What current FG policies are right wing?

TallyRand

Seriously? I can’t think of one but perusing these boards it seems FG are a right wing or at least centre-right.

Our poorest, the Social welfare cohort do very well generally, one of the most looked after in the world I would argue.

Definitely need to improve the situation where young people that work hard can’t get in a position to afford a home and the health care (bloated with pen pushers) is its usual sorry state, leaving that aside I still cant unearth a policy that would be considered right wing. Help?

Snotty

Of course they are a left party, it's just the usual boards.ie posters wouldn't admit that.
Maybe some economic policies are center, but none are right.

Eric Cartman

ive started a thread on this before, you'll get nothing bar blue shirt comparissons and some twaddle about helping landlords.

Leo's FG is about as right as Blairs 'New' Labour was left.

Idbatterim

TOtally agree. Except with their pursuit of rip off housing ! World class welfare state. Free housing , luxury in some case. The well off here hammered on tax for nothing in return. Fifty percent marginal rate that even hits the working poor to pay for the obscenity...

Manach

Right wing, and similiarly left wing, political identities are compressed of among things economic and social factors. For the former, FG does embrace a form of the capitialist model of a free model of economic exchange. This is not one that Miles or Von Hayek would support given FG's support of a paternalist state, but it would qualify on being just enough on the right hand side of that spectrum.

almostover

On the Irish political spectrum FG would be considered centre right. But they are a centrist party in the grand scheme. I haven't heard of too many right wing parties who lead the way on legalising divorce, same sex marriage and abortion. Not to mention increases in social welfare and the state pension.

There is an increasing cohort of Irish people who have subscribed to the oooh ahhh up the ra brigade in recent times, which is far more worrying.

Eric Cartman

Thats a very accurate Irish Political Compass

Snotty

Not sure capitalism is a right policy any more, what is being heralded as working socialism is actually capitalism with left social policies.

Tony EH

Are you Boards crypto fascists bemoaning that FG aren't right wing enough for you again.

:pac:

They're a neo liberal conservative party beholden to the free market, which largely benefits the rich. That they're not right wing enough for you lot, it doesn't make them left wing.

Eric Cartman

Tony EH wrote: »

Are you Boards crypto fascists bemoaning that FG aren't right wing enough for you again.

:pac:

They're a neo liberal conservative party beholden to the free market, which largely benefits the rich. That they're not right wing enough for you lot, it doesn't make them left wing.

wanting lower taxes makes people crypto fascists......




wow....

Tony EH

Eric Cartman wrote: »

wanting lower taxes makes people crypto fascists......




wow....

It's a myth that right wing party favour lower taxes.

growleaves

There are so many conflicting definitions of left and right that people are talking past each other most of the time. The terms are from the French assembly, revolutionaries sat on the left and traditionalists sat on the right. So right-wing was whatever was traditional: in France that was Catholicism and monarchism.

Its just that economic liberalism is to the right of socialism - Adam Smith is to the right of Karl Marx - but neither are very traditional really. Capitalism seems to dissolve traditional society.

Loads of people are convinced that 'left and right' are exclusively economic terms but there's no reason why that should be, its just a Cold War convention.

To me right-wing is Aontú, Renua, Christian Solidarity Party (defunct), the FG of the past etc.

W.T. Cosgrave (Cumman na nGaedhal) complained about people in workhouses that: "As a rule their highest aim is to live at the expense of the ratepayers."

But its a mixed economy now, so FG beef up welfare while complaining and dog whistling against it.

smurgen

TallyRand wrote: »

Seriously? I can’t think of one but perusing these boards it seems FG are a right wing or at least centre-right.

Our poorest, the Social welfare cohort do very well generally, one of the most looked after in the world I would argue.

Definitely need to improve the situation where young people that work hard can’t get in a position to afford a home and the health care (bloated with pen pushers) is its usual sorry state, leaving that aside I still cant unearth a policy that would be considered right wing. Help?

Corporate tax policy.

Eric Cartman

smurgen wrote: »

Corporate tax policy.

