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Is this technically assault? No??
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TheBoyConor wrote: »I find that to be a truly frightening set up. The potential there for misunderstandings and allegations and accusations being brought is huge. You are dicing with danger my friend.
No it's not. I wouldn't do it on a first date but for a married/long term couple, who are both comfortable with it, no issue. Far from frightening, it's a very nice way to wake up!
There's a lot of misguidance on this thread, in the eyes of Irish law, consent does not always have to be explicitly given.0 -
But you are walking on very, very thin ice if it is not explicitly given.0
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TheBoyConor wrote: »But you are walking on very, very thin ice if it is not explicitly given.
Well, I would advise all men to be cautious but I wouldn't say it's walking on very thin ice (In the normal case of a husband/long term partner waking his partner up for sex), but that's just my own opinion after nearly 10 years of marriage and plenty of waking up/being awoken.
"As the law currently stands in Ireland, sexual intercourse where actual consent is not present may be lawful where a jury concludes that the man honestly believes the woman was consenting even if this was not the case.”
Re the OP's experience, it sounds like it was a horrible cold act with no love on the part of the husband but she also stated she lay there and let it happen. So I don't think the claims of rape are fair. I'm not sure what I would classify it as but it certainly seemed like a horrible experience for the OP, and with all the other history we've hear of, I hope she has left him yet again, and for good this time.0 -
but she also stated she lay there and let it happen. So I don't think the claims of rape are fair.
100% agree.
This poor man would be locked up by now if some people here got their way.
OP its a toxic relationship, you need to leave. As suggested, you should talk to Women's Aid. Do so as soon as possible and get the ball rolling.0 -
A woman who was incapacitated by alcohol or drugs would also not be able to protest. What if she had alcohol unknownst to the man and he assumed the absence of protest amounted to consent, even tho the woman was unable to either consent nor protest because she was passed out. That is rape.
In this case, the OP feigned being asleep. So to the husband, he assumed and believed she was asleep. By being asleep and not conscious she was neither able to consent nor protest and she ought to have been aware that she could not consent or protest. Therefore there was no implied consent as he knew, or ought to have known, that she was not capable of doing either. Therefore it would be rape.
I honestly believe you as a man are playing a very dangerous game. All it takes is for a relationship breakdown, a grudge to be settled, and out comes the accusations of "he used to do did it to me when I was asleep and couldn't consent"
Consent and implied consent including the absence of protest is all a huge grey area and many a man has perished on that rock.
I don't know, that whole situation you describe sounds very risky and rapey. I would never go there. I would rather be safe than sorry. I would not want to find myself in the dock in 5 years time on foot of a grudge and then having to rely on the whim of a jury to save my skin. Even being in court at all for a consent issue and being exhonorated completely would still be a stain on your character for ever more.
There are a large percentage of people who see being found not-guilty or being exhonourated as just you having "gotten away with it".0 -
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Law couldn't be clearer on this one. Section 48 of the new 2017 Sexual Offences Act reads:
"The Act of 1990 is amended by the substitution of the following section for section 9:
'9. (1) A person consents to a sexual act if he or she freely and voluntarily
agrees to engage in that act.
(2) A person does not consent to a sexual act if—
(a) he or she permits the act to take place or submits to it because of
the application of force to him or her or to some other person, or
because of the threat of the application of force to him or her or to
some other person, or because of a well-founded fear that force
may be applied to him or her or to some other person,
(b) he or she is asleep or unconscious,
(c) he or she is incapable of consenting...'"
You can't consent if you are asleep.It follows that it would be near impossible to show you honestly believed you had consent if you believed the person to be asleep. As they can't consent. Ignorance of the law isn't this a defence. This is obviously a completely different situation to initiating sex in the hope that your spouse will wake up and be responsive. Here is a handy guide for anyone is confused: if your spouse doesn't appear to wake up, don't proceed to have sex with them anyway. It's not that hard.
In any event, this isn't helpful to the OP. Really feel that there should be some policy on Boards when someone posts in personal issues that they feel they've been raped /assaulted that comments should be limited to directing them to adequate supports and not commenting on the validity of the alleged assault/rape one way or the other. It seems that there are a minority of posters who become irate at the idea of a woman being a genuine victim and do their best to downplay/undermine.
As to why someone in the OP's situation would just lay there - it's also dealt with in the section above (amendment of section 9(2) of the 1990 Act) and in no way means that a rape did not take place. The same section continues:
"(5) Any failure or omission on the part of a person to offer resistance to an
act does not of itself constitute consent to that act".
