What current FG policies are right wing?

Long_Wave

The reason you've never really seen what FG is really like is because they've never had an overhaul majority. Brendan Howlin revealed that Leo Varadkar wanted him to cut social welfare by 40% in 2011.Thats right, arsehole varadkar wanted working age people on social welfare to live on €115.00 per week and oaps to live on €145 per week

osarusan

Englo wrote: »

Can't wait to hear the methodology!

He hints at his 'methodology' here.

Well because IFP are more set on the leaving the EU, I moved them below Renua (EU is a centralized power and centralizing power is authoritarian).

He moves them where he thinks they should be.


And if you can't trust a guy called Professor Micky Vaughn, whose profile pic says he wants to be Pinochet killing 'communist swine', as a fair and honest person to evaluate political positions, sure who can you trust.


There's a thankfully small number of utter clowns on twitter, who have imported a whole mentality that never really existed in Ireland, tweeting and retweeting each other's moronic ramblings.


Just a pity this kind of garbage is increasingly regular on boards.

christy c

smurgen wrote: »

Any links this morning?

No, have a little thing called work to do. Are you denying some companies pay an effective rate over 12.5%? Did you miss that question?

Boggles

When did people come so obsessed with identity politics?

It's tiresome to listen to.

Whatever FG or FF are.

Their failed policy of "sure the market will sort it out"

Is not working. Irish people have been beyond patient.

Time to change that policy or the electorate will change them.

suicide_circus

Tony EH wrote: »

They're a neo liberal conservative party beholden to the free market, which largely benefits the rich. That they're not right wing enough for you lot, it doesn't make them left wing.

i'm dying to hear how FG are conservative

Eric Cartman

Long_Wave wrote: »

The reason you've never really seen what FG is really like is because they've never had an overhaul majority. Brendan Howlin revealed that Leo Varadkar wanted him to cut social welfare by 40% in 2011.Thats right, arsehole varadkar wanted working age people on social welfare to live on €115.00 per week and oaps to live on €145 per week

Thats a move i could get behind, why didnt it get done , why did leo raise welfare instead, also source ?

mariaalice

Cranky obsessions with welfare and the like does do not make a policy its just pandering.

Say what you like about the daft left at least it's policies are somewhat based on marxism. I think most of it is nonsense but that is not the point.

So what evidence-based policys could a right-wing party in Ireland have

Remember it can't just be based on feeling abut welfare or immigrants or whatever.

Geuze

smurgen wrote: »

Some companies?lol maybe small companies than can't afford tax efficient structures. I can back up what I'm saying with links. Tell me what types of companies pay over the 12.5%? Can you link me to examples and can you tell me what proportion their revenue is to that of the wider economy?
This is amusing.

Not all profits are taxed at 12.5%.

Some types of profits are taxed at higher rates, yes.

So it is possible for a company to end up paying more than 12.5% CT.

https://revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/corporation-tax-for-companies/corporation-tax/basis-of-charge.aspx

There are two rates of Corporation Tax (CT):

12.5% for trading income

25% for income from an excepted trade (as defined in part 2 of the Taxes Consolidation Act)

25% for non trading income, for example rental and investment income.
CT is charged on the profits in a company’s accounting period. This period cannot be longer than 12 months. If the tax rate changes in the accounting period, profits will be apportioned on a time basis and taxed accordingly.

Xertz

Again though, the allegation is that Varadkar suggested this, knowing grass roots FF and FG people, I would suggest that they would have not tolerated such a welfare cut as they would have lost their seats over it and they know where their votes come from.

There isn’t really a hardline Tory vote in Ireland. People do have a sense of social solidarity and that’s why you’ve seen a vote that expresses annoyance with the issues in health and housing.

Also look at the polling on issues at the election - things like taxation and crime were way down the list and immigration barely even featured all the public anger is about housing and health and related public services.

The big parties know this and frankly, if Varadkar was proposing those kinds of cuts, it would suggest that he’s not at all in touch with his grass roots or the mood of the electorate.

If FG are drifting towards being more right wing on socioeconomic issues, they got the answer they deserved as that’s not where the electorate is.

smurgen

Geuze wrote: »

Not all profits are taxed at 12.5%.

Some types of profits are taxed at higher rates, yes.

