General British politics discussion thread

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Please feel free to discuss the UK-Australia trade deal in the Brexit thread. I've moved two posts.

First Up

Strazdas wrote:

I've watched a few of the GB News clips on Youtube. Main problem with it is that it seems to be all culture war stuff i.e. trivial nonsense like flags and statues and knees and the like, something that barely impacts on anyone's life at all.

From what I have seen it has the style of Fox News and the intellectual content of the Daily Mail.

Unfortunately there is a market for exactly that.

weemcd

Strazdas wrote: »

I've watched a few of the GB News clips on Youtube. Main problem with it is that it seems to be all culture war stuff i.e. trivial nonsense like flags and statues and knees and the like, something that barely impacts on anyone's life at all.

Is this what Brexit UK is reduced to? Focus on total nonsense while ignoring important issues such as housing, healthcare, unemployment, education, food banks, inequality etc.

I think this is exactly what large sections of England have been reduced to. I don't know where that road ends.. Brexit and the UK Covid response have been unparalleled disasters. Many of the British public don't seem to have noticed? Could you imagine if they tried this in Paris? The streets would quite literally be red with blood.

devnull

Strazdas wrote: »

I've watched a few of the GB News clips on Youtube. Main problem with it is that it seems to be all culture war stuff i.e. trivial nonsense like flags and statues and knees and the like, something that barely impacts on anyone's life at all.

Is this what Brexit UK is reduced to? Focus on total nonsense while ignoring important issues such as housing, healthcare, unemployment, education, food banks, inequality etc.

Ironically one of the things they have been banging on about the most, pretty much since launch night, is the fact that the England football teams are responsible for starting culture wars by taking the knee and we should blame them rather than the people booing.

pixelburp

Strazdas wrote: »

I've watched a few of the GB News clips on Youtube. Main problem with it is that it seems to be all culture war stuff i.e. trivial nonsense like flags and statues and knees and the like, something that barely impacts on anyone's life at all.

Is this what Brexit UK is reduced to? Focus on total nonsense while ignoring important issues such as housing, healthcare, unemployment, education, food banks, inequality etc.

You've kind of answered your own question there: proper societal and economic examination would reveal that the machines the likes of GB News work in tandem with are fundamentally shoddy, and not remotely fair to the ordinary worker. Easier, and more seductive to distract with polemics about immigrants stealing jobs, Muslims about to blow you up in the high street, or the EU jealousy trying to stymy Britain Ascendant.

Strazdas

pixelburp wrote: »

You've kind of answered your own question there: proper societal and economic examination would reveal that the machines the likes of GB News work in tandem with are fundamentally shoddy, and not remotely fair to the ordinary worker. Easier, and more seductive to distract with polemics about immigrants stealing jobs, Muslims about to blow you up in the high street, or the EU jealousy trying to stymy Britain Ascendant.

There seems to be a deliberate policy by the Brexit govt and their media backers to use culture wars to distract from the 'real' issues.

It's downright weird to watch though. Imagine debating whether a flag being flown or a portrait of the Queen being removed somewhere is the most important issue facing the country that day. As you suggest, how long before GB News moves on from this to highlighting immigration, refugees, multiculturalism etc every day? That's where it will probably head very soon. The flags and statues and knees stuff is just a preamble.

breezy1985

Strazdas wrote: »

There seems to be a deliberate policy by the Brexit govt and their media backers to use culture wars to distract from the 'real' issues.

It's downright weird to watch though. Imagine debating whether a flag being flown or a portrait of the Queen being removed somewhere is the most important issue facing the country that day. As you suggest, how long before GB News moves on from this to highlighting immigration, refugees, multiculturalism etc every day? That's where it will probably head very soon. The flags and statues and knees stuff is just a preamble.

Its weird how bad grown adults get about whether someone bows low enough, kneels with the proper or accidentally calls Elizabeth majesty instead of highness cause it's 10am and majesty should only be used after lunch or some nonsense.

