General British politics discussion thread

L1011

There's another by-election to be held now as a Tory MP from a super safe seat has died. Unlikely to be held too quickly and obviously not expected to be a surprise

PommieBast

L1011 wrote: »

There's another by-election to be held now as a Tory MP from a super safe seat has died. Unlikely to be held too quickly and obviously not expected to be a surprise

Could get interesting as it is a straight Con-LibDem contest in a Remain-leaning area.

Shelga

https://www.thejournal.ie/johnny-mercer-government-criticism-5416703-Apr2021/

Seriously, what is wrong with the English psyche that this man feels no shame about publicly defending the right of a British Army soldier to murder unarmed children? Must be some seriously effective military recruitment campaigns, as they're all so utterly convinced about the "nobility" of being a soldier that they're able to completely ignore the devastation, misery and death that their army has wrought on any country it has interfered with in the last seven decades.

Johnny Mercer makes my skin crawl. He also must be seriously naive (I want to say dim but don't want a warning) to only realise now that the Tories are a bunch of self-serving, duplicitous liars! Slow hand clap for Johnny.

BonnieSituation

Shelga wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/johnny-mercer-government-criticism-5416703-Apr2021/

Seriously, what is wrong with the English psyche that this man feels no shame about publicly defending the right of a British Army soldier to murder unarmed children? Must be some seriously effective military recruitment campaigns, as they're all so utterly convinced about the "nobility" of being a soldier that they're able to completely ignore the devastation, misery and death that their army has wrought on any country it has interfered with in the last seven decades.

Johnny Mercer makes my skin crawl. He also must be seriously naive (I want to say dim but don't want a warning) to only realise now that the Tories are a bunch of self-serving, duplicitous liars! Slow hand clap for Johnny.

I love how they continue to not recognise that during a civil war on their territory that their soldiers killed their own citizens and they want to give them immunity for that.

Nationalists are constantly told to "get used to it" and that "it's the UK up there" well, given that's the case, perhaps the government in charge should start treating their citizens properly.

Really though, they treat the North as if it was Iraq and Afghanistan. For most in England it's as far away as they are. Ireland Schmireland.

breezy1985

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I love how they continue to not recognise that during a civil war on their territory that their soldiers killed their own citizens and they want to give them immunity for that.

Nationalists are constantly told to "get used to it" and that "it's the UK up there" well, given that's the case, perhaps the government in charge should start treating their citizens properly.

Really though, they treat the North as if it was Iraq and Afghanistan. For most in England it's as far away as they are. Ireland Schmireland.

Just going off my own experience way more ROI citizens understand that the north is the UK than British people do

Strazdas

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I love how they continue to not recognise that during a civil war on their territory that their soldiers killed their own citizens and they want to give them immunity for that.

Nationalists are constantly told to "get used to it" and that "it's the UK up there" well, given that's the case, perhaps the government in charge should start treating their citizens properly.

Really though, they treat the North as if it was Iraq and Afghanistan. For most in England it's as far away as they are. Ireland Schmireland.

I suspect the retreat into English nationalism since 2016 is a factor. Even Scotland barely gets a look in these days (viewed as a bunch of hostile and belligerent troublemakers).

dogbert27

Typical that they're focussing on who leaked the text messages instead of the content

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9501935/Boris-Johnson-accuses-Dominic-Cummings-Chatty-Rat-leaked-texts.html

I'd say Cummings has a lot of dirt built up on all the ministers so if I was Boris I would be careful on attacking him or this won't be the only "leak"

Strazdas

Strazdas wrote: »

I suspect the retreat into English nationalism since 2016 is a factor. Even Scotland barely gets a look in these days (viewed as a bunch of hostile and belligerent troublemakers).

It isn't so much a retreat into English nationalism, more a case of the English getting fed up with being the constant whipping boys for the nationalists in the so called Celtic Nations.

Strazdas

Aegir wrote: »

It isn't so much a retreat into English nationalism, more a case of the English getting fed up with being the constant whipping boys for the nationalists in the so called Celtic Nations.

