General British politics discussion thread

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083313#Comment_122083313

It's not quite as simple as that. CTA affords certain rights to UK and IRL citizens that it doesn't afford to citizens of other countries, but it doesn't follow that it "doesn't apply" to third-country citizens. It has quite extensive implications for them, since each country effectively undertakes to apply the other country's migration rules to transit passengers.

If you arrive in Heathrow from, say, Australia, intending to catch a connecting flight to Ireland, you don't need a migration status that would allow you to enter the UK; you can enter for the purpose of transiting to Ireland if you have a migration status that allows you to enter Ireland. But the UK border official needs to be satisfied that you do have a migration status allowing you to enter Ireland. In other words, the UK undertakes to enforce Irish migration rules on people transiting to Ireland via the UK (and vice versa — if you turn up in, say, Shannon to catch a connecting flight to London the Irish officials will apply UK migration rules to determine whether you are allowed to do that).

Your Chinese friend may have come to Ireland via Heathrow, and she would have been allowed to do that even though not otherwise entitled to enter the UK, because she lacked a UK visa. If so, it was the application of the CTA that allowed her to clear UK immigration and transit to Ireland.

The apparent weakness in the system is that, having come to Ireland, she could in practice enter the UK simply by crossing the NI border, which the UK does not police (and has never policed) for migration purposes. But the UK has always reckoned they can live with this because (a) the number of people who have a migration status allowing them to enter Ireland but not the UK is not large, and (b) they rely on in-country controls to detect people who have entered the UK without leave. If things get really bad, they can always apply migration checks on NI-GB transport links (as they have done from time to time in the past) in order to prevent people from entering GB via NI.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083994#Comment_122083994

That is basically true but it does not take account of the position of third country individuals who have the right to remain in Ireland (as for example students studying at an Irish university) but do not have the right to enter the UK without a visa.

In the case I am aware of, a Chinese woman was living in Dublin with her husband who was training as a doctor. He required to move to Scotland as part of his training. He could come and go as he pleased because of his passport status, but she could not enter the UK.

Transit arrangements are one thing, but this is different. As also is the case of those seeking IP.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084275#Comment_122084275

Yes. The CTA applies to allow her to transit through the UK when travelling between Ireland and China, but it doesn't allow here to enter the UK for other purposes.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084381#Comment_122084381

Well extending that to those moving from the UK to Ireland and seeking International Protection gives rise to conflict of rights.

Can someone, as on the vox pop this morning, self described as a person from Pakistan who has lived for some time in the UK working in a coffee shop and traveled to Ireland via NI claim IP, or should they be returned to the UK as an illegal immigrant? Or should they be refused IP status and be returned to Pakistan? Or perhaps told to take the bus back to NI and not return?

This is a difficult issue with a hostile UK PM (of Indian extract and with a wealthy (non-dom) Indian wife) who is intent on sending all those foreign types to Rwanda despite his obligations under international law and the GFA.

His Gov has already shown contempt for NI and the GFA by bringing in the cessation of investigations (from today) into deaths in the NI troubles by UK security forces.

Tom Mann Centuria

I did think the original announcement was brave and bold by Starmer and gave me a bit of hope. How long did that one last?

https://www.ft.com/content/fe1608d1-3a61-43a0-9c17-2868c40821c2

ancapailldorcha

It'd be nice if we could see what exactly's being watered down instead of having to click on a paywalled article.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084520#Comment_122084520

Article is light on actual detail but two things that stood out is the promise on "fair pay agreements" now only covering the social care sector, and workers "right to switch off" gone (replaced by some likely meaningless code-of-practice).

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084434#Comment_122084434

OK, couple of points.

A citizen of Pakistan who enters IRL without a visa isn’t doing anything illegal. They are liable to be refused entry if they present at a port or airport, but if they enter from NI or if they are not refused entry at a port or airport they have broken no laws. They are liable to be removed, if detected, but not on the basis of having broken any laws; simply on the basis of having no right to remain.

Can they be returned to the UK? Yes, they can, and in fact this happens quite often. It usually happens when people are refused entry at a port or airport, having arrived on a flight/sailing from the UK, but also happens when they are detected having entered from NI.

UK accepts this because it’s an aspect of the CTA. It’s a reciprocal arrangement; if the boot is on the other foot we accept people sent back to IRL from UK.

Can the citizen of Pakistan forestall being returned to UK by applying for refugee protection in IRL?

As a matter of Irish law, an applicant for protection can be returned to the UK if three conditions are satisfied.

1. The person arrived in IRL from the UK;

2. The UK is designated as a “safe third country” under Irish law. (Designation is made by ministerial order; certain conditions must be satisfied before the Minister can make the order. There is ongoing litigation about whether the UK has been validly designated but let’s assume that that gets resolved and the UK is a “safe third country”.)