How, no party in Ireland is silly enough to campaign against the 12.5%

smurgen

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How, no party in Ireland is silly enough to campaign against the 12.5%

You think corporations pay 12.5%?lol
There's lots of loopholes.
We're an international outlier in this respect.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-is-the-world-s-biggest-corporate-tax-haven-say-academics-1.3528401

Geuze

growleaves wrote: »

T.

To me right-wing is Aontú, Renua, Christian Solidarity Party (defunct), the FG of the past etc.

Aontu are a socialist party.

christy c

smurgen wrote: »

You think corporations pay 12.5%?lol
There's lots of loopholes.
We're an international outlier in this respect.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-is-the-world-s-biggest-corporate-tax-haven-say-academics-1.3528401

Some companies pay a effective rate of higher than 12.5% of their accounting profit, but you're unlikely to hear Pearse Doherty crowing about that.

Englo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Thats a very accurate Irish Political Compass

What is the source of this that claims Identity Ireland (associates of Tommy Robinson and Pegida and part of the wider Identitarian movement) are centre right? And holy Christ, that Justin Barrett's National Party out outright centrist?

Nevermind, found it. Some guy on twitter with a few hundred followers, an alleged "PhD in Patriot studies" and a picture about murdering "communists" as his main background image: https://mobile.twitter.com/MickeyVaugn

Can't wait to hear the methodology!

smurgen

christy c wrote: »

Some companies pay a effective rate of higher than 12.5% of their accounting profit, but you're unlikely to hear Pearse Doherty crowing about that.

So you're saying the UN,EU,US government are all wrong when they criticise Ireland's corporation tax and that in fact companies pay the 12.5%? Are they all in the Ra too?

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-corporate-tax-rate-davos-stealing-3817678-Jan2018/

Tony EH

Englo wrote: »

What is the source of this that claims Identity Ireland (associates of Tommy Robinson and Pegida and part of the wider Identitarian movement) are centre right? And holy Christ, that Justin Barrett's National Party out outright centrist?

Nevermind, found it. Some guy on twitter with a few hundred followers, an alleged "PhD in Patriot studies" and a picture about murdering "communists" as his main background image: https://mobile.twitter.com/MickeyVaugn

Can't wait to hear the methodology!

It's bollocks.

smurgen

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How, no party in Ireland is silly enough to campaign against the 12.5%

What's that the point I made? Try reading posts clearly the next time and maybe you might make a cohesive point.

Englo

Englo wrote: »

What is the source of this that claims Identity Ireland (associates of Tommy Robinson and Pegida and part of the wider Identitarian movement) are centre right? And holy Christ, that Justin Barrett's National Party out outright centrist?

Nevermind, found it. Some guy on twitter with a few hundred followers, an alleged "PhD in Patriot studies" and a picture about murdering "communists" as his main background image: https://mobile.twitter.com/MickeyVaugn

Can't wait to hear the methodology!

Wonder what user name their boards account is.

christy c

smurgen wrote: »

So you're saying the UN,EU,US government are all wrong when they criticise Ireland's corporation tax and that in fact companies pay the 12.5%? Are they all in the Ra too?

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-corporate-tax-rate-davos-stealing-3817678-Jan2018/

No, I'm saying some companies pay over 12.5% effective rate. The rest of your post is just more of your usual rubbish.

smurgen

christy c wrote: »

No, I'm saying some companies pay over 12.5% effective rate. The rest of your post is just more of your usual rubbish.

Some companies?lol maybe small companies than can't afford tax efficient structures. I can back up what I'm saying with links. Tell me what types of companies pay over the 12.5%? Can you link me to examples and can you tell me what proportion their revenue is to that of the wider economy?
This is amusing.

Idbatterim

Watching universal credit ; inside the welfare state now on bbc2. Lots of these programmes in the uk. Why won’t an Irish channel touch this whale in the room?

Tony EH

Idbatterim wrote: »

Watching universal credit ; inside the welfare state now on bbc2. Lots of these programmes in the uk. Why won’t an Irish channel touch this whale in the room?