OP, I would definitely give the Rape Crisis Centre a ring.0 -
So the consent must be given. A failure to resist or protest does not equate to consent.
So if you commence an act while your wife is asleep, then that is a sexual assault.
If that act involves penetration, then it is in fact rape.
Parlance, what you and your wife are doing is actually illegally. And you may find that you are actually doing the more serious offence of rape, legally speaking.
However, it seems that ye are both happy to let it slide and ignore the illegal nature of what ye are doing. I find it bizarre.0 -
Well, I would advise all men to be cautious but I wouldn't say it's walking on very thin ice (In the normal case of a husband/long term partner waking his partner up for sex), but that's just my own opinion after nearly 10 years of marriage and plenty of waking up/being awoken.
"As the law currently stands in Ireland, sexual intercourse where actual consent is not present may be lawful where a jury concludes that the man honestly believes the woman was consenting even if this was not the case.”
Re the OP's experience, it sounds like it was a horrible cold act with no love on the part of the husband but she also stated she lay there and let it happen. So I don't think the claims of rape are fair. I'm not sure what I would classify it as but it certainly seemed like a horrible experience for the OP, and with all the other history we've hear of, I hope she has left him yet again, and for good this time.
"let it happen"?
The woman has stated she is in a domestic violence relationship, she is also disabled. Fighting him off may not be possible and could in fact be dangerous.
I've worked with women in violent relationships and what the OP described wasn't all that unusual. The general consensus was he will take sex from her regardless, sometimes it's better not to try and fight him as you'll just end up with a few punches for your troubles.
If my husband tries to get frisky and I'm not interested I know I can refuse, push him off, whatever and it will be OK. Someone who is in a violent situation with a disability may not have the security to do so.0 -
The attitude of PArlance to non-consensual acts is very worrying.0
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It's not very often I'll agree with you TheBoyConnor but you're bang on with this one. It's happened to me in two relationships and I walked away from both. Luckily I was not in the OP's position and could leave safely.
OP please talk to one or all of The Rape Crisis Centre, Women's Aid and the Gardai. Sadly your story won't be new to any of them but they will help you. Seeking help is not a weakness, it's a strength. You deserve better.0 -
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TheBoyConor wrote: »So the consent must be given. A failure to resist or protest does not equate to consent.
So if you commence an act while your wife is asleep, then that is a sexual assault.
If that act involves penetration, then it is in fact rape.
Parlance, what you and your wife are doing is actually illegally. And you may find that you are actually doing the more serious offence of rape, legally speaking.
However, it seems that ye are both happy to let it slide and ignore the illegal nature of what ye are doing. I find it bizarre.
In a loving relationships this happens all the time from both sexes I might add. If I'm woken by my partner's advances its not sexual assault. If I'm not in the mood I'll say so.
In the ops situation its completely different.0 -
TheBoyConor wrote: »The attitude of PArlance to non-consensual acts is very worrying.
Conor, you're showing yourself to be a boy here and there's no need to be worried.
My wife and I regularly wake each other for sex and both of us consent. If neither of us are in the mood, we explicitly state it lovingly with a simple "not tonight".0 -
Conor, you're showing yourself to be a boy here and there's no need to be worried.
My wife and I regularly wake each other for sex and both of us consent. If neither of us are in the mood, we explicitly state it lovingly with a simple "not tonight".
You aren't in a domestic violence situation I assume? Therefore the dynamics of your relationship are completely different to the OP. Comparison is unhelpful.0 -
You aren't in a domestic violence situation I assume? Therefore the dynamics of your relationship are completely different to the OP. Comparison is unhelpful.
And I differentiated that very clearly in my earlier posts. But again, for clarity, it was a horrible cold and disgusting act by the OP's husband.
I was just replying to someone insinuating things about me.0 -
"let it happen"?
The woman has stated she is in a domestic violence relationship, she is also disabled. Fighting him off may not be possible and could in fact be dangerous.
I've worked with women in violent relationships and what the OP described wasn't all that unusual. The general consensus was he will take sex from her regardless, sometimes it's better not to try and fight him as you'll just end up with a few punches for your troubles.
If my husband tries to get frisky and I'm not interested I know I can refuse, push him off, whatever and it will be OK. Someone who is in a violent situation with a disability may not have the security to do so.