3. The UK is a “safe country” for that person.

Conditions 2 and 3 look like they overlap, but they are different. Designation as a “safe third country” is a general matter; the UK (or any other country) can be designated if broad conditions are satisfied — life and liberty are not threated in that country on account of race, religion etc; the country doesn’t send people to other countries where they would be at risk of persecution; the country applies the Refugee Convention; etc. But being a “safe country” for a particular person looks at the circumstances of that person. Do they have a connection with the country on the basis of which it is reasonable for them to return there? Will they be subject to the death penalty there? And, crucially, will they be readmitted?

Quite separately from the question of whether Irish law permits a person to be removed to the UK is the question of whether the UK will accept them. As noted, the UK does accept people who travel from the UK and are (a) refused entry to Ireland or (b) are detected in Ireland. They are not legally obliged to, but there are well-established reciprocal arrangements under which they do. Although not legally binding, they are an aspect of the CTA, which the UK should, and I think would, be slow to unpick.

But what the UK now seems to be saying is that it won’t accept the return of those people if they have applied for asylum in Ireland.

The dust hasn’t really settled on this. No doubt what the UK would say is that this is not them withdrawing from the CTA or undermining the CTA; it’s just a very minor tweak around the borders of the CTA, which isn’t mainly concerned with the return of third-country citizens anyway. The Irish government will take a different view. The two sides will have to thrash it out. IRL, to my mind, has been foolish in raising the issue in the way that it did at the time that it did; Sunak has zero political capital and very little room for manouvre, and this is pretty much the worst possible time to try to get the UK to address this issue, but we are where we are.

If we can’t return them to the UK, can we refuse them IP status and return them to Pakistan? We cannot refuse them IP status on the basis of the fact that they entered Ireland without a visa; the Refugee Convention expressly prohibits this, and it’s easy to see why. We can assess the merits of their application and, if we find it to be unmerited, refuse IP status and return them to Pakistan (if they don’t leave IRL voluntarily, which many failed applicants do).

Can we, instead of assessing their application, put them on a train to Belfast? Yes, if the three conditions already mentioned are satisfied. But one of them is that the UK should be a safe country for the applicant, and it’s only a safe country if they will be readmitted to the UK. And I don’t think that means “can they, in practice, get in” but rather “can they get in without being at risk of rejection at the border, or of deportation if detected in the country”? And that’s an issue that’s still up in the air.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084668#Comment_122084668

Fair enough. I just think it's poor form to dump an article that's behind a paywall.

I don't really know what "fair pay agreements" are beyond the basic concept and some kind of right to switch off will probably appear at some point. Looks like a nothing story.

Tom Mann Centuria

https://archive.is/2024.05.01-064200/https%3A//www.ft.com/content/fe1608d1-3a61-43a0-9c17-2868c40821c2

I read that article on the link I originally posted, it wasn't paywalled or I had a free pass or something so was unaware people were unable to see it.

A failure of etiquette, and for the awful hardship caused for those few minutes I humbly apologise.

(If the above link doesn't work, try opening it in a new tab, which seems to work for me. Thoughts and prayers if it doesn't.)

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084793#Comment_122084793

I'm not a fan of Starmer, he's a Tory-lite, Blairite, PoS. But there's some important stuff in that proposed package (assuming it actually gets through and "Labour" doesn't do a U-Turn on it).

Labour has vowed to include in its manifesto a long list of employment
policies ranging from higher sick pay to ending employers’ use of “fire
and rehire”, and reversing anti-strike legislation as part of its “New
Deal for Working People”.

As someone who's been "let go" from jobs and seen other people hired (in one case myself rehired on contract) for cheaper, the ending of "fire and rehire" is a good thing AFAIC.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086298#Comment_122086298

You never know once the election is done and they have a big majority maybe they U-turn the other way and go back to the non watered down plans.

People can say all they like that Labour and Tories are the same but anyone who says that and has to live with a defunded NHS or bankrupt councils is talking out their hole.

A local Tory chair was interviewed on The Guardian saying that people in her constituency "should vote Tory so they can keep up the good work they are doing despite the struggles of councils having little money"

Clown never stops to think who is to blame for that lack of money.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086350#Comment_122086350

People can say all they like that Labour and Tories are the same but anyone who says that and has to live with a defunded NHS or bankrupt councils is talking out their hole.

I don't know that anyone claims that Labour and the Conservatives are the "same", especially with the current iteration of the Tories, because that party has been drifting further and further to the right since the days of Thatcher towards the disastrous mess that it is now. However, Labour is a shadow of its former self and what it once represented, that's for damn sure.

A local Tory chair was interviewed on The Guardian saying that people in her constituency "should vote Tory so they can keep up the good work they are doing despite the struggles of councils having little money" Clown never stops to think who is to blame for that lack of money.

Well, that's just a typical Conservative blurb. Unthinking, uncaring and obliviously remarking on things without a single ounce of reflection.

Tom Mann Centuria

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086512#Comment_122086512

I don't think any iteration of Labour could be as bad as this version of The Conservatory Party.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086564#Comment_122086564

Perhaps.

But Labour are too busy stabbing themselves in the back, while the Tories are content to keep stabbing the entire country in the back.