Joe_ Public

These people losing their heads over a picture of the queen being taken down off a student common room wall. How on earth would they have coped with Johnny Rotten in the 70s? Of course the whole thing is fake anyway, manufactured outrage to distract from the bigger issues, as already pointed out, and to suck the opposition into the trap of thinking this is what the british people want to talk about. Regrettably, as a tactic, i think it carries some punch.

breezy1985

Joe_ Public wrote: »

These people losing their heads over a picture of the queen being taken down off a student common room wall. How on earth would they have coped with Johnny Rotten in the 70s? Of course the whole thing is fake anyway, manufactured outrage to distract from the bigger issues, as already pointed out, and to suck the opposition into the trap of thinking this is what the british people want to talk about. Regrettably, as a tactic, i think it carries some punch.

Its hard to know what to do with it though challenge it or ignore it. I used laugh my arse off at EDL rallies in London thinking everyone else felt the same as my but looking back they were clearly getting through to people

pixelburp

Joe_ Public wrote: »

These people losing their heads over a picture of the queen being taken down off a student common room wall. How on earth would they have coped with Johnny Rotten in the 70s? Of course the whole thing is fake anyway, manufactured outrage to distract from the bigger issues, as already pointed out, and to suck the opposition into the trap of thinking this is what the british people want to talk about. Regrettably, as a tactic, i think it carries some punch.

Thing is, I kinda get it. Kinda. A country is busying itself trying to deliberately self-destruct its own economy - while telling itself it's all for the Greater Good and restoring some abstract sense of sovereignty and past glory (with the architects of this direction making away like bandits). So of course with that uptick in national Sunk Cost bias, certain outlets would decide to double-down on symbols of jingoism. It's all they have right now. All the relevance and swagger of a Top Gear episode gone wrong.

As a contrast, remember the mid to late 90s? Remember "Cool Britannia", when Great Britain truly had a brief cultural reach - spurred on by the many chart-topping musical acts? The union flag suddenly a (hideous) fashion icon, as famously demonstrated by Ginger Spice? Obviously ignoring the parts of the world the flag had some painful memories.

It all seems so hilariously innocent now, yet also a demonstration of the UK exacting its reach, without the need to dip into malevolent nationalism. Wouldn't happen now mind you, too much water has passed under the bridge but you also wonder how it all went so wrong, culturally speaking.

Joe_ Public

breezy1985 wrote: »

Its hard to know what to do with it though challenge it or ignore it. I used laugh my arse off at EDL rallies in London thinking everyone else felt the same as my but looking back they were clearly getting through to people

It's not easy, i concede that. But from what i've seen labour has been reacting to it for most of the past year and i can't see where it's got them. Only where their opponents want them to go. Andy Burnham fielded a question about the picture of the queen last week and rather stumbled his way uncertainty through it. I think he should have called it out for the nonsense it was or, if he wasn't au fait with the details, at least kick to touch. Move it back to the real issues asap. Easier said than done i know, but a guy as slick as Burnham should be well able for that. Don't try to fake it like i think others do.

ancapailldorcha

pixelburp wrote: »

Thing is, I kinda get it. Kinda. A country is busying itself trying to deliberately self-destruct its own economy - while telling itself it's all for the Greater Good and restoring some abstract sense of sovereignty and past glory (with the architects of this direction making away like bandits). So of course with that uptick in national Sunk Cost bias, certain outlets would decide to double-down on symbols of jingoism. It's all they have right now. All the relevance and swagger of a Top Gear episode gone wrong.

As a contrast, remember the mid to late 90s? Remember "Cool Britannia", when Great Britain truly had a brief cultural reach - spurred on by the many chart-topping musical acts? The union flag suddenly a (hideous) fashion icon, as famously demonstrated by Ginger Spice? Obviously ignoring the parts of the world the flag had some painful memories.

It all seems so hilariously innocent now, yet also a demonstration of the UK exacting its reach, without the need to dip into malevolent nationalism. Wouldn't happen now mind you, too much water has passed under the bridge but you also wonder how it all went so wrong, culturally speaking.

