Soji running around the planet looking for books while speaking with the voice of Johnny Five.

Soong Jr: Soji, what the hell happened in the library? The books are all over the place!

Soji: Innnnpuuut! I need INNNNPUUT!!!

Soong Jr: Dammit Soji, enough of this nonsense, I'm an old man.

Soji: Old man, walking fossil, ancient geezer!!

Soong Jr: You know what fine. There's more input over on that nearby Starfleet ship. Go and see if they're still feeling murder-y.

Soji: Innnnpuuut!

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Pffh. Because that's an important difference?

There's almost certainly a biological component to it. You could argue these new androids have that built into them and if Soong had said that it'd be more acceptable but he said she studied it implying anyone could do it when up to now it's exclusively been a Vulcan thing.

pixelburp wrote: »

To be fair, acknolweding canon on TOS is tricky at the best of times, given it means we must admit that there's a Planet of Nazis, or Planet of Chicago Gangsters out there.

It is. and there's even an explanation in canon for it where in the 24th century some of the TOS era logs are looked at a little skeptically. I'd find a Youtube video of the line but I don't want to be accused of putting too much effort into a forum post.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

There's almost certainly a biological component to it. You could argue these new androids have that built into them and if Soong had said that it'd be more acceptable but he said she studied it implying anyone could do it when up to now it's exclusively been a Vulcan thing.

Telepathy exists in this universe, so unless there's some specificity to Vulcan physiology that marks them out as being the only ones capable (though I'm sure we've had other episodes with Telepathy involved), I don't see it as impossible - or too much of a creative leap - to speculate the synapses of Androids are suited of the kind of connections required for telepathic reading. They're supposed to be intellectually advanced beings, so seems reasonable they & Vulcans would both be suited.

If you can mind-meld robotic probes - or humpback whales - there's obviously a ragged edge of how far the telepathy can go. The mind melds have always been the more overt, openly Fantasy element of Trek and TBH wouldn't blink if they just consigned them to the canon bin. Can Romulans mind meld?

Evade wrote: »

It is. and there's even an explanation in canon for it where in the 24th century some of the TOS era logs are looked at a little skeptically. I'd find a Youtube video of the line but I don't want to be accused of putting too much effort into a forum post.

So what you're saying is that with a little creative thinking, even the daftest parts of canon can be explained? So why not "advanced androids, with practice, can mind meld"?

Stark

pixelburp wrote: »

If you can mind-meld robotic probes - or humpback whales - there's obviously a ragged edge of how far the telepathy can go. The mind melds have always been the more overt, openly Fantasy element of Trek and TBH wouldn't blink if they just consigned them to the canon bin. Can Romulans mind meld?

I'd imagine one could be taught to given they are biological cousins of Vulcans. I think to keep within the spirit of the canon somewhat though, having to spend a few years adopting the teachings of Surak should be a pre-requisite.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Telepathy exists in this universe, so unless there's some specificity to Vulcan physiology that marks them out as being the only ones capable (though I'm sure we've had other episodes with Telepathy involved), I don't see it as impossible - or too much of a creative leap - to speculate the synapses of Androids are suited of the kind of connections required for telepathic reading. They're supposed to be intellectually advanced beings, so seems reasonable they & Vulcans would both be suited.

Different races have different abilities. A Vulcan using Betazoid style telepathy would be just as out of place even though they're both telepathic races.

pixelburp wrote: »

If you can mind-meld robotic probes - or humpback whales - there's obviously a ragged edge of how far the telepathy can go. The mind melds have always been the more overt, openly Fantasy element of Trek and TBH wouldn't blink if they just consigned them to the canon bin. Can Romulans mind meld?

There was an effort to reign it in but now it's kind of been reversed. Romulans would be likely candidates but they do have some differences, they don't pon farr as far as we know.

pixelburp wrote: »

So what you're saying is that with a little creative thinking, even the daftest parts of canon can be explained? So why not "advanced androids, with practice, can mind meld"?