So it is possible for a company to end up paying more than 12.5% CT.

https://revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/corporation-tax-for-companies/corporation-tax/basis-of-charge.aspx

There are two rates of Corporation Tax (CT):

12.5% for trading income

25% for income from an excepted trade (as defined in part 2 of the Taxes Consolidation Act)

25% for non trading income, for example rental and investment income.
CT is charged on the profits in a company’s accounting period. This period cannot be longer than 12 months. If the tax rate changes in the accounting period, profits will be apportioned on a time basis and taxed accordingly.

Can you list what multinationals pay the 12.5%? I'm on about the big significant companies.

smurgen

Geuze wrote: »

Not all profits are taxed at 12.5%.

Some types of profits are taxed at higher rates, yes.

So it is possible for a company to end up paying more than 12.5% CT.

https://revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/corporation-tax-for-companies/corporation-tax/basis-of-charge.aspx

There are two rates of Corporation Tax (CT):

12.5% for trading income

25% for income from an excepted trade (as defined in part 2 of the Taxes Consolidation Act)

25% for non trading income, for example rental and investment income.
CT is charged on the profits in a company’s accounting period. This period cannot be longer than 12 months. If the tax rate changes in the accounting period, profits will be apportioned on a time basis and taxed accordingly.

All of that is on paper by the way income paid back to parent companies is tax exempt.i work in this industry and have been involved in setting up ICAV's and section 110's.oh and Google old Irish gaap accounts if you've the time. Any account department in any significant company in Ireland would be liquidated tomorrow if they ended up paying anything near the 12.5% effective interest rate.

Eric Cartman

smurgen wrote: »

All of that is on paper by the way income paid back to parent companies is tax exempt.i work in this industry and have been involved in setting up ICAV's and section 110's.oh and Google old Irish gaap accounts if you've the time. Any account department in any significant company in Ireland would be liquidated tomorrow if they ended up paying anything near the 12.5% effective interest rate.

Interest rate.... ?

Our tax laws already charge individuals and SME’s too much , we need to cut spending and reduce the tax burden on the lower end without increasing it on the higher end scaring them off

all about the mane

TallyRand wrote: »

Seriously? I can’t think of one but perusing these boards it seems FG are a right wing or at least centre-right.

Our poorest, the Social welfare cohort do very well generally, one of the most looked after in the world I would argue.

Definitely need to improve the situation where young people that work hard can’t get in a position to afford a home and the health care (bloated with pen pushers) is its usual sorry state, leaving that aside I still cant unearth a policy that would be considered right wing. Help?

Oh God, this isn't going to suit the 'left's' agenda at all!

Idbatterim

Long_Wave wrote: »

The reason you've never really seen what FG is really like is because they've never had an overhaul majority. Brendan Howlin revealed that Leo Varadkar wanted him to cut social welfare by 40% in 2011.Thats right, arsehole varadkar wanted working age people on social welfare to live on €115.00 per week and oaps to live on €145 per week

Those rates sound pretty reasonable to me ! Varadkar turning full leftie has been a large part of why Fg have lost power. Listen if welfare rates were minuscule or when appropriate, I wouldn’t have an issue with them. They are insane though , based on an outrageous boom and vote buying. The rates have barely changed. The cost is astronomical. And it’s a poor investment of scarce resources. We need infrastructure, debt repayment, to fund the black hole of health , more housing for working people. We do not need more money fcuked away on welfare and going to the pubs and bookies !

Boggles

Idbatterim wrote: »

Those rates sound pretty reasonable to me ! Varadkar turning full lector has been a large part of why Fg have lost power. Listen if welfare rates were minuscule or when appropriate, I wouldn’t have an issue with them. They are insane though , based on an outrageous boom and vote buying. The rates have barely changed. The cost is astronomical. And it’s a poor investment of scarce resources. We need infrastructure, debt repayment, to fund the black hole of health , more housing for working people. We do not need more money fcuked away on welfare and going to the pubs and bookies !

State among highest spenders on health per person in OECD

Ireland spends €4,706 per head of population on healthcare, one-third more than the average across 35 member countries of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD

How Ireland's spending on welfare compares to the rest of Europe

If you move away from GDP and consider state spending in real money terms, the picture remains largely unchanged. Overall, Irish state spending on social protection when calculated per head of population comes in as just under €8.500 per year as of 2016. We don’t spend the least: that would be Serbia with €982 per head, followed by Bulgaria with €1,104. Neither are we anywhere near the top: that would be Norway (€18,650), closely followed by Luxemburg (€18, 361) and Switzerland (€16,404).