But those Celtic nations would say they have a case.

The way the UK is set up leaves itself open to disharmony. Yes, Scotland, Wales and NI send MPs to Westminster but the Tory / Brexiteer government and its big majority means virtually all those MPs are on the opposition benches and with zero impact on the running of the union. Britain has a governing party of English Tory MPs basically.

Strazdas

Strazdas wrote: »

But those Celtic nations would say they have a case.

The way the UK is set up leaves itself open to disharmony. Yes, Scotland, Wales and NI send MPs to Westminster but the Tory / Brexiteer government and its big majority means virtually all those MPs are on the opposition benches and with zero impact on the running of the union. Britain has a governing party of English Tory MPs basically.

So there’s only democracy if whoever wins the most seats in Scotland is in power? Was everything ok when Blair was PM?

From an English perspective, it isn’t about who is in Westminster, it’s the constant digs. Comments like Andy Murray saying he was supporting whoever England were playing, or Ed Byrne bemoaning raising his kids in Essex means he is raising an Englishman.

It starts to wear very thin after a while.

Strazdas

Aegir wrote: »

So there’s only democracy if whoever wins the most seats in Scotland is in power? Was everything ok when Blair was PM?

From an English perspective, it isn’t about who is in Westminster, it’s the constant digs. Comments like Andy Murray saying he was supporting whoever England were playing, or Ed Byrne bemoaning raising his kids in Essex means he is raising an Englishman.

It starts to wear very thin after a while.

The problem is that it is a very England dominated union. That would be fine if England and the other three nations were getting on well with each other, but now Brexit has exposed the cracks and England is telling the other three that Brexit is far more of a priority than the interests of the three nations. I'm not convinced it's all one way traffic by the way : many English Brexiteers seem irritated by the presence of Scotland and NI in the union and view them as a nuisance.

That 2016 referendum was playing with fire. People don't seem to have been aware it risked breaking up the union within a short period of time.

breezy1985

Aegir wrote: »

So there’s only democracy if whoever wins the most seats in Scotland is in power? Was everything ok when Blair was PM?

From an English perspective, it isn’t about who is in Westminster, it’s the constant digs. Comments like Andy Murray saying he was supporting whoever England were playing, or Ed Byrne bemoaning raising his kids in Essex means he is raising an Englishman.

It starts to wear very thin after a while.

Aw god bless the poor English have it hard don't they.

Those comments go both ways and I have heard and had thrown at me some pretty xenophobic nonsense by English people in regards to the Irish and the Celtic nations of the UK. The English getting upset by a little kick back from nationalists the nations Westminster holds power over is the same as white people who vote for Trump due to some dreamed up perception of being the put upon downtrodden minority

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

Aw god bless the poor English have it hard don't they.

I never said that, I was just pointing out that the ongoing anti English sentiment from certain quarters has resulted in some fairly obvious kick backs.

breezy1985 wrote: »

Those comments go both ways and I have heard and had thrown at me some pretty xenophobic nonsense by English people in regards to the Irish and the Celtic nations of the UK. The English getting upset by a little kick back from nationalists the nations Westminster holds power over is the same as white people who vote for Trump due to some dreamed up perception of being the put upon downtrodden minority

So the English are the same as white supremacist Trump supporters and shouldn't complain about rampant xenophobia from the Celtic nations?

that's pretty much a perfect example of what I'm talking about to be honest.

breezy1985

Aegir wrote: »

I never said that, I was just pointing out that the ongoing anti English sentiment from certain quarters has resulted in some fairly obvious kick backs.

So the English are the same as white supremacist Trump supporters and shouldn't complain about rampant xenophobia from the Celtic nations?

that's pretty much a perfect example of what I'm talking about to be honest.

I didnt say the Trump supporters were supremacists and I did not compare all English people to Trump supporters.


