30 kWh Leaf down three bars, next step?

BoatMad

Hi, it’s been a while since I posted here

The 2016 30kWh Leaf continues to run well and now has 190,000 km on the clock

It recently just dropped its third bar , and that drop surprised me as the second bar only went at 170K km , I was expecting to see over 200K before this happened.

I’m wondering what to do now , as the car is getting close to its limits doing a 70km trip each way , with work charging during the day , typically I arrive with about 40km of range left , suggesting the car is delivering an effective range of around 110km , this is at a max speed of 105km/h ( Nissan speedo ! ) which is around 95km/h in truth

The car has been fault free , but it’s range is now dropping faster then I’d expected at this stage

I notice there was a service upgrade for the 30kWh in the US to recalibrate the battery life software. Is that something Nissan are doing here

Are there any replacement battery packs now available sub say 6K euro? , cause if the car can’t do the daily commute its largely useless

Any help much appreciated , and yes I still like the car but it would be a pity to have to effectively write it off now and buy a small cheaper secondhand petrol or diesel

I suspect it has very little value as a trade in, which is surprising for a car just about to hint it’s first NCT test !

adunis

Muxsan In the Netherlands, various options they have a website don't seem outrageous price wise there are others also

graememk

adunis wrote: »

Muxsan In the Netherlands, various options they have a website don't seem outrageous price wise there are others also

Yeah they do replacements for 7k for a 30kwh.

Nearly 200k in 4 years.. impressive, I thought we had a decent amount on the clock at nearly 100k at 4 years on our ice car

Zenith74

There was a software update mid-2018 for the 30kWh Leaf SOH issue, have you had a Nissan service done since then?

Not sure it will increase the range though, I think it just corrects a reporting issue so you see the SOH jump a few percent.

unkel

You are doing really well with your Leaf. It has saved you a fortune. It would be insane to spend €6k on a battery change though on a car worth no more than about €10k. If the car no longer has enough range for you, just sell it and buy a longer range EV. Maybe one that has some sort of battery thermal management system which would be better suitable for a very high mileage driver like yourself. The Leaf has the least suitable battery setup of all EVs for someone doing big miles.

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

I notice there was a service upgrade for the 30kWh in the US to recalibrate the battery life software. Is that something Nissan are doing here

I bet you will get that 3rd bar back along with some range too.

iirc, you bought one of the first batch of L30's in this country and they have a problem with how they calculate the SoH. The battery itself doesnt have a problem.

If you get the BMS firmware updated it will calculate the SoH correctly and you should not hit low battery warning levels as early.

How much it helps is variable but people seem to get upto 7% back on their SoH which is a full bar back for you.

Definitely get your dealer to apply that fix. If you have LeafSpy you can check if it is affected. I'll see if I can pull out the details as I have posted it on here before.

KCross

See details and screenshots here
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108582362&postcount=4

Some folks on the forum have had this firmware update done and got some % back as have many in the UK. It was primarily the first batch of L30's so yours is likely affected unless it was done/updated during one of your services... which I'd doubt unless you specifically asked for it.

macnab

As already said, you will see a huge improvement after the Firmware update.
I think we got an extra 40km.

Old diesel

macnab wrote: »

As already said, you will see a huge improvement after the Firmware update.
I think we got an extra 40km.

Because Boatmad has high miles on their car Vs most other L30s.

It's possible their car might actually have genuine degredation.

Still worth trying to get the software update done but I wouldn't expect it to have the same impact on a 190 k Kms car.

unkel

The software won't fix any degradation

I wonder what exactly it does do though. Maybe assign more of the total capacity as available amongst other things? That's not necessarily a good thing.

KCross

It just calculates the capacity properly which affects range. It doesn’t release extra unusable capacity.

TheBoyConor

Get one of those Lithuanian software wizards to reset battery life indicator and then Donedeal it and get rid asap.

Orebro

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Get one of those Lithuanian software wizards to reset battery life indicator and then Donedeal it and get rid asap.

Mental note to never to buy anything from you.

September1

I think we need a garage that specializes in EVs on our island, maybe problem is a weaker cells and this issue can be easily rectified. There was also issue with plates https://insideevs.com/news/361415/corroding-bonding-plates-nissan-leaf/ which again is something that such garage could help.

krissovo

September1 wrote: »

I think we need a garage that specializes in EVs on our island, maybe problem is a weaker cells and this issue can be easily rectified. There was also issue with plates https://insideevs.com/news/361415/corroding-bonding-plates-nissan-leaf/ which again is something that such garage could help.

I invested in a UK garage last year that is taking on EV and specifically battery repair and they will expand to Ireland in the summer and be fully operational in 18 months so they can trade in Europe and import OEM parts after brexit.

Getting the technicians manufacturer certified has been a challenge as well as the specialist tools but currently they can change cells in I3's and Leafs.

TheBoyConor

I didn't know that cells could be changed. I though that the whole battery is sealed in and once a cell developed a fault that's it, the battery was scrap. And the rest of the car is wrote off because a replacement battery would be prohibitively expensive unless the car was in warranty.

graememk

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I didn't know that cells could be changed. I though that the whole battery is sealed in and once a cell developed a fault that's it, the battery was scrap. And the rest of the car is wrote off because a replacement battery would be prohibitively expensive unless the car was in warranty.