Because only a tiny fraction of people obsess about it. The vast majority don't care.

smurgen

christy c wrote: »

No, I'm saying some companies pay over 12.5% effective rate. The rest of your post is just more of your usual rubbish.

In 2010 U.S companies attributed 98 billion USD profits to Irish subsidiaries these companies would have been paying an effective rate of between 2.2-4.9%.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/infographics/u-s-profits-in-ireland-pile-up.html

Xertz

FG are centrist but, like FF seem to get sucked into a vortex of protecting developers and big vested interests and they’ve just had the rather unpleasant wake up call of realising that a large chunk of the electorate desperately needs housing and the status quo isn’t working for them.

To compare FG to the Tories or the GOP is frankly nonsense though. They’re not a right wing party in their current iteration. They’re closer to probably the centre left of the US Democratic Party with a touch of Clinton economics, or perhaps the pro business side of New Labour. I’m not saying either of those is left but they’re very much centrists and not all that ideologically dogmatic.

They’re fairly strong on welfare and, despite public health being an absolute disaster, they did actually consistently call for a universal health system, they’ve just failed to make any serious progress on delivering it.

I’m both optimistic and pessimistic about SF though. While they’ve great ideas I’m just not seeing how they can be delivered quickly. The housing system issues are supply driven and also being caused by the aftermath of the 2008 crash. We need not only social housing but an entirely different model to to provide people with options to purchase at affordable rates as the unregulated market isn’t meeting the needs of the country.

As for health - where do you start? That “system” is basically extremely resistant to any kind of reform and chews up anyone who attempts to do anything.

I wish SF or whoever takes on the task the very best of luck as I really think it’s beyond the beyonds and will need an iron will and absolutely Teflon coated political capital to make any radical changes and those changes are desperately needed but just cannot be driven.

I’m not buying into this polarisation stuff though. Irish mainstream politics from FG through to SF is all very centrist and generally pragmatic and the system we have and PRSTV tends to deliver consensus finding anyway.
Importing UK or US polarised stuff and trying to apply those labels is really pointless. We need to look to the strengths of our own systems and start building on them to drive the changes people obviously voted for, but that does not equate to winner takes all politics as that’s not how Irish politics works.

christy c

smurgen wrote: »

Some companies?lol maybe small companies than can't afford tax efficient structures. I can back up what I'm saying with links. Tell me what types of companies pay over the 12.5%? Can you link me to examples and can you tell me what proportion their revenue is to that of the wider economy?
This is amusing.

You said "You think corporations pay 12.5%", now its maybe small companies. Also some dumb question about the RA.

What types of companies pay over 12.5%? Companies where there is a mismatch between the tax treatment and accounting treatment. Are you denying their existence? I can get links but not going to do it at midnight. Anyway I expect it would be dismissed and some SF cheerleading thrown in for good measure.

Eric Cartman

Englo wrote: »

What is the source of this that claims Identity Ireland (associates of Tommy Robinson and Pegida and part of the wider Identitarian movement) are centre right? And holy Christ, that Justin Barrett's National Party out outright centrist?

Nevermind, found it. Some guy on twitter with a few hundred followers, an alleged "PhD in Patriot studies" and a picture about murdering "communists" as his main background image: https://mobile.twitter.com/MickeyVaugn

Can't wait to hear the methodology!

Left right is economics, justin barret might fancy himself as a ‘nazi’ but its right, heavy on authoritarianism, not so right on economics.

smurgen

christy c wrote: »

You said "You think corporations pay 12.5%", now its maybe small companies. Also some dumb question about the RA.

What types of companies pay over 12.5%? Companies where there is a mismatch between the tax treatment and accounting treatment. Are you denying their existence? I can get links but not going to do it at midnight. Anyway I expect it would be dismissed and some SF cheerleading thrown in for good measure.

Any links this morning?

