Congress 2020

threeball

Gael85 wrote: »

If teams pushed up on kickouts rather putting 15 bodies the ball would see more midfield battles. This new rule won't change as teams will still go short on restarts.

Doesn't work as you can only push your outfield men up and that always leaves their goalkeeper as the safety in case a defender comes under pressure. Not anymore thankfully.

threeball

Big Ears wrote: »

Best ?, it was certainly more competitive with a lot more teams in with the chance of winning. But the rule set likely had little to do with that.

The best matches I've seen in my lifetime (born at the end of the 1980's) have probably been the ones involving Dublin, Kerry, Mayo etc in the last 5-6 years.
Fantastic stuff, played at an amazing tempo and standard with no lack of kick passing involved.
However the lead up to those games was usually extremely uncompetitive provincial Championships.

Changing the rules to force teams to kick long will not fix that. There's plenty of dinosaurs out who think the game has been ruined by too much hand passing and not humping the ball up the field for 50/50 contests, but the truth is whenever teams have been well matched in the current era we've usually come away with great games of football.

Offaly and Meath for example played out a pulsating well matched game in Navan last year, nothing wrong with it.
Meath were then hammered by Dublin in the Leinster final.....the solution ?, let's limit short passing and get teams to go long.

There was huge support to introduce a new kickout rule a few years ago where the ball would have to go past the 45. Obviously in conditions of strong wind that just isn't feasible, so instead we're left with other rules to try and force teams to go long.

An older generation who nostalgically long for the way the game used to be played', are trying to force a return to that era via rule changes.
The only effect this will have is to reduce how watchable the game is, meanwhile the real issue of funding and development officers for weaker counties remains unaddressed.

I suppose you think the backpass rule in soccer made no difference either. Regularly you had defenders tipping the ball back to the goalie who would pick it up and waste 15secs before either repeating or humping it down the field. Their rule largely got rid of that nonsense and hopefully this gets rid of our version of that nonsense. Its a blight on the sport when a team is not rewarded for pushing up and pressurising because the goalie gives defenders a soft option to get out of bother.

Gael85

threeball wrote: »

Doesn't work as you can only push your outfield men up and that always leaves their goalkeeper as the safety in case a defender comes under pressure. Not anymore thankfully.

When teams fully press restarts there is little opportunity for defenders to receive a short kick out let alone pass back to the keeper. At the moment too many teams withdraw their full forward line out deep on opposition restarts.

threeball

Gael85 wrote: »

When teams fully press restarts there is little opportunity for defenders to receive a short kick out let alone pass back to the keeper. At the moment too many teams withdraw their full forward line out deep on opposition restarts.

And yet they still manage it.

Big Ears

threeball wrote: »

I suppose you think the backpass rule in soccer made no difference either. Regularly you had defenders tipping the ball back to the goalie who would pick it up and waste 15secs before either repeating or humping it down the field. Their rule largely got rid of that nonsense and hopefully this gets rid of our version of that nonsense. Its a blight on the sport when a team is not rewarded for pushing up and pressurising because the goalie gives defenders a soft option to get out of bother.

That is not a like for like comparison, if anything it's the opposite !

The backpass allowed the ball to be lumped long for a 50/50 aerial contest, and the removal of this eliminated a lot of that and got teams to play out from the back.
This GAA rule is to try and prevent teams playing out and instead lump the ball long !

We've seen plenty of keeper meltdowns in recent years from teams pushing up on them, even from high quality keepers. The team with possession still have to find a man for him to give it back to the keeper, so by pushing up you can turn the ball over before the keeper has a chance to get it back.
You won't see anymore pushing up now, because teams simply won't be going short as often. We'll see a lot less quick restarts, and the game will be slowed down as keepers take their time to kick the ball high and long.

threeball

Big Ears wrote: »

That is not a like for like comparison, if anything it's the opposite !

The backpass allowed the ball to be lumped long for a 50/50 aerial contest, and the removal of this eliminated a lot of that and got teams to play out from the back.
This GAA rule is to try and prevent teams playing out and instead lump the ball long !

We've seen plenty of keeper meltdowns in recent years from teams pushing up on them, even from high quality keepers. The team with possession still have to find a man for him to give it back to the keeper, so by pushing up you can turn the ball over before the keeper has a chance to get it back.
You won't see anymore pushing up now, because teams simply won't be going short as often. We'll see a lot less quick restarts, and the game will be slowed down as keepers take their time to kick the ball high and long.

Just because the ball is kicked out doesn't mean theres anything actually happening. Most of the time its passed around within the 45 for up to a minute before the opposition has a chance to engage. Ball in play but no actual action. The ball will still go short, just not to the back 3 and the receiver will have to move it on quickly as he can't play it back. Teams will push up even more as the safety valve is gone.

Gael85

threeball wrote: »

And yet they still manage it.

Teams will employ more decoy runners. Goalie kicks to corner back, full back comes off the shoulder and play back to keeper.

threeball

Gael85 wrote: »

Teams will employ more decoy runners. Goalie kicks to corner back, full back comes off the shoulder and play back to keeper.

