The Last of Us - HBO *Spoilers* See warning in post #1

Royale with Cheese

Was there not a massive snowstorm in the game and you could barely see where you were going in that town just before the fire broke out?

Sad Professor

It was originally 10 episodes but they combined and aired the first two episodes together. I think they may have struggled with budget. Once all the sets were built they probably didn't have much money for anything else. A lot of HBO shows have this problem IMO. They make dramas so aren't going to fork out money on action or big visual effect sequences if they don't have to. This may explain why some episodes are quite short - there was probably big sequences planned or scripted but got cut last minute due to lack of funds.

That said, I don't find this or any previous episodes rushed. The wildly different lengths are annoying though and perhaps some of the episodes should have been structured in a less episodic way.

errlloyd

I haven't played the game at all, but I am struggling to love the show (as much as I loved Chernobyl for example). Every episode is self-contained, whatever characters and environments, and challenges get introduced at the beginning of the episode are gone by the end of the episode and seemingly no progress is made on the overall plot - which is just like a video game.

But what annoyed me most about this episode is that they had an opportunity (and apparently intention) to create complexity in the world and in the end they just don't. I am listening to the podcast and the more I listen the more I think Craig Mazin doesn't get it, he says about this episode "we had an opportunity to present the 'other' in a different way to the game, we had an opportunity to present them as humane, as man with his own goals and his own community" - which seems fine at the beginning of the episode. But at the end of the episode, he's a cannibal, rapist, pedophile, megalomaniac, cult leader, who enjoys torture, uses corporal punishment on kids, and is so single-mindedly evil that his desire to sexually assault a child supersedes his desire for self-preservation as the building he is in (and his entire community) burns to the ground. Hardly humane - Mazin is kidding himself in the podcast.

The impact of the let off is that Joel and Ellie butcher a bunch of red shirts without actually showing the impact they are having on the women and children who rely on those red shirts, or without actually requiring Joel or Ellie to interact with that community at all. The emotional weight of Ellie's slaughtering of David is completely lost because by the time she does it he is completely unrelentingly evil. It's almost Tarantino-esque. They hollywood the **** out of it. It's the same thing they did with Kathleen really - pretend to give us a hint of her humanity, but then make her so twisted and hell-bent on revenge, that we didn't really care when she died.

Cordell

@errlloyd you can't blame them for primarily trying to appeal to the video game fans instead of risking to go in new directions that can potentially go wrong with both audiences.

McFly85

In agreement with a lot here, the TV show is starting to feel like there’s too much being left out.

Regarding Joel’s injury - the game had made it clear that there had been a decent passage of time between him getting injured and the events with David’s gang. He still went from sick to grand fairly quickly but I thought it was handled better there than in the show, where it felt like it wasn’t too long at all.

This episode was enjoyable for me because I was filling in the gaps from playing the game(and herself watched me play it so she knew what to expect!) but I can imagine that by itself people might feel they’re not sure why certain things are or aren’t happening. It very much felt like a collection of cutscenes that was missing the narrative building that the gameplay offered.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324361#Comment_120324361

It reminds me of watching The Program (Lance Armstrong movie). That movie felt like people were just acting out bullet point scenes from the books/documentaries.

"This is the buying drugs scene" "This is the meeting Bruyneel scene" etc. Had no sense of flow between scenes.

I was shocked when I realized there is only one more episode. This one didn't give any feel of building to a climax and could have been stuck almost anywhere in the run.

I know it's about their relationship and there is growth there in fairness.

johnny_ultimate

I would agree the show does feel rushed, and probably could've done with an additional episode or so in this final stretch. I do not blame the 'standalone' episodes though, as I feel they add texture and character in interesting - exactly the sort of thing that can be done in episodic form but not really in a film or even a game. I did think Left Behind was more dramatically effective in its game / DLC form, mind you - it felt somewhat flat here, whereas it's by far my favourite part of Naughty Dog's work on the game series.

I have pretty significant issues with the staging in this episode - the whole final confrontation felt too isolated and OTT, and Joel's rapid recovery is pure video game logic but ironically was actually handled a little more naturally in the game (for a more egregious in-game example of the rapid recovery trope, see how quickly Lara Croft recovers from a major injury in Tomb Raider 2013). Like much of the series, the show is too eager to overegg the villains and skip over some of the psychological consequences of the violent scenes our two protagonists experience and indeed are responsible for.