Long_Wave

The reason you've never really seen what FG is really like is because they've never had an overhaul majority. Brendan Howlin revealed that Leo Varadkar wanted him to cut social welfare by 40% in 2011.Thats right, arsehole varadkar wanted working age people on social welfare to live on €115.00 per week and oaps to live on €145 per week

osarusan

Englo wrote: »

Can't wait to hear the methodology!

He hints at his 'methodology' here.

Well because IFP are more set on the leaving the EU, I moved them below Renua (EU is a centralized power and centralizing power is authoritarian).

He moves them where he thinks they should be.


And if you can't trust a guy called Professor Micky Vaughn, whose profile pic says he wants to be Pinochet killing 'communist swine', as a fair and honest person to evaluate political positions, sure who can you trust.


There's a thankfully small number of utter clowns on twitter, who have imported a whole mentality that never really existed in Ireland, tweeting and retweeting each other's moronic ramblings.


Just a pity this kind of garbage is increasingly regular on boards.

christy c

smurgen wrote: »

Any links this morning?

No, have a little thing called work to do. Are you denying some companies pay an effective rate over 12.5%? Did you miss that question?

Boggles

When did people come so obsessed with identity politics?

It's tiresome to listen to.

Whatever FG or FF are.

Their failed policy of "sure the market will sort it out"

Is not working. Irish people have been beyond patient.

Time to change that policy or the electorate will change them.

suicide_circus

Tony EH wrote: »

They're a neo liberal conservative party beholden to the free market, which largely benefits the rich. That they're not right wing enough for you lot, it doesn't make them left wing.

i'm dying to hear how FG are conservative

Eric Cartman

Long_Wave wrote: »

The reason you've never really seen what FG is really like is because they've never had an overhaul majority. Brendan Howlin revealed that Leo Varadkar wanted him to cut social welfare by 40% in 2011.Thats right, arsehole varadkar wanted working age people on social welfare to live on €115.00 per week and oaps to live on €145 per week

Thats a move i could get behind, why didnt it get done , why did leo raise welfare instead, also source ?

Cranky obsessions with welfare and the like does do not make a policy its just pandering.

Say what you like about the daft left at least it's policies are somewhat based on marxism. I think most of it is nonsense but that is not the point.

So what evidence-based policys could a right-wing party in Ireland have

Remember it can't just be based on feeling abut welfare or immigrants or whatever.

Geuze

smurgen wrote: »

Some companies?lol maybe small companies than can't afford tax efficient structures. I can back up what I'm saying with links. Tell me what types of companies pay over the 12.5%? Can you link me to examples and can you tell me what proportion their revenue is to that of the wider economy?
This is amusing.

Not all profits are taxed at 12.5%.

Some types of profits are taxed at higher rates, yes.

So it is possible for a company to end up paying more than 12.5% CT.

https://revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/corporation-tax-for-companies/corporation-tax/basis-of-charge.aspx

There are two rates of Corporation Tax (CT):

12.5% for trading income

25% for income from an excepted trade (as defined in part 2 of the Taxes Consolidation Act)

25% for non trading income, for example rental and investment income.
CT is charged on the profits in a company’s accounting period. This period cannot be longer than 12 months. If the tax rate changes in the accounting period, profits will be apportioned on a time basis and taxed accordingly.

Xertz

Again though, the allegation is that Varadkar suggested this, knowing grass roots FF and FG people, I would suggest that they would have not tolerated such a welfare cut as they would have lost their seats over it and they know where their votes come from.

There isn’t really a hardline Tory vote in Ireland. People do have a sense of social solidarity and that’s why you’ve seen a vote that expresses annoyance with the issues in health and housing.

Also look at the polling on issues at the election - things like taxation and crime were way down the list and immigration barely even featured all the public anger is about housing and health and related public services.

The big parties know this and frankly, if Varadkar was proposing those kinds of cuts, it would suggest that he’s not at all in touch with his grass roots or the mood of the electorate.

If FG are drifting towards being more right wing on socioeconomic issues, they got the answer they deserved as that’s not where the electorate is.

smurgen

Geuze wrote: »

Not all profits are taxed at 12.5%.