If Andy Murray doesnt support England and English people dont want to support him or Scotland thats fine its sport.
That kind of slagging should not enter politics though and it has through Farage and now Johnson peddling English nationalism and its down to the fact that people like yourself thing the English are to use your words "the whipping boys" and not the ones who in fact are usually holding the whips

Leroy42

Aegir, do you accept that in the Union the English hold all the power? They they get to make all the decisions? That, even now, the decision on whether the Scottish people get to hold a vote on whether they would like their own independence is 100% down to the English PM? Voting in by a majority of English MP's from their party?

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

Aegir, do you accept that in the Union the English hold all the power? They they get to make all the decisions? That, even now, the decision on whether the Scottish people get to hold a vote on whether they would like their own independence is 100% down to the English PM? Voting in by a majority of English MP's from their party?

so it would be different if the PM was Scottish?

O'Neill

SNIP. No smileys please.

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

I didnt say the Trump supporters were supremacists and I did not compare all English people to Trump supporters.

sounded very much like it to me.

breezy1985 wrote: »

If Andy Murray doesnt support England and English people dont want to support him or Scotland thats fine its sport.

the curious thing about that, is that when he made his snide comment, it was generally treated with a smile. However when the press responded with "That's OK Andy, you're only British when you're winning, the rest of the time you're just another Scottish loser" it was repeated an nauseum as an example of anti Scottish sentiment and the myth that this is how he press treat Andy murray is still repeated today.

breezy1985 wrote: »

That kind of slagging should not enter politics though and it has through Farage and now Johnson peddling English nationalism and its down to the fact that people like yourself thing the English are to use your words "the whipping boys" and not the ones who in fact are usually holding the whips

Farage and Johnson don't peddle English nationalism, this is yet another example of the English being blamed.

IIRC, Farage led a flotilla of Scottish fishermen up the Thames as part of his campaign to leave the EU.

Leroy42

Aegir wrote: »

so it would be different if the PM was Scottish?

I knew that would be the only thing you you reply to.

Doesn't matter if they are Scottish, the power comes from the MPs that elect them to the position of power, and keep them there, which are majority English.

You didn't even try to deal with any of the other points.

Have you watched PMQ's, or indeed many other debates in the HoC? The Scottish are treated with barely concealed disdain.

Its likes Finan O'Toole said about Brexit. Without an actual enemy some enemy needs to be created so that people can join the fight.

Apparently, the English feel a bit put out because everybody doesn't simply bow to their amazing supperioty and endlessly thank them for everything.

Brexit shows the fallacy of your argument. The biggest decision in many years was taken without the consent of either NI or Scotland, and anytime Scotland tried to raise issues they were told to accept it. The English are by far the biggest part of the union, and by dint of that hold all the power.

ancapailldorcha

Aegir wrote: »

Farage and Johnson don't peddle English nationalism, this is yet another example of the English being blamed.

IIRC, Farage led a flotilla of Scottish fishermen up the Thames as part of his campaign to leave the EU.

Nobody's blaming the English. They're blaming people channeling English nationalism for their own ends and Johnson and Farage were doing this extensively back in 2016.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

I knew that would be the only thing you you reply to.

Doesn't matter if they are Scottish, the power comes from the MPs that elect them to the position of power, and keep them there, which are majority English.

so it is fine as long as the English vote the same way as the Scots?

You didn't even try to deal with any of the other points.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Have you watched PMQ's, or indeed many other debates in the HoC? The Scottish are treated with barely concealed disdain.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Its likes Finan O'Toole said about Brexit. Without an actual enemy some enemy needs to be created so that people can join the fight.

a bit like the Scots blaming all their problems on Westminster?

Kind of ironic that the arguments for Scottish independence, are similar to the arguments for Brexit.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Apparently, the English feel a bit put out because everybody doesn't simply bow to their amazing supperioty and endlessly thank them for everything.

No one said anything of the sort, it is however another superb example of anti English sentiment (or is it Irish inferiority complex?)

Leroy42 wrote: »

Brexit shows the fallacy of your argument. The biggest decision in many years was taken without the consent of either NI or Scotland, and anytime Scotland tried to raise issues they were told to accept it. The English are by far the biggest part of the union, and by dint of that hold all the power.

what fallacy of my argument? The Scots voted to stay in the union, the union as a whole voted to leave.