My apologies for misquoting and/or misrepresentating the OP. I went back and had another read. When I read that yesterday I took it that she was ok with the sex but a case could definitely be made that she was too shocked (or afraid as you point out) to say something.I was so shocked I let him do it.total silence throughout. Didn't attempt to speak to me, or touch me for me. I'm still shocked.
The OP said she was on disability allowance, she didn't state that she was physically disabled. Not that I want to defend her husband in the slightest, but there are lots of people rushing of to build the case against him on here.
Just again to be clear, because I know many like to get outraged. The husband sounds like a terrible person and the act was at the minimum, a cold horrible disgusting act. But at the same time, I don't throw around accusations of rape lightly.0 -
For those who have asked why I didn't react....... I actually was shocked. Then I sort of figured I had better just not say anything, he's volatile, it was very late, just easier to put up and shut up. Like I seem to be doing all the time anyway.
I do know I need to GET OUT and I'm trying to figure things out, except its taking sooo long.
What happened to the OP is rape according to the legal definition below. The bold sections are particularly relevant. Thanks to UcdLaw22.Law couldn't be clearer on this one. Section 48 of the new 2017 Sexual Offences Act reads:
"The Act of 1990 is amended by the substitution of the following section for section 9:
'9. (1) A person consents to a sexual act if he or she freely and voluntarily
agrees to engage in that act.
(2) A person does not consent to a sexual act if—
(a) he or she permits the act to take place or submits to it because of
the application of force to him or her or to some other person, or
because of the threat of the application of force to him or her or to
some other person, or because of a well-founded fear that force
may be applied to him or her or to some other person,
(b) he or she is asleep or unconscious,
(c) he or she is incapable of consenting...'"
You can't consent if you are asleep.It follows that it would be near impossible to show you honestly believed you had consent if you believed the person to be asleep. As they can't consent. Ignorance of the law isn't this a defence. This is obviously a completely different situation to initiating sex in the hope that your spouse will wake up and be responsive. Here is a handy guide for anyone is confused: if your spouse doesn't appear to wake up, don't proceed to have sex with them anyway. It's not that hard.
In any event, this isn't helpful to the OP. Really feel that there should be some policy on Boards when someone posts in personal issues that they feel they've been raped /assaulted that comments should be limited to directing them to adequate supports and not commenting on the validity of the alleged assault/rape one way or the other. It seems that there are a minority of posters who become irate at the idea of a woman being a genuine victim and do their best to downplay/undermine.
As to why someone in the OP's situation would just lay there - it's also dealt with in the section above (amendment of section 9(2) of the 1990 Act) and in no way means that a rape did not take place. The same section continues:
"(5) Any failure or omission on the part of a person to offer resistance to an
act does not of itself constitute consent to that act".
OP, I would definitely give the Rape Crisis Centre a ring.
Most people have suggested that the OP call the Rape Crisis Centre.
I do not agree with those who say the OP's husband was not in the wrong. This is not a couple with a loving trusting relationship. The OP had taken her husband back late last year after a break due to his abusive behaviour. She should definitely get a barring or safety order against him, whichever is most appropriate.0 -
My apologies for misquoting and/or misrepresentating the OP. I went back and had another read. When I read that yesterday I took it that she was ok with the sex but a case could definitely be made that she was too shocked (or afraid as you point out) to say something.
The OP said she was on disability allowance, she didn't state that she was physically disabled. Not that I want to defend her husband in the slightest, but there are lots of people rushing of to build the case against him on here.
Just again to be clear, because I know many like to get outraged. The husband sounds like a terrible person and the act was at the minimum, a cold horrible disgusting act. But at the same time, I don't throw around accusations of rape lightly.
I think that is another point that has more or less been bypassed by the discussion so far. The op has a disability and even if she was awake and apparently willing, it might be the case owing to her disability that she didn't have the capacity to consent.
I know someone who was married and suffered rape and domestic violence. She married the guy despite warnings from her family not to.
Anyway, it came to a head at a point and help was sought and in the end the marriage was annulled as it was shown that because of her disability she didn't have the capacity to fully understand what it was and what the consequences were. The rapes were not prosecuted tho, she just wanted to be free of him.0 -
TheBoyConor wrote: »Parlance, what you and your wife are doing is actually illegally. And you may find that you are actually doing the more serious offence of rape, legally speaking.
However, it seems that ye are both happy to let it slide and ignore the illegal nature of what ye are doing. I find it bizarre.