Some types of profits are taxed at higher rates, yes.

So it is possible for a company to end up paying more than 12.5% CT.

https://revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/corporation-tax-for-companies/corporation-tax/basis-of-charge.aspx

There are two rates of Corporation Tax (CT):

12.5% for trading income

25% for income from an excepted trade (as defined in part 2 of the Taxes Consolidation Act)

25% for non trading income, for example rental and investment income.
CT is charged on the profits in a company’s accounting period. This period cannot be longer than 12 months. If the tax rate changes in the accounting period, profits will be apportioned on a time basis and taxed accordingly.

Can you list what multinationals pay the 12.5%? I'm on about the big significant companies.

smurgen

Geuze wrote: »

Not all profits are taxed at 12.5%.

Some types of profits are taxed at higher rates, yes.

So it is possible for a company to end up paying more than 12.5% CT.

https://revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/corporation-tax-for-companies/corporation-tax/basis-of-charge.aspx

There are two rates of Corporation Tax (CT):

12.5% for trading income

25% for income from an excepted trade (as defined in part 2 of the Taxes Consolidation Act)

25% for non trading income, for example rental and investment income.
CT is charged on the profits in a company’s accounting period. This period cannot be longer than 12 months. If the tax rate changes in the accounting period, profits will be apportioned on a time basis and taxed accordingly.

All of that is on paper by the way income paid back to parent companies is tax exempt.i work in this industry and have been involved in setting up ICAV's and section 110's.oh and Google old Irish gaap accounts if you've the time. Any account department in any significant company in Ireland would be liquidated tomorrow if they ended up paying anything near the 12.5% effective interest rate.

Eric Cartman

smurgen wrote: »

All of that is on paper by the way income paid back to parent companies is tax exempt.i work in this industry and have been involved in setting up ICAV's and section 110's.oh and Google old Irish gaap accounts if you've the time. Any account department in any significant company in Ireland would be liquidated tomorrow if they ended up paying anything near the 12.5% effective interest rate.

Interest rate.... ?

Our tax laws already charge individuals and SME’s too much , we need to cut spending and reduce the tax burden on the lower end without increasing it on the higher end scaring them off

all about the mane

TallyRand wrote: »

Seriously? I can’t think of one but perusing these boards it seems FG are a right wing or at least centre-right.

Our poorest, the Social welfare cohort do very well generally, one of the most looked after in the world I would argue.

Definitely need to improve the situation where young people that work hard can’t get in a position to afford a home and the health care (bloated with pen pushers) is its usual sorry state, leaving that aside I still cant unearth a policy that would be considered right wing. Help?

Oh God, this isn't going to suit the 'left's' agenda at all!

Idbatterim

Long_Wave wrote: »

The reason you've never really seen what FG is really like is because they've never had an overhaul majority. Brendan Howlin revealed that Leo Varadkar wanted him to cut social welfare by 40% in 2011.Thats right, arsehole varadkar wanted working age people on social welfare to live on €115.00 per week and oaps to live on €145 per week

Those rates sound pretty reasonable to me ! Varadkar turning full leftie has been a large part of why Fg have lost power. Listen if welfare rates were minuscule or when appropriate, I wouldn’t have an issue with them. They are insane though , based on an outrageous boom and vote buying. The rates have barely changed. The cost is astronomical. And it’s a poor investment of scarce resources. We need infrastructure, debt repayment, to fund the black hole of health , more housing for working people. We do not need more money fcuked away on welfare and going to the pubs and bookies !

Boggles

Idbatterim wrote: »

Those rates sound pretty reasonable to me ! Varadkar turning full lector has been a large part of why Fg have lost power. Listen if welfare rates were minuscule or when appropriate, I wouldn’t have an issue with them. They are insane though , based on an outrageous boom and vote buying. The rates have barely changed. The cost is astronomical. And it’s a poor investment of scarce resources. We need infrastructure, debt repayment, to fund the black hole of health , more housing for working people. We do not need more money fcuked away on welfare and going to the pubs and bookies !