Funnily enough, I was thinking the other day how the sovereignty argument just dissipated into the air, like the £350 million for the NHS one. I've noted some passing references in tweets but nobody seems to be bothered as far as I can tell. I've long been saying now that very, very few people are even bothering to pretend that there's going to be any benefits at all to Brexit.

What's concerning is that nobody seems to be aware of how this happened or that Johnson and Gove were the two most prominent senior Tories in agitating for it. Once the referendum was over, most people just shrugged and considered the thing done.

I think the closest thing there is to aspirations for the country now are middle class Brexity types who are treating the whole thing like it's some sort of farce. Well, they're not wrong in that I suppose. The Australian trade deal isn't about trade, it's about sticking it to remainers, liberals, socialists and the woke (whoever they are). Who cares if a few farmers go bankrupt because they can still get the good stuff at Waitrose.

There's a great piece in this week's Economist about how the US has gone from exporting the positive aspects of its culture to the negative aspects. By contrast, the UK seems to have undergone a rapid cultural shift. When I came here initially, it was all the Cool Britannia of the Olympic games. Now, it's GB News and petty bickering that students somewhere took down a portrait of the queen. Nobody wants to ask why or to have a debate, just to point the finger and moan. I'm finishing a book on Ancient Rome and wonder if inane wailing about trivial nonsense was common at the end of that empire as well.

breezy1985

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Funnily enough, I was thinking the other day how the sovereignty argument just dissipated into the air, like the £350 million for the NHS one. I've noted some passing references in tweets but nobody seems to be bothered as far as I can tell. I've long been saying now that very, very few people are even bothering to pretend that there's going to be any benefits at all to Brexit.

What's concerning is that nobody seems to be aware of how this happened or that Johnson and Gove were the two most prominent senior Tories in agitating for it. Once the referendum was over, most people just shrugged and considered the thing done.

I think the closest thing there is to aspirations for the country now are middle class Brexity types who are treating the whole thing like it's some sort of farce. Well, they're not wrong in that I suppose. The Australian trade deal isn't about trade, it's about sticking it to remainers, liberals, socialists and the woke (whoever they are). Who cares if a few farmers go bankrupt because they can still get the good stuff at Waitrose.

There's a great piece in this week's Economist about how the US has gone from exporting the positive aspects of its culture to the negative aspects. By contrast, the UK seems to have undergone a rapid cultural shift. When I came here initially, it was all the Cool Britannia of the Olympic games. Now, it's GB News and petty bickering that students somewhere took down a portrait of the queen. Nobody wants to ask why or to have a debate, just to point the finger and moan. I'm finishing a book on Ancient Rome and wonder if inane wailing about trivial nonsense was common at the end of that empire as well.

I moved over just after the Olympics and the sense of London as a place to be a place where anything was possible was palpable. Still find it hard to reconcile that London and the one I left in 2020

Strazdas

pixelburp wrote: »

Thing is, I kinda get it. Kinda. A country is busying itself trying to deliberately self-destruct its own economy - while telling itself it's all for the Greater Good and restoring some abstract sense of sovereignty and past glory (with the architects of this direction making away like bandits). So of course with that uptick in national Sunk Cost bias, certain outlets would decide to double-down on symbols of jingoism. It's all they have right now. All the relevance and swagger of a Top Gear episode gone wrong.

As a contrast, remember the mid to late 90s? Remember "Cool Britannia", when Great Britain truly had a brief cultural reach - spurred on by the many chart-topping musical acts? The union flag suddenly a (hideous) fashion icon, as famously demonstrated by Ginger Spice? Obviously ignoring the parts of the world the flag had some painful memories.

It all seems so hilariously innocent now, yet also a demonstration of the UK exacting its reach, without the need to dip into malevolent nationalism. Wouldn't happen now mind you, too much water has passed under the bridge but you also wonder how it all went so wrong, culturally speaking.

I would say even as recently as the Olympic Games Opening Ceremony in 2012, Britain seemed the coolest place on the planet - Mr Bean & Chariots of Fire, James Bond meets the Queen etc.