Maybe technically. I think a couple can agree that they are fine with being woken up that way. But thats not the OP's situation so it's a discussion for another thread.0 -
I wouldn't call a husband sleeping with his wife rape.. I'm assuming their relationship is good. I don't see much wrong with him making the first move while she was asleep. If she didn't want to continue she could have said "no I'm tired"... maybe I'm wrong though...0
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sallyanne12 wrote: »I wouldn't call a husband sleeping with his wife rape.. I'm assuming their relationship is good. I don't see much wrong with him making the first move while she was asleep. If she didn't want to continue she could have said "no I'm tired"... maybe I'm wrong though...
As they say, tell it to the judge and you'd have your answer fairly quickly.
What happened op is almost certainly rape.
And what the other poster does to his wife is sexual assault and possibly also rape if penetration takes place before she is aware and consents.
They may both be fine with it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is legally a rape according to the letter of the law.That's no ifs or buts about it. The law is clear, this is rape.
Hypothetically, if the wife went about it, she'd have a good chance of having him convicted of rape.0 -
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Well I certainly would never have considered it rape. But I know i could be wrong. When I think of rape I don't picture a couple in bed. I know they say rape is legally "sleeping with someone when they are sleeping" but it doesn't mention that person being your spouse... perhaps it isn't rape as such in the context of spouses. Also if she's lying there so afraid of him to say no, what the hell is she doing living with him and married to him?
On the other hand, after reading through some posts, I agree it could be upsetting waking up to it without knowing, especially if you had no choice with regards contraception. That would be more serious, like if he wasn't using any as could result in an unwanted baby... I can see both sides but I just don't think it's in the same line as a man grabbing a random woman off the street and forcefully having sex with her...0 -
I'm absolutely shocked at some of the responses on here. In my opinion it's 100% rape.
I hope you're doing ok OP,my advice would be to get away from him but it's so much easier said than done. Reach out for help if you can and mind yourself in the meantime. x0 -
sallyanne12 wrote: »Well I certainly would never have considered it rape. But I know i could be wrong. When I think of rape I don't picture a couple in bed. I know they say rape is legally "sleeping with someone when they are sleeping" but it doesn't mention that person being your spouse... perhaps it isn't rape as such in the context of spouses. Also if she's lying there so afraid of him to say no, what the hell is she doing living with him and married to him?
On the other hand, after reading through some posts, I agree it could be upsetting waking up to it without knowing, especially if you had no choice with regards contraception. That would be more serious, like if he wasn't using any as could result in an unwanted baby... I can see both sides but I just don't think it's in the same line as a man grabbing a random woman off the street and forcefully having sex with her...
Really? Rape is rape. Rape is penetrating someone without consent. The cutesy "sleeping with" doesn't change things, it is rape. Of course a spouse can rape. Just because he didn't grab her off the street doesn't mean he didn't forcefully have sex with her.
I honestly despair of some of the posts on this thread.0 -
sallyanne12 wrote: »Well I certainly would never have considered it rape. But I know i could be wrong. When I think of rape I don't picture a couple in bed. I know they say rape is legally "sleeping with someone when they are sleeping" but it doesn't mention that person being your spouse... perhaps it isn't rape as such in the context of spouses. Also if she's lying there so afraid of him to say no, what the hell is she doing living with him and married to him?
On the other hand, after reading through some posts, I agree it could be upsetting waking up to it without knowing, especially if you had no choice with regards contraception. That would be more serious, like if he wasn't using any as could result in an unwanted baby... I can see both sides but I just don't think it's in the same line as a man grabbing a random woman off the street and forcefully having sex with her...
OMG please educate yourself. This is 2020, not 1980. What you think is not what the law says and in sharing what you think you could cause serious harm to people like the OP. Read the thread, the law is quoted in multiple places. It's quite simple to understand.
OP the law is on your side, please disregard what this poster has misguidedly stated.0 -
Law couldn't be clearer on this one. Section 48 of the new 2017 Sexual Offences Act reads:
"The Act of 1990 is amended by the substitution of the following section for section 9:
'9. (1) A person consents to a sexual act if he or she freely and voluntarily
agrees to engage in that act.
(2) A person does not consent to a sexual act if—
(a) he or she permits the act to take place or submits to it because of
the application of force to him or her or to some other person, or
because of the threat of the application of force to him or her or to
some other person, or because of a well-founded fear that force
may be applied to him or her or to some other person,
(b) he or she is asleep or unconscious,
(c) he or she is incapable of consenting...'"