State among highest spenders on health per person in OECD

Ireland spends €4,706 per head of population on healthcare, one-third more than the average across 35 member countries of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD

How Ireland's spending on welfare compares to the rest of Europe

If you move away from GDP and consider state spending in real money terms, the picture remains largely unchanged. Overall, Irish state spending on social protection when calculated per head of population comes in as just under €8.500 per year as of 2016. We don’t spend the least: that would be Serbia with €982 per head, followed by Bulgaria with €1,104. Neither are we anywhere near the top: that would be Norway (€18,650), closely followed by Luxemburg (€18, 361) and Switzerland (€16,404).

Though these figures paint a picture, there is undoubtedly a common-sense perception that Ireland, as a "welfare state", is overly generous. This myth is then populated with a plethora of "folk devils" such as the "welfare tourist", who has made his or her way here to avail of the generous welfare system, the "scrounger", who has 25 kids he never sees, lives in a palace and has never worked a day in his life; the "welfare mother" who has "churned out" a gaggle of children in order to live off the income the state provides and so on.

The problem with myths is that they usually have little basis in reality and often draw on extreme examples to justify a particular position. Less diplomatically, they are usually about 95% bull****, 5% tenuous fact. Nevertheless, they are powerful, often becoming framing devices through which particular social stereotypes are mediated. Ireland is no different in this respect.

It would great if certain cohorts could base their opinion on actual facts instead of this constant desire to be internet edgelords.

It's just plain boring at this stage.

We get it, yer e-hard. :rolleyes:

blanch152

Boggles wrote: »

State among highest spenders on health per person in OECD



How Ireland's spending on welfare compares to the rest of Europe



It would great if certain cohorts could base their opinion on actual facts instead of this constant desire to be internet edgelords.

It's just plain boring at this stage.

We get it, yer e-hard. :rolleyes:

The difference in spending on social welfare between Ireland and the rest of the EU is almost wholly explained by the age profile of the population and the relatively low numbers of older people. Once you exclude pension support, then you find that Ireland's expenditure on the people you mention - the welfare tourist, the scrounger and the welfare mother - are much more generous than most of Europe.

Idbatterim

Boggles wrote: »

State among highest spenders on health per person in OECD



How Ireland's spending on welfare compares to the rest of Europe

Hang on a minute on welfare ! Does any other state offer unlimited free travel? Free tv license ?

It would great if certain cohorts could base their opinion on actual facts instead of this constant desire to be internet edgelords.

It's just plain boring at this stage.

We get it, yer e-hard. :rolleyes:

What’s your point ? It is a black hole, politician so won’t do anything about it. So that leaves the only option as keep on throwing billions more into it every ear, as we have been doing.

Do other countries offer unlimited free travel for welfare recipients? Virtually free housing for many ? Free tv license for OAPs? Virtually free medicine?

blanch152

Long_Wave wrote: »

The reason you've never really seen what FG is really like is because they've never had an overhaul majority. Brendan Howlin revealed that Leo Varadkar wanted him to cut social welfare by 40% in 2011.Thats right, arsehole varadkar wanted working age people on social welfare to live on €115.00 per week and oaps to live on €145 per week

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/jobseekers-allowance



At least it is better than Northern Ireland where Sinn Fein expect the job-seeker to get by on €86 (£73.10).

Boggles

blanch152 wrote: »

The difference in spending on social welfare between Ireland and the rest of the EU is almost wholly explained by the age profile of the population and the relatively low numbers of older people. Once you exclude pension support, then you find that Ireland's expenditure on the people you mention - the welfare tourist, the scrounger and the welfare mother - are much more generous than most of Europe.

We are lowest in the EU 28 on pension spend, that's what reflects our younger population.

As a whole we are middle of the road in terms of social protection in terms of cash spend with or without pensions.

Boggles

Idbatterim wrote: »

Do other countries offer unlimited free travel for welfare recipients? Virtually free housing for many ? Free tv license for OAPs? Virtually free medicine?

Yes, on top of having things like your heating paid for, various other cash allowances, etc.