If they're willing to take that risk then thats up to themselves but the chances of getting turned over are high if the press is implemented correctly. Having only the kickout receiver ineligible to back pass is a weakness however. It should have been a stronger rule than just limiting it to one player.

threeball

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/gaa/gaa-congress-live-updates-63-21600158

42 seems to be giving bother (they haven’t done 38-41 yet).

https://www.gaa.ie/live-updates/congress2020/

Big Ears

threeball wrote: »

Just because the ball is kicked out doesn't mean theres anything actually happening. Most of the time its passed around within the 45 for up to a minute before the opposition has a chance to engage. Ball in play but no actual action. The ball will still go short, just not to the back 3 and the receiver will have to move it on quickly as he can't play it back. Teams will push up even more as the safety valve is gone.

Most of the time it's moved up the field, particularly if taken quick.
Sometimes if the opposition has withdrawn players into their half, the ball is moved laterally for a frustrating period of time before being advanced. That rarely happens when an opposition is pressing them as it's too dangerous, free men are looked for and the ball is advanced as quick as possible.

If it's not going to the back 3, but still going short, the receiver will likely look for a player from the back 3 to as they'll be offering support and facing the play. In which case what was the point of stopping the keeper from being the one to offer support and advancing the play ?

59 is up now, the restructuring of the levels of the hurling championship (no relegation from Leinster being the only part most will pay any attention to).

This motion proposes to change the promotion and relegation structure between the various tiers of the All-Ireland hurling championship thereby 'balancing' the number of counties playing in each tier. If the motion is passed, the following would come to pass

Liam MacCarthy Cup: In 2020 there would be no relegation from the Leinster Championship while the Joe McDonagh champions would be promoted to the Leinster Championship for 2021 thereby bringing the number of competing teams in the Leinster Championship to six. The exception would be if Kerry won the Joe McDonagh Cup this year. Then they would play off against the whatever team finished bottom in the 2020 Munster Championship to decide which team would compete in the Munster Championship in 2021 and which team would play in the Joe McDonagh Cup. In that scenario the bottom team in the Leinster Championship would not be relegated. If a team other than Kerry wins the Joe McDonagh Cup this year, then the Leinster Championship will go from a five-team to a six-team competition.

Joe McDonagh Cup: There are currently five teams in the Joe McDonagh Cup. The Joe McDonagh Cup winners would be promoted and no team would be relegated from the Joe McDonagh Cup in 2020 while two teams would be promoted up to the Joe McDonagh Cup from the Christy Ring, thus ensuring the Joe McDonagh Cup would have six teams in 2021.

Christy Ring Cup: There are currently eight teams competing in the Christy Ring Cup. The Christy Ring Cup finalists would be promoted up to the Joe McDonagh Cup for 2021 while the Nickey Rackard Cup winners would be promoted up to the Christy Ring Cup for 2021. The bottom team in the Christy Ring Cup would be relegate to the Nickey Rackard Cup. This would reduce the number of counties competing in the Christy Ring Cup from eight to six in 2021.

Nickey Rackard: There are currently eight teams in the Nickey Rackard Cup. One team will be promoted to the Christy Ring Cup while one team will drop down from the Christy Ring Cup to the Nickey Rackard Cup. The two bottom teams would be relegated to the Lory Meagher Cup. The third bottom team would play the Lory Meagher Cup winner in a play-off with the winner competing in the Nickey Rackard Cup in 2021. This would reduce the number of teams playing in the Nickey Rackard Cup in 2021 from eight to six.

Lory Meagher Cup: There are currently four teams in the Lory Meagher Cup. Two teams will definitely be relegated from the Nickey Rackard Cup with the possibility of a third (in which case one team would be promoted from the Lory Meagher Cup to the Nickey Rackard Cup). This would increase the number of counties competing for the Lory Meagher Cup in 2021 from four to six.

Carlow, Laois, and Westmeath predictably in favour. They’ll want it at 7 when it comes to one of them being relegated in a couple of years and we’ll just end up with no McDonagh and a watered down Leinster.

Passed with 95%.

An Ciarraioch

Passed by 95% - made absolute sense, as up to now, there was a yo-yo of teams between Leinster and the Joe McDonagh, and also the fixtures in the latter competition will benefit from having an even number of teams again.

An Ciarraioch

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Passed by 95% - made absolute sense, as up to now, there was a yo-yo of teams between Leinster and the Joe McDonagh, and also the fixtures in the latter competition will benefit from having an even number of teams again.

Yeah but what happens when Carlow or Laois cry about being relegated when it’s already 6?

An Ciarraioch

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Yeah but what happens when Carlow or Laois cry about being relegated when it’s already 6?

Offaly had to suck it up already, and given Carlow and Laois are hardly much better than Westmeath or Antrim, they can hardly complain. Pity Kerry hurlers don't get the option to play in Leinster if they ever win the Joe McDonagh - the chances of them ever being able to beat the bottom team in Munster are virtually zero.

It’s a real pity that wasn’t up for consideration today too. Kerry have nowhere to go.

puzl

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

It’s a real pity that wasn’t up for consideration today too. Kerry have nowhere to go.