If no one in Scotland voted to leave, the UK would not have left the EU. would that have been fair?

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nobody's blaming the English. They're blaming people channeling English nationalism for their own ends and Johnson and Farage were doing this extensively back in 2016.

So Farage sailed up the Thames with a flotilla of Scottish fishermen to channel English nationalism?

They channeled British nationalism, but I guess it is much easier to blame the English.

ancapailldorcha

Aegir wrote: »

So Farage sailed up the Thames with a flotilla of Scottish fishermen to channel English nationalism?

They channeled British nationalism, but I guess it is much easier to blame the English.

Where did I blame the English? Quote please.

The fishermen being Scottish means nothing in this context. Brexit is being done because English nationalists wanted it done and are prepared to scupper the union if necessary. A union of four where one member gets to decide international policy isn't a union.

And yes, I am aware that Brexit carried in Wales but if they'd voted against it it wouldn't have made one whit of a difference.

breezy1985

Aegir wrote: »

sounded very much like it to me.



the curious thing about that, is that when he made his snide comment, it was generally treated with a smile. However when the press responded with "That's OK Andy, you're only British when you're winning, the rest of the time you're just another Scottish loser" it was repeated an nauseum as an example of anti Scottish sentiment and the myth that this is how he press treat Andy murray is still repeated today.



Farage and Johnson don't peddle English nationalism, this is yet another example of the English being blamed.

IIRC, Farage led a flotilla of Scottish fishermen up the Thames as part of his campaign to leave the EU.

It's sounds like it to you because you are desperate to see offence in everything to push your agenda.

As for the ad nauseam media coverage of the anti Murray comments I honestly don't remember ever seeing it. I've been over there since 2012 and I don't remember a single bit of controversy about Murray. Plenty of it when Saoirse Ronan or Andrew Scott are called British but nothing on the Murray thing
I'm sure you will pull up an article to try prove yourself but that ain't ad nauseam.
As for Scottish fishermen I am fully aware that some Scots support brexit and are allowed into the Farage club as long as they serve the purpose just like Irelands Kate Hoey who also sailed down the Thames for brexit.

J Mysterio

Aegir wrote: »

It is however another superb example of anti English sentiment (or is it Irish inferiority complex?

There's no anti English sentiment other than what has been rightfully accrued; and those sentiments should be thoroughly examined so the appropriate adjustments can be made.

Anyway, as I have said before, Irish - English relations were at a high point prior to Brexit.

The Irish do not have an inferiority complex to the English, that notion is risible.

At any rate, seems it's actually you who have have a complex: a persecution complex. You are deeply bitter about any negative commentary on the UK or criticisms of the UK government/ Brexiteers/ English Nationalists. You cannot seem to accept that actually, these groups are due a lot of criticism, owing to their abominable behaviour.

Just in the UK government (the Tories) the breadth and depth of scandals and screws up by since 2016 is staggering, yet they have simply gotten away with it. They have not been held to account. These people live in another universe from what were the accepted norms of behaviour and practice in the not so distant past. Honestly I have no idea how they get away with it/ are allowed to get away with it. Media collusion is one thing.

Almost the entire cabinet, at one time or another over the last few years, has been involved in something which would have previously resulted in a resignation or dismissal. Including the PM, times two or three. This is at a time when they are utterly wrecking the foundations of the UK and its place in the world. I can only surmise that Brexit has allowed for this rotten carry on. By fermenting this idea of an existential threat and an 'us against them' mentality, 'their guys' are given a pass while the anger is carefully focused outward. No consequences.

This list is not even comprehensive:

If Conservatives care about the ministerial code, at least 11 cabinet members should resign

Sam Russell

breezy1985 wrote: »

It's sounds like it to you because you are desperate to see offence in everything to push your agenda.