You can't consent if you are asleep.It follows that it would be near impossible to show you honestly believed you had consent if you believed the person to be asleep. As they can't consent. Ignorance of the law isn't this a defence. This is obviously a completely different situation to initiating sex in the hope that your spouse will wake up and be responsive. Here is a handy guide for anyone is confused: if your spouse doesn't appear to wake up, don't proceed to have sex with them anyway. It's not that hard.
In any event, this isn't helpful to the OP. Really feel that there should be some policy on Boards when someone posts in personal issues that they feel they've been raped /assaulted that comments should be limited to directing them to adequate supports and not commenting on the validity of the alleged assault/rape one way or the other. It seems that there are a minority of posters who become irate at the idea of a woman being a genuine victim and do their best to downplay/undermine.
As to why someone in the OP's situation would just lay there - it's also dealt with in the section above (amendment of section 9(2) of the 1990 Act) and in no way means that a rape did not take place. The same section continues:
"(5) Any failure or omission on the part of a person to offer resistance to an
act does not of itself constitute consent to that act".
OP, I would definitely give the Rape Crisis Centre a ring.
actually it doesn't seem that clear. me and my wife may have raped or sexually assaulted each other hundreds of times according to the law.
let's see some actual cases as thin as this that were prosecuted and convicted please.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 6864
OP, here is a link from the Rape Crisis Centre, which deals with consent. Please try and talk to someone, or even give them a call and see what you can do next. Explain to them the full situation.
https://www.drcc.ie/get-informed/campaigns/ask-consent-campaign/0 -
I find that to be a truly frightening set up. The potential there for misunderstandings and allegations and accusations being brought is huge. You are dicing with danger my friend.
Wept
That's a healthy sexual relationship between two consenting trusting partners. Based on years of established behavior.
Not remotely like the OPs case.0 -
sallyanne12 wrote: »...I can see both sides but I just don't think it's in the same line as a man grabbing a random woman off the street and forcefully having sex with her...
It's not the same, but the law views them both as rape because of consent. The thing your scenario has in common with the OP's experience is the lack of consent. If you have sex with someone who is asleep then they can't consent..
Rape isn't about grabbing someone off the street and forcefully having sex with them. Rape is about consent. Could you say the OP's partner thought he had her consent when he thought she was asleep?0 -
For **** sake, how is this still even being debated?
I know a girl who specifically enjoyed being woken up by her partner having sex with her. They discussed it and unilateral consent was given. Therefore he had consent to do so. Of course she could change her mind down the line but she had given him consent to do so for the foreseeable because the nature of what she liked meant she couldn’t at the time. Therefore that’s not rape.
This situation is not remotely close to that. This is a partner who has a history of violence, abuse and intimidation. This is an OP who at no point consented to this act.
STOP trying to debate this because you know you’ve done it before and aren’t comfortable with the fact that it’s rape. If you didn’t have any consent or agreement before you started having sex with someone who was asleep, you raped that person and are a rapist, simple as. You started a sexual act without consent on a person unable to consent. If you ‘disagree’ then you don’t understand what rape is. If your partner happened to be okay with it after the fact, then you got away lucky.
There’s no way for you to argue your way into not having raped someone, it happened and the definition is straightforward, so instead of adding further scumbaggery to an already scummy act by trying to ‘debate’ an open and shut issue by telling a rape victim that they weren’t raped so you feel better...just accept it and move forward with that knowledge in mind spending every day thankful the person you did this to didn’t put you in prison for what you did. End of discussion (I ****ing hope).0 -
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Ah, bit that's the thing.
If either of them are asleep they cannot consent. So no, they are not consenting partners in that scenarios.
Sallyanne, I'm appalled that you think being married absolves a person from the need to have consent. Your thinking is from the 1950s Catholic Ireland. I assume your are a woman yourself. I think your attitude and opinion is a huge insult and danger to women.
The law used to be like that but the laws were changed in the 1980s or 90s so that violent bastards of husbands who were sexually mauling their wives and drunkenly craving their heads open could be brought to justice.
The law doesn't mention anything about spouses now. Because it is not relevant.. Rape is rape, married or not.
I think your whole attitude around suggesting tape in a marriage is not as serious as randomly grabbing done off the street is just a disgusting and shameful attitude to have. Someone who reads that and takes it as true may think they have no choice but to put up with the spousal rapes.
And to the other poster, as we established legally you are taking and sexually assaulting your wife on each occasion you do that while she's asleep. She also may be sexually assaulting you but she is not rapng you. It is not legally possibly for a woman to rape a man. The law doesn't account for it.0
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