There's a difference between trying to clear up a daft idea from the 60s and creating new ones. What they've done now is make Androids a perfect race. Not only have they removed the old limitations but now with some practice they can emulate unique characteristics from other races.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

There's a difference between trying to clear up a daft idea from the 60s and creating new ones. What they've done now is make Androids a perfect race. Not only have they removed the old limitations but now with some practice they can emulate unique characteristics from other races.

I just think we're quibbling over degrees again though; Mind Melds aren't strictly defined, and it's not that much of a cognitive leap to imagine an Android conducting one, especially one whose apparent emotional or intellectual range seems much advanced from (say) Data and has studied the practise. Like I said, not like a random Mars worker bot picked up a book and sped read. And no less a leap than Spock melding with a robotic probe (wasn't that a precursor V'ger style device?)

Honestly, I'd be more perturbed by a human performing a mind-meld, than an android. Vulcans and Androids feel ... ... thematically similar enough as it stands.

pah

pah wrote: »

An Android that has taught herself the Vulcan mind meld????? this show needs to fuçk right off :mad:

I had forgotten about spocks mindmeld with the probe in TOS and V'ger in TMP. Most of my trek lore comes from TNG & afterwards.

On reflection I think I was more annoyed that it was so convenient to have a positronic brain that could mind meld and make sense of the gibberish messages that could not otherwise have been explained. This added to the previous episode where Rios just happened to be the one who had previously met the other Alt_soji Android (Janna?)

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

I just think we're quibbling over degrees again though; Mind Melds aren't strictly defined, and it's not that much of a cognitive leap to imagine an Android conducting one, especially one whose apparent emotional or intellectual range seems much advanced from (say) Data and has studied the practise. Like I said, not like a random Mars worker bot picked up a book and sped read. And no less a leap than Spock melding with a robotic probe (wasn't that a precursor V'ger style device?)

The only real rule was it required a Vulcan now there are no rules.

pixelburp wrote: »

Honestly, I'd be more perturbed by a human performing a mind-meld, than an android. Vulcans and Androids feel ... ... thematically similar enough as it stands.

Breaking established rules to fit a theme is just lazy. There's no reason a human with enough discipline can't do it now because they've removed any biological component. Unless of course this gets Holdo-manuevered in the next episode or season in that she did have some Vulcan parts and that allowed here to do it.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

The only real rule was it required a Vulcan now there are no rules.

Well there's our point of disagreement and deviation: there were no "rules" to begin with, just an informal racial trope that was happily broken - albeit from the POV of viable mind-meld targets - whenever previous writers decided it was OK. Be they robotic probes, whales or whatever. The Vulcans function as weird ostensible Space Mages anyway, between the telepathy, storing entire consciousnesses in others' bodies etc. The race, TBH, is boll*cks at the best of times.

It does minimal harm to cannon to suggest given a suitably able and complex artificial mind, it could recreate the prerequisites that allow for telepathy. Just having emotive, intellectual androids is a pretty huge leap, even past Data. It suits the plot to suggest their superiority extends beyond the generic "faster, smarter, stronger" cliché.

IMO canon remains intact, the Space Magic merely has its adherents to include ostensible super-beings / Cosmopolitan cover models.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Well there's our point of disagreement and deviation: there were no "rules" to begin with, just an informal racial trope that was happily broken

When else has there been a mind meld that didn't involve a Vulcan?

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

When else has there been a mind meld that didn't involve a Vulcan?

Nothing exists in canon, until it does. Spock emoted, until he didn't. There were never emotive capable androids until there were (let's ignore Harry Mudd). Klingons looked in such a way, until they didn't. There were never any Borg, until there were. Never any Ferenghi, until there were (and were changed from hostile aggressors to scheming financiers at that). And so on.

You can't have the Singularity, with caveats, just to preserve canon that's barely concrete at the best of times.

The main thing is why do you think that androids can only copy Human senses and not those of other races?

The Megaphone

Next it will be okay to warp ships into Borg cubes as a last resort!

If they wanted to go down the android mind meld route, the least they could have done is create an android modeled on a Vulcan - it would have helped IMO!