Though these figures paint a picture, there is undoubtedly a common-sense perception that Ireland, as a "welfare state", is overly generous. This myth is then populated with a plethora of "folk devils" such as the "welfare tourist", who has made his or her way here to avail of the generous welfare system, the "scrounger", who has 25 kids he never sees, lives in a palace and has never worked a day in his life; the "welfare mother" who has "churned out" a gaggle of children in order to live off the income the state provides and so on.

The problem with myths is that they usually have little basis in reality and often draw on extreme examples to justify a particular position. Less diplomatically, they are usually about 95% bull****, 5% tenuous fact. Nevertheless, they are powerful, often becoming framing devices through which particular social stereotypes are mediated. Ireland is no different in this respect.

It would great if certain cohorts could base their opinion on actual facts instead of this constant desire to be internet edgelords.

It's just plain boring at this stage.

We get it, yer e-hard. :rolleyes:

blanch152

Boggles wrote: »

State among highest spenders on health per person in OECD



How Ireland's spending on welfare compares to the rest of Europe



It would great if certain cohorts could base their opinion on actual facts instead of this constant desire to be internet edgelords.

It's just plain boring at this stage.

We get it, yer e-hard. :rolleyes:

The difference in spending on social welfare between Ireland and the rest of the EU is almost wholly explained by the age profile of the population and the relatively low numbers of older people. Once you exclude pension support, then you find that Ireland's expenditure on the people you mention - the welfare tourist, the scrounger and the welfare mother - are much more generous than most of Europe.

Idbatterim

Boggles wrote: »

State among highest spenders on health per person in OECD



How Ireland's spending on welfare compares to the rest of Europe

Hang on a minute on welfare ! Does any other state offer unlimited free travel? Free tv license ?

It would great if certain cohorts could base their opinion on actual facts instead of this constant desire to be internet edgelords.

It's just plain boring at this stage.

We get it, yer e-hard. :rolleyes:

What’s your point ? It is a black hole, politician so won’t do anything about it. So that leaves the only option as keep on throwing billions more into it every ear, as we have been doing.

Do other countries offer unlimited free travel for welfare recipients? Virtually free housing for many ? Free tv license for OAPs? Virtually free medicine?

blanch152

Long_Wave wrote: »

The reason you've never really seen what FG is really like is because they've never had an overhaul majority. Brendan Howlin revealed that Leo Varadkar wanted him to cut social welfare by 40% in 2011.Thats right, arsehole varadkar wanted working age people on social welfare to live on €115.00 per week and oaps to live on €145 per week

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/jobseekers-allowance



At least it is better than Northern Ireland where Sinn Fein expect the job-seeker to get by on €86 (£73.10).

Boggles

blanch152 wrote: »

The difference in spending on social welfare between Ireland and the rest of the EU is almost wholly explained by the age profile of the population and the relatively low numbers of older people. Once you exclude pension support, then you find that Ireland's expenditure on the people you mention - the welfare tourist, the scrounger and the welfare mother - are much more generous than most of Europe.

We are lowest in the EU 28 on pension spend, that's what reflects our younger population.

As a whole we are middle of the road in terms of social protection in terms of cash spend with or without pensions.

Boggles

Idbatterim wrote: »

Do other countries offer unlimited free travel for welfare recipients? Virtually free housing for many ? Free tv license for OAPs? Virtually free medicine?

Yes, on top of having things like your heating paid for, various other cash allowances, etc.

Idbatterim

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/jobseekers-allowance



At least it is better than Northern Ireland where Sinn Fein expect the job-seeker to get by on €86 (£73.10).

And are they dying in the streets up there on that amount? Because I haven’t seen anything in the news about it

piplip87

There is no real left and right in Ireland apart from the PBP/Gemroids on either end.

Some parties do dabble both sides. As mentioned above FF and developers yet FF have introduced some very generous welfare bills in he past, responsible for mass building of social housing the 70s.

As for mentioned about low corporate tax rates, where does the money received from these rates, the tax on employees from these companies go ? Generally into our heavily subsidised health service ?