Kerry were welcome to join Munster for many years and rarely elected to do so - the door was always open. It only seems to bother people now that the door is closed.

I'd be happy to see Kerry join Munster for LMC. 6 teams in each provincial will sort out the nonsense of the rest week imbalance.

An Ciarraioch

puzl wrote: »

Kerry were welcome to join Munster for many years and rarely elected to do so - the door was always open. It only seems to bother people now that the door is closed.

I'd be happy to see Kerry join Munster for LMC. 6 teams in each provincial will sort out the nonsense of the rest week imbalance.

They did for most of the Nineties and 2000s - whether 20 and 30 point hamnerings once a season were doing much to promote the game in the county is another matter. That said, they were more competitive in the League back then, even defeating Clare once in their first game after winning an All-Ireland.

PTH2009

So Leinster teams are getting extra games in the Liam McCarthy cup from next year and Munster teams stay with only 4 guaranteed games

Realt Dearg Sec

PTH2009 wrote: »

So Leinster teams are getting extra games in the Liam McCarthy cup from next year and Munster teams stay with only 4 guaranteed games

I wholeheartedly agree with you about the need for an open draw

PTH2009

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I wholeheartedly agree with you about the need for an open draw

Even if kerry win the Mcdonagh this year they should go straight up and be the 6th team in Munster with the runner up been the 6th team in Leinster

castletownman

Its easier to introduce another cannon fodder to the Leinster championship than to tackle the real issue of cynical fouling in the game. Anyone who doesn't think that needs to be addressed are probably the same people that disagreed with the mandatory use of helmets.

castletownman

castletownman wrote: »

Its easier to introduce another cannon fodder to the Leinster championship than to tackle the real issue of cynical fouling in the game. Anyone who doesn't think that needs to be addressed are probably the same people that disagreed with the mandatory use of helmets.

Cynical fouling needs to be addressed but a black card would have been an idiotic way to address it.

castletownman

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Cynical fouling needs to be addressed but a black card would have been an idiotic way to address it.

Well an automatic ten minute sin-bin would be better. But just think of a high profile player who in the current climate is happy to hack down a lad knowing it is a yellow at worst. If that meant a Padraig Maher, Liam Ryan or Richie Hogan missed the rest of the game, it could have a monumental difference

castletownman

castletownman wrote: »

Well an automatic ten minute sin-bin would be better. But just think of a high profile player who in the current climate is happy to hack down a lad knowing it is a yellow at worst. If that meant a Padraig Maher, Liam Ryan or Richie Hogan missed the rest of the game, it could have a monumental difference

A monumental difference is the problem when it could be a huge mistake from a referee. Have you not seen how much of a joke black cards are in football? They’re not even giving them by the rules in a lot of games.

10 minutes is too much anyway, could mean 7 or 8 points being down a man in hurling. They at least need to come up with a punishment befitting the crime rather than over punishing.

threeball

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Cynical fouling needs to be addressed but a black card would have been an idiotic way to address it.

So how do you address it if not a penalty within the game. It's alright saying it needs to be addressed but what do you do in circumstances where a yellow isn't punishment but a red is too harsh.

castletownman

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

A monumental difference is the problem when it could be a huge mistake from a referee. Have you not seen how much of a joke black cards are in football? They’re not even giving them by the rules in a lot of games.

10 minutes is too much anyway, could mean 7 or 8 points being down a man in hurling. They at least need to come up with a punishment befitting the crime rather than over punishing.

Yeah but that comes with the territory. The chance that the odd decision is wrong doesn't negate the fact that most of them are correct. You see a lot of the anti-black card brigade mention is based on referees making a mistake as if its some parallel universe where the ref is never criticised for making a mistake in the current climate

The Lost Sheep

castletownman wrote: »

Its easier to introduce another cannon fodder to the Leinster championship than to tackle the real issue of cynical fouling in the game. Anyone who doesn't think that needs to be addressed are probably the same people that disagreed with the mandatory use of helmets.

how do you tackle this issue?

castletownman wrote: »

Well an automatic ten minute sin-bin would be better. But just think of a high profile player who in the current climate is happy to hack down a lad knowing it is a yellow at worst. If that meant a Padraig Maher, Liam Ryan or Richie Hogan missed the rest of the game, it could have a monumental difference

a sin bin is better for teams. Players who commit the foul can come back on as black card is too harsh for individual players who are not commiting red card offences. And team is penalised more by being down a man for 10 minutes than a black card where they remain at 15

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

A monumental difference is the problem when it could be a huge mistake from a referee. Have you not seen how much of a joke black cards are in football? They’re not even giving them by the rules in a lot of games.

10 minutes is too much anyway, could mean 7 or 8 points being down a man in hurling. They at least need to come up with a punishment befitting the crime rather than over punishing.

if you go on about referees then theres no point discussing this with you. Yes refs make mistakes but players make far more than refs in any game. Black cards aren't used properly but then again a lot of rules aren't managed properly in Gaelic or hurling for that matter as refs aren't respected enough, trained enough.or helped enough