As for the ad nauseam media coverage of the anti Murray comments I honestly don't remember ever seeing it. I've been over there since 2012 and I don't remember a single bit of controversy about Murray. Plenty of it when Saoirse Ronan or Andrew Scott are called British but nothing on the Murray thing
I'm sure you will pull up an article to try prove yourself but that ain't ad nauseam.
As for Scottish fishermen I am fully aware that some Scots support brexit and are allowed into the Farage club as long as they serve the purpose just like Irelands Kate Hoey who also sailed down the Thames for brexit.

This anti-Murray stuff all started when he was praised at Wimbledon as a new English tennis star (replacing Tim Henman) and he had the temerity to point out that he was not English but Scottish. This did not go down well with the tennis crowd who are predominantly English.

There have been Scottish PMs - Gordon Brown and Tony Blair were both Scottish as was Alec Douglas-Home. Under Brown and Blair they had the support of the majority of Scottish MPs.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

This anti-Murray stuff all started when he was praised at Wimbledon as a new English tennis star (replacing Tim Henman) and he had the temerity to point out that he was not English but Scottish. This did not go down well with the tennis crowd who are predominantly English.

What a load of rubbish.

When has Andy Murray ever been called English?

Sam Russell

Aegir wrote: »

What a load of rubbish.

When has Andy Murray ever been called English?

I actually watched the clip of the crowd at Wimbledon attacking him for not being English - well his rejection of being English. He was quite put out about it.

breezy1985

Sam Russell wrote: »

This anti-Murray stuff all started when he was praised at Wimbledon as a new English tennis star (replacing Tim Henman) and he had the temerity to point out that he was not English but Scottish. This did not go down well with the tennis crowd who are predominantly English.

There have been Scottish PMs - Gordon Brown and Tony Blair were both Scottish as was Alec Douglas-Home. Under Brown and Blair they had the support of the majority of Scottish MPs.

I do remember that Murray controversy alright but not the one Aiger described

As for Scottish MPs I am well aware but I don't know what that has to do with peddling of English nationalism post 2016

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

It's sounds like it to you because you are desperate to see offence in everything to push your agenda.

As for Scottish fishermen I am fully aware that some Scots support brexit and are allowed into the Farage club as long as they serve the purpose just like Irelands Kate Hoey who also sailed down the Thames for brexit.

and again, ****ing unbelievable.

It's not their fault, they are just pawns for the nasty English:rolleyes:

J Mysterio wrote: »

There's no anti English sentiment other than what has been rightfully accrued; and those sentiments should be thoroughly examined so the appropriate adjustments can be made.

err, yes there is.

Anyway, as I have said before, Irish - English relations were at a high point prior to Brexit.

J Mysterio wrote: »

The Irish do not have an inferiority complex to the English, that notion is risible.

it certainly comes across that way from some people. From others it is a superiority complex.

J Mysterio wrote: »

At any rate, seems it's actually you who have have a complex: a persecution complex. You are deeply bitter about any negative commentary on the UK or criticisms of the UK government/ Brexiteers/ English Nationalists. You cannot seem to accept that actually, these groups are due a lot of criticism, owing to their abominable behaviour.

Just in the UK government (the Tories) the breadth and depth of scandals and screws up by since 2016 is staggering, yet they have simply gotten away with it. They have not been held to account. These people live in another universe from what were the accepted norms of behaviour and practice in the not so distant past. Honestly I have no idea how they get away with it/ are allowed to get away with it. Media collusion is one thing.

Almost the entire cabinet, at one time or another over the last few years, has been involved in something which would have previously resulted in a resignation or dismissal. Including the PM, times two or three. This is at a time when they are utterly wrecking the foundations of the UK and its place in the world. I can only surmise that Brexit has allowed for this rotten carry on. By fermenting this idea of an existential threat and an 'us against them' mentality, 'their guys' are given a pass while the anger is carefully focused outward. No consequences.

This list is not even comprehensive:

If Conservatives care about the ministerial code, at least 11 cabinet members should resign

ad hominem.

This is a discussion forum, it's where discussion takes place.