The fall from grace has been hideous. A retreat into right wing nationalism and jingoism (and yes, xenophobia and racism) and chancers like Farage and Johnson coming to the fore.

Joe_ Public

Strazdas wrote: »

I would say even as recently as the Olympic Games Opening Ceremony in 2012, Britain seemed the coolest place on the planet - Mr Bean & Chariots of Fire, James Bond meets the Queen etc.

The fall from grace has been hideous. A retreat into right wing nationalism and jingoism (and yes, xenophobia and racism) and chancers like Farage and Johnson coming to the fore.

Not forgetting the windrush float, which showed what a weloming and inclusive society Britain was, all while Theresa May was busy devising policies that would see 100s of them unjustly deported over the next 6 years.

breezy1985

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Not forgetting the windrush float, which showed what a weloming and inclusive society Britain was, all while Theresa May was busy devising policies that would see 100s of them unjustly deported over the next 6 years.

Was it May that commissioned the mobile signboards encouraging people to report illegal immigrants ?

Not sure if it ever got noticed here but I remember being pretty shocked by them at the time.post 7/7 the Met posted out leaflets encouraging people to report on suspicious neighbours which I found pretty chilling. I bet most reports amounted to "suspicious" neighbours doing dodgy things like wearing a turban or displaying a tricolour

Joe_ Public

breezy1985 wrote: »

Was it May that commissioned the mobile signboards encouraging people to report illegal immigrants ?

Not sure if it ever got noticed here but I remember being pretty shocked by them at the time.post 7/7 the Met posted out leaflets encouraging people to report on suspicious neighbours which I found pretty chilling. I bet most reports amounted to "suspicious" neighbours doing dodgy things like wearing a turban or displaying a tricolour

Whether she actually "commissioned" it or not, it was carried out under her watch, she set the mood and atmosphere under which this and other policies were introduced. Cameron also can take some of the credit by setting those targets to be reached.

On reporting suspicious behaviour, i recall a prominent british black musician - maybe stormzy but not sure - having the police called on him when he was entering his own home. A neighbour saw a black man entering a nice house in a nice neighbourhood and could only conclude a burglary was under way!

Capt'n Midnight

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think the closest thing there is to aspirations for the country now are middle class Brexity types who are treating the whole thing like it's some sort of farce. Well, they're not wrong in that I suppose. The Australian trade deal isn't about trade, it's about sticking it to remainers, liberals, socialists and the woke (whoever they are). Who cares if a few farmers go bankrupt because they can still get the good stuff at Waitrose.

Thanks to distractions like Covid and having filled warehouses earlier the full effects haven't been seen by the public. It's like 1939 and the Phoney War.

It's not May 1940 yet. It's not even April 1940.

breezy1985

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Whether she actually "commissioned" it or not, it was carried out under her watch, she set the mood and atmosphere under which this and other policies were introduced. Cameron also can take some of the credit by setting those targets to be reached.

On reporting suspicious behaviour, i recall a prominent british black musician - maybe stormzy but not sure - having the police called on him when he was entering his own home. A neighbour saw a black man entering a nice house in a nice neighbourhood and could only conclude a burglary was under way!

Not sure but I think I remember a few Black footballers making similar complaints. Mario Balotelli definitely got stopped for being in a "stolen" car but in fairness he also had a gearbag full of cash in the passenger seat as he liked to drive round town handing out money

Capt'n Midnight

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Whether she actually "commissioned" it or not, it was carried out under her watch, she set the mood and atmosphere under which this and other policies were introduced. Cameron also can take some of the credit by setting those targets to be reached.

How difficult can it be to limit immigration from third party countries to 100,000 when you have complete control of the system and are the ones issuing the visas and making the decision on settled status ?

It was only ever a sound bite.
Like fixing the potholes that keep getting local politicians re-elected.

Stats for the past year
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-statistics-year-ending-march-2021/summary-of-latest-statistics

‘Seasonal Workers’ were the only former Tier 5 route to see an increase, nearly quadrupling from 2,861 to 10,659. Of those granted a Seasonal Worker visa in the year ending March 2021, 85% were Ukrainian nationals.