The same can be said for cosying up to developers, the houses built will go to landlords who will then lease the houses to hap Tennant's again heavily subsidised by the taxpayer. They may want to give developers tax breaks but by doing this they will increase supply which will free up rental properties and bring prices down.

FF can be seen as socially conservative buy that is in line with the majority of delegates at their Ard Feis.

Again SF would be seen as a left wing alternative yet they want to slash taxes, get rid of the only wealth tax we have, and keep corporation tax at the same low level it is currently.

FG seen as rightwing yet they have legalised Gay Marriage, brought in abortion and raised welfare during their time in office.

Almost all Irish parties dabble both sides of the lone.

Tony EH

suicide_circus wrote: »

i'm dying to hear how FG are conservative

Ask them.

The Rooster

smurgen wrote: »

Can you list what multinationals pay the 12.5%? I'm on about the big significant companies.

They all do!

The reports you quoted earlier saying they pay an average 2% or thereabouts includes companies that were incorporated in Ireland but immediately moved their tax residence offshore. They have no Irish presence, no Irish employees. No reason whatsoever to pay Irish tax! The fact that their parent country, the US, had previously failed to tackle this is not Ireland's fault. (Albeit MNCs are now finally moving out of havens and should be all done by end of this year, which is certainly a good thing).

The Irish resident companies that do create so many jobs pay 12.5% tax in Ireland. There are no loopholes for them.

Imagine a bloke called Denis O'Brien, born in Ireland, but now not resident in Ireland. Earns €5m a year, pays zero Irish income tax.
His brother BillyBob O'Brien earns €100k and pays €40k tax.

The Irish O'Brien brothers pay an average effective tax rate of less than 1%. Ireland must be a tax haven. :rolleyes:

To give you a genuine specific example as you requested. Google were recently in the news as being a beneficiary of these 2% mythical rates. But Google's Irish company has publicly available accounts on the Companies Office Registration website. The company name is Google Ireland Limited.

Some interesting information from the 2018 accounts:
Employees - 3,579
Wages - €373M
Employers PRSI paid to Irish tax authority - €40M
Profit before tax - €1,682M
Tax - €272M

Tax includes €3M of foreign tax and €2M of deferred tax, but Irish corporation tax was €267,000,000

Add in the employers PRSI and they are paying well over € 300 million directly into the Irish exchequer. Not to mention the well paid jobs and various indirect benefits they provide through businesses they interact with. And some people still moan about them!

They are just one example. Facebook, Microsoft, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc etc would also be massive contributors to the Irish exchequer. We are blessed to have them.

smurgen

The Rooster wrote: »

They all do!

The reports you quoted earlier saying they pay an average 2% or thereabouts includes companies that were incorporated in Ireland but immediately moved their tax residence offshore. They have no Irish presence, no Irish employees. No reason whatsoever to pay Irish tax! The fact that their parent country, the US, had previously failed to tackle this is not Ireland's fault. (Albeit MNCs are now finally moving out of havens and should be all done by end of this year, which is certainly a good thing).

The Irish resident companies that do create so many jobs pay 12.5% tax in Ireland. There are no loopholes for them.

Imagine a bloke called Denis O'Brien, born in Ireland, but now not resident in Ireland. Earns €5m a year, pays zero Irish income tax.
His brother BillyBob O'Brien earns €100k and pays €40k tax.

The Irish O'Brien brothers pay an average effective tax rate of less than 1%. Ireland must be a tax haven. :rolleyes:

To give you a genuine specific example as you requested. Google were recently in the news as being a beneficiary of these 2% mythical rates. But Google's Irish company has publicly available accounts on the Companies Office Registration website. The company name is Google Ireland Limited.

Some interesting information from the 2018 accounts:
Employees - 3,579
Wages - €373M
Employers PRSI paid to Irish tax authority - €40M
Profit before tax - €1,682M
Tax - €272M

Tax includes €3M of foreign tax and €2M of deferred tax, but Irish corporation tax was €267,000,000

Add in the employers PRSI and they are paying well over € 300 million directly into the Irish exchequer. Not to mention the well paid jobs and various indirect benefits they provide through businesses they interact with. And some people still moan about them!

They are just one example. Facebook, Microsoft, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc etc would also be massive contributors to the Irish exchequer. We are blessed to have them.