But to give the storytelling credit, I do think it ends in a place that naturally leads into a finale. There's no doubt in that final moment that Ellie and Joel have never been closer to each other, and indeed the entirety of the last two episodes have been majorly focused on the lengths they will both go to to protect each other - Left Behind may be a tangent, but it clearly sets up the emotional stakes of how determined Ellie is to not lose another close companion. That final, desperate hug at the end of the episode is an important moment in making clear the strength of their bond and sets up a final episode quite nicely.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120323446#Comment_120323446

Characters may come and go in other episodes, but the difference is that they come and go into and from Joel and Ellie's story, which is the story of the game/show. With the Bill and Frank episode the opposite happens and that ends up feeling like an interruption. The Mall episode, however, is just a complete halt in the proceedings while Ellie has an 50 minute flashback to events that have already been mentioned by her character. In fact the mall episode is so unnecessary you can, literally, skip it and miss absolutely nothing and that's in a series with just 9 episodes.

Of course HBO will probably try and drag this out until it no longer represents anything we know about the game. I'm sure they already have designs on a S03 and an S04, etc, until it (almost) inevitably becomes a bloated mess.

As for 'The Mandalorian', that's another thread and I'd argue that it didn't do it "well" at all.

Homelander

I think the show has done a wonderful job setting out what it primarily aimed to achieve in its first season - establishing a sense of how the world functions post-event, how dangerous a world it is and how humans are the real threat -and of course the blossoming of the relationship between Joel and Ellie.

Personally, I somewhat understand arguments like the show missed an opportunity to explore how the murdering of most of the men in the town would amount to a death sentence for the women and children that remain. But I think the whole point is that it's Joel and Ellies story, and frankly they don't give a **** what happens to those people..... hence the show leaves it up to our imagination.

I've tremendously enjoyed every episode and certainly didn't feel any of them were unnecessary, a waste of time, or filler. Everything had its place and reason. Can't wait for the finale. Like others I do wish there was more than 9 episodes, but I don't agree that any of them were at all squandered.

Collie D

So did Joel slaughter the entire town or did they just up sticks and go? Place looked deserted as they left.

TheIrishGrover

Yeah, I mentioned a few times that non-players may be a bit underwhelmed by the show. People who knew the source material (Myself included) have being bigging this up (Or the possibility of a series/movie) for years. The game is loved because of it's cinematic storyline, technical excellence and excellent writing and performances.

Within the game you can go around shooting/stabbing up the place (This being a game, that's what you do a lot). But there are moments where you can do that and, if you don't, if you choose to sneak around, you can hear the other characters talking about routine stuff: Being cold, hungry, tired. Or maybe talking about some bogeyman and his terror kid going around shooting up the place. Fearing for their friends that this crazy guy and kid will rampage through their compound. These are normal people that you may or may not end up killing. This is expanded upon massively in the second game with everyone having names, if you shoot someone, their friends can often try to cover them. The point is about the impact of violence. (It must also be said of course that the same studio makes the Uncharted games. A total 180 degree light-hearted murder-spree where you kill one-note baddies by the hundreds. But hey 😀 )

Also (Spoiler for the GAME but not the series. An aspect that is in the GAME that has already been passed over in the series):

Spoiler Warning

In the episode with Henry and Sam, when they come across the long-abandoned safehouse/bunker (With the paintings on the wall where they relax a bit). You can just play through that section. Walking towards the goal. But if you search around in every nook and cranny you discover some notes left behind. They are written by a guy within the safehouse community. Everything is going as OK as possible. Some saved, some not. He's looking after a bunch of kids. But then the notes continue and it charts the downfall of the community. Infected get in, mistakes made. In the end you come across a room with a line of small, covered corpses and a note. That he killed all the kids and then himself to avoid them being infected as the place had been breached. It is heartbreaking.

But I will absolutely agree that this doesn't exactly bring anything NEW to the whole Zombie genre. However, IMHO, the writing, direction and cast is amazing. I hate to sound like a broken record but compare the Ellie-Riley scenes to the very best of TWD and I know which gets MY vote.The entire section was SO close to the source. As a matter of fact, yeah, I agree, this was probably the most "gamey" episode. Joel going around while the day before (Even earlier that day) he was at death's door. And the bit with Ellie and David at the end was SO tense in the source.

For those who don't know, James, David's right-hand-man was played by Troy Baker. He voiced Joel and about a million other games. You played a game with a male voice in it and it's gonna be him or Nolan North

breezy1985

I feel like it's the kind of show could have done with a series of webisodes for all the stories of the people you meet or almost meet.

scrumqueen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120235634#Comment_120235634

I like this too. I'm so jaded from TWD of the horror in every episode of someone getting bitten that its refreshing they can goa couple of episodes and develop characters without a zombie/infected coming for them.