I may be no fan of "Sir" Kier's version of Labour, but the sooner that shower in No.10 at the moment are gone the better.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086588#Comment_122086588

Labour are being treated like the party in power without being in power. I'm not massively surprised it is causing problems. They have been the presumptive government for 2 years and are being asked about policy as if they have any control over it. It lends itself to some chaos.

ancapailldorcha

Anyway, we've local elections tomorrow. According to the electoral reform society:

In 2019, the last general election year, there were only 33 allegations of impersonation at the polling station, out of over 58 million votes cast.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/campaigns/voter-id/

I'm planning to try my passport card as the electoral commission specifically lists it as being valid.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086768#Comment_122086768

So are the Tories just copy & pasting Republican Party voter suppression efforts then?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086768#Comment_122086768

A Tory MP was scrambling around last night looking for an emergency proxy to vote for him as he has no valid ID.

Voter ID is an absolute joke in a country with proxies and postal votes. How do you check a postal voters ID.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-mp-voter-id-local-elections-b2538329.html

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089073#Comment_122089073

I'd prefer not to go for the simple answer but that's how it looks to me. Of course, Tories being Tories, they made a dog's dinner out of it. Jacob Rees-Mogg even said the quiet part out loud and admitted it's voter suppression:

Speaking at the National Conservatism conference in Westminster, Mr Rees-Mogg said: "Parties that try and gerrymander end up finding their clever scheme comes back to bite them, as dare I say we found by insisting on voter ID for elections.

"We found the people who didn't have ID were elderly and they by and large voted Conservative, so we made it hard for our own voters and we upset a system that worked perfectly well."

https://news.sky.com/story/jacob-rees-mogg-suggests-requiring-photo-id-to-vote-was-attempt-to-gerrymander-which-came-back-to-bite-tories-12881602

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089101#Comment_122089101

No idea what to say to this to be honest. Either the authorities have no idea what's happening or there is no problem.

I voted this morning. Got a weird look when I presented my Irish Passport Card though I was sweating heavily since I wasn't sure if I was going to be late for work.

Tom Mann Centuria

George Galloway confirming he's a massive homophobe in an interview. Doing a great job of wiping out any goodwill he may have had. Workers Party must be delighted they installed him as leader.

https://twitter.com/novaramedia/status/1785746008531742740?t=LNKiz3CN1_M1t4RZ9iuGkA&s=19

Bastani is a tool but it's a good interview, not that he had to try to dig the information from Galloway, he was only to pleased to spout on.

ancapailldorcha

I could only stomach a minute. My disgust for Galloway… I just can't.

I'm almost impressed that he's somehow worse than every Tory MP.

ancapailldorcha

I hate to just paste something here but I don't know what to say.

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1786099454304518309

ancapailldorcha

Looks like veterans can't even use their ID cards:

The veterans minister has apologised to former military personnel who have been prevented from using their veterans ID in order to vote in the local elections in England on Thursday.

Downing Street said it would “look into” changing the controversial new rules, which require photo ID in order to vote, to allow veterans’ ID cards on to the list of valid identification.

The minister, Johnny Mercer, was responding to a complaint from a veteran who said he had been turned away at a polling station. “I am sorry about this. The legislation on acceptable forms of ID came out before the veterans ID cards started coming out in January this year. I will do all I can to change it before the next one,” Mercer tweeted.

https://twitter.com/JonathanPieNews/status/1786029357477101625

Mercer himself is a veteran. Nobody should have known better. This attempt at importing the US culture war has shown how utterly venal and cretinous they are.

HalloweenJack

My sister had to bring her passport as she doesn't have any other photo ID. It seems mad that they insist on it when photo ID isn't standard.

Had to laugh at Johnson. Easily the.most recognisable politician but still has to play by the rules for once.

Seth Brundle

I'm curious to know whether Johnson actually went home, got suitable ID and thennrerurned to cast his vote. Or did he just take the lazy way out?

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091114#Comment_122091114

You couldn't get a more succinct example of rules for thee but not for me.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089073#Comment_122089073

Yes but badly. Really, really badly. The GOP is a lean, mean, lying machine who've gerrymandering down to a perverse art form. Rishi Sunak, aspiring techbro struggles with contactless payments and asks homeless people if they work in finance.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091426#Comment_122091426

I think you asked and answered your own question there. I think it's safe to say that this prophecy went unfulfilled:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091517#Comment_122091517

Ironically, this is one of the few times when the rules have applied to him.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091381#Comment_122091381

Well, there's not really much of an ID-carrying culture here. Recall the fuss during the New Labour years? I brought my Irish passport card and did it before going to work. I was expecting problems but had none.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091265#Comment_122091265

Lots of groups complained about the omissions to the ID list and were basically told to F off but now that it's the veterans conservative voters and media will be falling over themselves to condemn the oversight.

Sam Russell

The problem with the Labour ID proposal was it was horribly expensive and tried to be all things to every Gov dept. It suffered from project creep, except it was more like project gallop - and possibly less savory overtones.