Joe_ Public

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

How difficult can it be to limit immigration from third party countries to 100,000 when you have complete control of the system and are the ones issuing the visas and making the decision on settled status ?

It was only ever a sound bite.
Like fixing the potholes that keep getting local politicians re-elected.

Stats for the past year
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-statistics-year-ending-march-2021/summary-of-latest-statistics

Sure, that is true, but the thing was they wanted to get people out as well as stop them from coming and that was what the hostile environment was all about, make it such a hostile place to be that people would voluntarily opt to leave, whether they were illegal or not. And those targets were set at the top and filtered right down to staff level where they were under pressure to rack up so many removals each per week/month/year or whatever. And not that much has changed when you consider what has been happening to eu nationals and the fact that the majority of appeals against deportation are won. They should not have been processed in the first place but the hostile environment decrees that they must.

pixelburp

Well, that didn't take long: reports are that Ikea, Vodafone, Kopparberg and Grolsch will be pulling any and all adverts from running during any GB News broadcasts. I guess that's the first "cancel culture" rant guaranteed, no doubt accompanying some flimsy attempt to boycott these "anti British" companies.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

[...]

There's a great piece in this week's Economist about how the US has gone from exporting the positive aspects of its culture to the negative aspects. By contrast, the UK seems to have undergone a rapid cultural shift. When I came here initially, it was all the Cool Britannia of the Olympic games. Now, it's GB News and petty bickering that students somewhere took down a portrait of the queen. Nobody wants to ask why or to have a debate, just to point the finger and moan. I'm finishing a book on Ancient Rome and wonder if inane wailing about trivial nonsense was common at the end of that empire as well.

breezy1985 wrote: »

I moved over just after the Olympics and the sense of London as a place to be a place where anything was possible was palpable. Still find it hard to reconcile that London and the one I left in 2020

That's true re. the Olympics though honestly? I had genuinely forgotten about them. Maybe due to Brexit trumping the zeitgeist; but probably as well because aside from that brief bump in optimism, the Games have increasingly been seen as a drain on national resources, a pox on urban development at the expense of local amenities. Once the pageantry disappears, cities are left with colossal facilities going to waste. I believe London was no different, but open to correction.

Besides, not like London isn't seen as a different planet to the rest of England, whereas "Cool Britannia" seemed more of a sustained, top-to-bottom sense of cultural impact; of a Britain ascendant in a collaborative, artistic & expressive sense with many of its key characters like the Gallaghers from outside London. While the flag remained an antagonistic symbol to many across the globe, the nature of the movement more well-meaning and good-intentioned than naked jingoism. Nationalism that now appears to have taken over the outward mood of the country.

Strazdas

pixelburp wrote: »

That's true re. the Olympics though honestly? I had genuinely forgotten about them. Maybe due to Brexit trumping the zeitgeist; but probably as well because aside from that brief bump in optimism, the Games have increasingly been seen as a drain on national resources, a pox on urban development at the expense of local amenities. Once the pageantry disappears, cities are left with colossal facilities going to waste. I believe London was no different, but open to correction.

Besides, not like London isn't seen as a different planet to the rest of England, whereas "Cool Britannia" seemed more of a sustained, top-to-bottom sense of cultural impact; of a Britain ascendant in a collaborative, artistic & expressive sense with many of its key characters like the Gallaghers from outside London. While the flag remained an antagonistic symbol to many across the globe, the nature of the movement more well-meaning and good-intentioned than naked jingoism. Nationalism that now appears to have taken over the outward mood of the country.

Something that also gets overlooked is the age gap factor. Most of the bigots, racists, intolerant cretins, uneducated idiots etc seem to be much older or OAPs. It's anyone's guess how this age cohort in England became so radicalised and hate filled.

The big hope for the future is the younger generation. They seem far more liberal and tolerant : many of them have black and Muslim friends and are at ease with themselves. Very noticeable that the Johnson and Farage disciples mostly seem to be ageing cranks.