But what is the tax paid relative to income?
And tell me why are the U.S authorities and E.U forcing Ireland to charge the actual corporate tax rate and close the tax loopholes?
Also you are not showing the full Google picture and you presented an example that proves my point perfectly. The revenue from Google Ireland limited was 38.1 billion.
This is the important part ;

"Administrative expenses climbed €3.2bn to €25.1bn, caused by an increase in employee numbers required to support the growth of the business as well as royalty payments to the group."

Royalty payments aka syphoning money to avoid tax.

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1095253/

christy c

The Rooster wrote: »

They all do!

The reports you quoted earlier saying they pay an average 2% or thereabouts includes companies that were incorporated in Ireland but immediately moved their tax residence offshore. They have no Irish presence, no Irish employees. No reason whatsoever to pay Irish tax! The fact that their parent country, the US, had previously failed to tackle this is not Ireland's fault. (Albeit MNCs are now finally moving out of havens and should be all done by end of this year, which is certainly a good thing).

The Irish resident companies that do create so many jobs pay 12.5% tax in Ireland. There are no loopholes for them.

Imagine a bloke called Denis O'Brien, born in Ireland, but now not resident in Ireland. Earns €5m a year, pays zero Irish income tax.
His brother BillyBob O'Brien earns €100k and pays €40k tax.

The Irish O'Brien brothers pay an average effective tax rate of less than 1%. Ireland must be a tax haven. :rolleyes:

To give you a genuine specific example as you requested. Google were recently in the news as being a beneficiary of these 2% mythical rates. But Google's Irish company has publicly available accounts on the Companies Office Registration website. The company name is Google Ireland Limited.

Some interesting information from the 2018 accounts:
Employees - 3,579
Wages - €373M
Employers PRSI paid to Irish tax authority - €40M
Profit before tax - €1,682M
Tax - €272M

Tax includes €3M of foreign tax and €2M of deferred tax, but Irish corporation tax was €267,000,000

Add in the employers PRSI and they are paying well over € 300 million directly into the Irish exchequer. Not to mention the well paid jobs and various indirect benefits they provide through businesses they interact with. And some people still moan about them!

They are just one example. Facebook, Microsoft, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc etc would also be massive contributors to the Irish exchequer. We are blessed to have them.

Thanks for that, a good example of what I was saying yesterday of an effective tax rate being higher than 12.5%.

jd1983

Boggles wrote: »

State among highest spenders on health per person in OECD

I think that article is total spend, public & private per capita. It would have been a lot more helpful if they broke it out by public/private spend.
Ireland has very high private health spend through health insurance, medicine and so on. Such private health spend is hardly an indicator of left policies.
Our public spend tends to be very inefficient for this reason. We wait until the condition deteriorates to a severe degree before providing public health care. It then becomes very costly. If more preventative public healthcare was available then it would be a lot more cost effective with better outcomes.

smurgen

christy c wrote: »

Thanks for that, a good example of what I was saying yesterday of an effective tax rate being higher than 12.5%.

No it's not.you don't have a clue how accounting or tax works.please leave it to qualified people.

christy c

smurgen wrote: »

No it's not.you don't have a clue how accounting or tax works.please leave it to qualified people.

I predicted that a link provided would be dismissed and here we are, a company with an effective rate higher than 12.5%. And for the record, I most certainly do know how accounting and tax works.

jd1983

FG is definitely economically right wing by the standards of developed nations. Ireland has a low tax to gnp ratio and low government spend to gnp ratio as well. These ratios have lowered since fg got into power.

Other right wing indicators:
- low corporate tax rate and many loopholes - we're often called a tax haven for corporations
- Urge to privatise - water, b gais energy, broadband scheme, eircode, lotto etc
- a lot of government spend/assets tends to go to corporations or wealthy individuals - e.g: bank/insurance bail outs, national broadband scheme, hap, giving private land to building developers etc
- tax breaks for wealthy e.g. capital gains tax, inheritance tax etc
- allowing vulture funds to register as charities to avoid paying tax
- Enda Kenny's admission that he'd like to move Ireland towards an American taxation model

Thankfully FG has only been in a majority government for 5 years in the past 20 years. For those 5 years they shared that majority with Labour, so we're not yet an extreme right wing society. But rest assured we would be if they were in power for longer, particularly if they had a majority all by themselves.