I think its OK so far, Frank episode aside which was amazing. With 1 episode left in S1 I cant see where they're going with it (non game player here obvs ha).

AmberKat

Not familiar at all with the game, however I have been enjoying the series immensely.

I definitely think this episode missed a beat in not showing us what happened to / where everyone disappeared to.

But when you have them calling for the death of a child, it's feels like you aren't supposed to care about them. Add that they are cannibals. The scene where they were cooking, you could tell they knew something was off (I didn't know what it was until later but given the world they have built I had an idea), shows they weren't innocent, that they kept themselves willfully ignorant because they wanted to live.

However I think the episode showed how far the relationship has come from Joel wanting nothing to do with Ellie at the start, to using the pet name he had for his daughter for her at the end of the episode here.

I'd have to go back and rewatch episode 1 but I think that he actually said the exact same thing to Sarah.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325523#Comment_120325523

The people did not call for the death of the child and they did not know they were cannibals.

Although I was really surprised that James (Troy Baker) did know. I expected him to be horrified and be the one to save Ellie but he was well up for taking her apart.

murpho999

I don't get the negative posts about this episode.

Last week people complained that nothing happened (which I don't agree with) and the story didn't progress).

Now this week people are saying it's progressing too much.

For me, as someone who has not played the game yet, it was a very intense 50 mins of TV and I can't get the torture scenes by Joel out of my head. It was vicious as was the final fight for Ellie.

A lot happened and it was a lot to take in

Also Bella Ramsay was just fantastic in this episode.

De Bhál

Great stuff last night, could've deffo stretched a couple of episodes from it.

Joel killing the two captives was rough and as someone with no experience of the game it felt (for me) off kilter with his character

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325740#Comment_120325740

They were trying to kill him. He couldn't exactly let them go and leaving them thete is just a slow death, but the pipe was excessive when he had a perfectly good knife. Videogame Joel would love to have a decent knife.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325740#Comment_120325740

The show has been telling us all the way through that Joel is capable of this.

walkonby

I have had mixed feelings about the series but that was probably the strongest episode since the opener.

But there have been too few episodes, not enough infected encounters, and too little action overall. After a short finale, we are just left with TLOU2, which has a much weaker story.

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325740#Comment_120325740

I took it to be more that it showed more what his character is like and tied into an earlier episode when he said he's done bad things to survive. Just shows how this world has become totally ruthless

Flaneur OBrien

I know they have to, but I really felt NowTV ruined it for me with the sexual violence warning at the start. I was thinking whenever she was running from them, "Sh*t, are they all going to rape her?!" I won't lie, it was one reason Game of Thrones was a very tough watch.

If there was a way to include a warning, that wasn't specific (a tough ask!), that would be the best.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326101#Comment_120326101

The lack of infected makes you wonder why the areas outside the QZs are so bad. The game had another vector for infection, areas concetrated with airborne spores, which could have made for a hazard besides infected but they dropped it for some reason.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326597#Comment_120326597

People walking around in gas masks makes for bad tv

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326680#Comment_120326680

It's an extra challenge but not automatically bad TV.

kerplun k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325107#Comment_120325107

Was actually just coming here to ask the same question. Surly not I think.

I’m curious why no one came out to put out the fire, but there’s no way Joel murdered a whole town of people. As far as I remember there’s not a drop of evidence that supports this theory.

brianregan09

I would imagine no one came out because of the massive blizzard going on at the time

gmisk

Another really good episode this week....but it felt a tad rushed? But in fairness give me that any day over the way the walking dead would treat it...the cannibals would be a whole plodding season (in fact it was if I remember!). Maybe there is some middle ground though.

I am guessing town was quiet due to weather it was also hard to tell time of day it could have been extremely early.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326597#Comment_120326597

I am guessing they would struggle for supplies and food (hence the eating people...). Raiders etc have been mentioned a lot as well.

I would say they dropped it because you can't see the actors faces if they have masks on? Plus maybe it would make it too easy to spread it?

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327094#Comment_120327094

Without infected showing up a lot it begs the question why everything is so scarce. They don't have to slaughter a load of them in every episode but forcing them to go around because of them would do. As far as we know from watching the series only cities like Boston and Pittsburg Kansas City have infected making things difficult other places are relatively free of them.