Leroy42

Strazdas wrote: »

Something that also gets overlooked is the age gap factor. Most of the bigots, racists, intolerant cretins, uneducated idiots etc seem to be much older or OAPs. It's anyone's guess how this age cohort in England became so radicalised and hate filled.

The big hope for the future is the younger generation. They seem far more liberal and tolerant : many of them have black and Muslim friends and are at ease with themselves. Very noticeable that the Johnson and Farage disciples mostly seem to be ageing cranks.

Yes, but 20 years ago they were seen as the liberals and progressives.

People tend to get more conservative (in outlook, not party affiliation although in the UK it is one and the same) as they get older.

So it is very likely that the liberals that you are placing confidence in today will end up the same as the older cohort is today. Particularly given the media landscape and the daily message that the EU and outsiders are bad and everyone is out to get the UK!

Strazdas

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yes, but 20 years ago they were seen as the liberals and progressives.

People tend to get more conservative (in outlook, not party affiliation although in the UK it is one and the same) as they get older.

So it is very likely that the liberals that you are placing confidence in today will end up the same as the older cohort is today. Particularly given the media landscape and the daily message that the EU and outsiders are bad and everyone is out to get the UK!

I definitely get that people in general become more staid and conservative as they get older, but the English OAPs are something else entirely.....I would class them as virtually far right in their intolerance and bigotry.

The problem with English politics of course is that older people are much more likely to vote and the FPTP system guarantees that the preferences of these ageing cranks get to dominate the political landscape.

pixelburp

Strazdas wrote: »

Something that also gets overlooked is the age gap factor. Most of the bigots, racists, intolerant cretins, uneducated idiots etc seem to be much older or OAPs. It's anyone's guess how this age cohort in England became so radicalised and hate filled.

The big hope for the future is the younger generation. They seem far more liberal and tolerant : many of them have black and Muslim friends and are at ease with themselves. Very noticeable that the Johnson and Farage disciples mostly seem to be ageing cranks.

I dunno, disenfranchisement happens over time and the young and liberal can quickly become older and beaten as the necessities of life press down. Especially in urban centres either struggling to remain viable in the North, or those ethnically diverse cities in the midlands and southward that are fraying a little. Divisions can quickly descend among those previously unified by a sense of liberal inclusivity. Brexit already opened those sores between London's obvious metropolitan, expansive view indicative by its resistance to leaving the EU.

To the demographics becoming more prominent... eh, I dunno either. Windrush; Grenfell; the tipping of that statue to Colston into the waters of Bristol: there's obviously a simmering discontent reflective in Britain's inability to front up to its past as the nominal conqueror of the globe. That action in Bristol was either seen as righteous or thuggery, the latter often with muttered connotations. Those ethnic groups might quickly look inward if there's no sense the country gives a damn about addressing its own history; and I'm pretty confident GB News won't be part of any conversation that would happen - save that probably Bad Take that Britain was a net benefit to the world, a guiding hand towards civilisation for which we should be grateful (IIRC, an argument already espoused by some)

Strazdas

pixelburp wrote: »

I dunno, disenfranchisement happens over time and the young and liberal can quickly become older and beaten as the necessities of life press down. Especially in urban centres either struggling to remain viable in the North, or those ethnically diverse cities in the midlands and southward that are fraying a little. Divisions can quickly descend among those previously unified by a sense of liberal inclusivity. Brexit already opened those sores between London's obvious metropolitan, expansive view indicative by its resistance to leaving the EU.

To the demographics becoming more prominent... eh, I dunno either. Windrush; Grenfell; the tipping of that statue to Colston into the waters of Bristol: there's obviously a simmering discontent reflective in Britain's inability to front up to its past as the nominal conqueror of the globe. That action in Bristol was either seen as righteous or thuggery, the latter often with muttered connotations. Those ethnic groups might quickly look inward if there's no sense the country gives a damn about addressing its own history; and I'm pretty confident GB News won't be part of any conversation that would happen - save that probably Bad Take that Britain was a net benefit to the world, a guiding hand towards civilisation for which we should be grateful (IIRC, an argument already espoused by some)

Some good points here. What worries me also is that FPTP and the two party system makes it virtually impossible for English politics to reflect the fact that political opinions are all over the place (and that the two main parties at the moment are mostly useless and terrible).

You make an excellent point about the lack of real debate in England about the country's history and current place in the world. The liberal press are trying to draw attention to it, but are often shouted down and accused of being anti-British and even traitors for going there ('woke lefty idiots who hate Britain' etc).

BlitzKrieg

Strazdas wrote: »

I definitely get that people in general become more staid and conservative as they get older,

The more conservative when you get older is primarily because you become more protective of what you have when older so are less willing to potentially risk it all by voting for people or groups who might talk about notions like redistributing wealth etc. Simple things like becoming a home owner is enough to make some one a bit more conservative.


Problem facing conservatives at the moment is people are getting less to be protective about as they get older because of how f*cked things are these days that simple things like being a home owner is a distant thought for people even at the age of 40.

So the rate of people becoming conservative as they get older is dropping.

Same sense of protectiveness over other social/culture aspects tend to apply in the same logic which has not reduced as rapidly which is why I think a lot of right wing groups have leaned much more on the culture war these days.

Strazdas

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

The more conservative when you get older is primarily because you become more protective of what you have when older so are less willing to potentially risk it all by voting for people or groups who might talk about notions like redistributing wealth etc. Simple things like becoming a home owner is enough to make some one a bit more conservative.


Problem facing conservatives at the moment is people are getting less to be protective about as they get older because of how f*cked things are these days that simple things like being a home owner is a distant thought for people even at the age of 40.

So the rate of people becoming conservative as they get older is dropping.

Same sense of protectiveness over other social/culture aspects tend to apply in the same logic which has not reduced as rapidly which is why I think a lot of right wing groups have leaned much more on the culture war these days.

I'd add too that many people do 'not' become conservative as they get older. There are lots of people in their 60s and older who are not racists, bigots, sexists, homophobes etc. There might well be other factors at work such as a lack of education in those who choose to become bigoted (or they are simply thick and incapable of understanding or adapting to the changing world around them, hence them falling for cheap populist slogans).

ancapailldorcha

Strazdas wrote: »

Something that also gets overlooked is the age gap factor. Most of the bigots, racists, intolerant cretins, uneducated idiots etc seem to be much older or OAPs. It's anyone's guess how this age cohort in England became so radicalised and hate filled.

The big hope for the future is the younger generation. They seem far more liberal and tolerant : many of them have black and Muslim friends and are at ease with themselves. Very noticeable that the Johnson and Farage disciples mostly seem to be ageing cranks.

I put it down to the press for the most part. When I moved here, I was shocked at how utterly brazen some of the tabloids here are. I'm amazed that no government ever deregulated broadcast media in the same way.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yes, but 20 years ago they were seen as the liberals and progressives.

People tend to get more conservative (in outlook, not party affiliation although in the UK it is one and the same) as they get older.

So it is very likely that the liberals that you are placing confidence in today will end up the same as the older cohort is today. Particularly given the media landscape and the daily message that the EU and outsiders are bad and everyone is out to get the UK!

See, I think the catch with that old Churchill quote is that you become financially conservative if you have a stake in the system. If today's 20-30 year olds can't afford a property, what happens when they're 70 and the welfare state needs to prop them up on the private sector? I saw a statistic that well over 90% of pensioners outright own their homes so essentially the cost of welfare will explode and their being pensioners means cutting it isn't an option.

The Conservative party is acting in a very myopic manner. They need to build the next generation of Tory voters. People my age were just starting to vote Tory in 2015 but since they're now the party of flagrant nationalism, that doesn't address my concerns about housing, Brexit, equality, healthcare or the economy.

Socially, I think that people with liberal outlooks just don't shift so what was liberal in the eighties might be considered normal or slightly conservative now.