It all comes apart like Lego,

It's a long but very detailed video of reassembly of a leaf battery

https://youtu.be/vYQJatWpBXY (I know 2011) but it hasn't changed much.

If you knew what you were doing you could pick up a cheap battery for your house. Disassemble and arrange in an appropriate enclosure.

A 24kwh leaf battery at 50-60% might not be viable as a car but say a 12kwh one for a house is plenty

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Any help much appreciated , and yes I still like the car but it would be a pity to have to effectively write it off now and buy a small cheaper secondhand petrol or diesel

I suspect it has very little value as a trade in, which is surprising for a car just about to hint it’s first NCT test !

Hey BoatMad.

I think from the highlighted text above that you already know what you need to do, I wouldn't put a cent into the Leaf at 190K it's not worth it.

Sell it privately and buy a good cheap Petrol or Diesel or even a 2nd hand Prius, the Prius is a great car.

If you want to get another EV and want to spend the cash then see if you can find an Ioniq at a decent price or even an 94 Ah BMW i3 Rex.

The battery in the i3 "94" ah is proving to be pretty reliable so far how it fairs after 190K is anyone's guess but so far it's showing to have much less degradation than any leaf for the same year and mileage. Mine is showing no "noticeable" loss in capacity after 3 years and 81,000 Kms. Best thing is the Rex is your backup should you need it and if there is degradation in the years to come the Rex can make up for this.

The i3 battery charges pretty fast too when the battery is warm of course but it has a better chance of being warm enough for a faster charge than the leaf with the battery heater and the AC cools it when needed so you can fast charge all day and night drive it hard and it will never get too hot or slow down your fast charge current.

I drove the i3 efficiently yesterday for the first time in a long time and got 173 Kms and had 13% left.

If you can't find an Ioniq or don't want to spend the money on a 2nd hand one or the i3 is not suitable and getting a 39,000 EURO 64 Kwh e-soul or Kona is not an option then I would look out for a Prius, that would be my first choice if I had to go back to ICE, they are very reliable and run for over 500,000 Kms usually without much issue.

I would not get another Leaf in a hurry even if 190,000 kms is good mileage the range gets less and less and becomes more of a headache and I couldn't imagine living with it at this point. No thermal management etc.

I doubt at the mileage any BMS fix will give you back anything meaningful but might be worth a shot.

Fixing battery cells won't give you back 100% capacity either so it wouldn't be worth spending the money, and ideally modules replaced should be of the same age and internal resistance + capacity. It's not something I would entertain to be honest.

190K good mileage, time to let it go.

KCross

September1 wrote: »

There was also issue with plates https://insideevs.com/news/361415/corroding-bonding-plates-nissan-leaf/ which again is something that such garage could help.

That has no affect whatsoever on battery degradation/range. Thats an earthing plate which affects safety only.

KCross

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I didn't know that cells could be changed. I though that the whole battery is sealed in and once a cell developed a fault that's it, the battery was scrap. And the rest of the car is wrote off because a replacement battery would be prohibitively expensive unless the car was in warranty.

Nope. A few companies in the UK will replace weak/dud cells from the pack for about €1500.

Its rarely needed though.

Orebro

Nothing useful to add here OP, just to say that this really is testament to the reliability of the Leaf and EVs in general - if it was suitable for your daily range then this thread wouldn't even exist and you'd be motoring away trouble free to 200K Kms onwards - not sure it would be the same trouble free story if it were an ICE.

190K Kms is only 118,000 miles at the end of the day with significant component of the vehicle no longer fit for purpose, you wouldn't expect that from ICE, I know it's not an ICE but the fact remains the car is practically useless now for BoatMad and he's said previously that he's had to pay the overstay fee at the fast charger just to get to the next destination/charger.

Reliability of the car is good but it's only as good as the battery at the end of the day.

Batteries and range have improved though so the likes of the 64 Kwh Kona and E-soul should in theory last significantly longer due to the fact they have much more Kwh and will be cycled much less and they have thermal management.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

190K Kms is only 118,000 miles at the end of the day with significant component of the vehicle no longer fit for purpose, you wouldn't expect that from ICE, I know it's not an ICE but the fact remains the car is practically useless now for BoatMad...

I wouldnt go quite that far yet. Lets see what the BMS update will do for him first. It is a well known problem that has an easy fix and has added decent range for others.

Lets see what he gets from that first before saying its not fit for purpose. He's doing 140km per day so he is at the edge of the L30's range anyway, even when new.

Old diesel

Deleted User wrote: »

190K Kms is only 118,000 miles at the end of the day with significant component of the vehicle no longer fit for purpose, you wouldn't expect that from ICE, I know it's not an ICE but the fact remains the car is practically useless now for BoatMad and he's said previously that he's had to pay the overstay fee at the fast charger just to get to the next destination/charger.

Reliability of the car is good but it's only as good as the battery at the end of the day.

Batteries and range have improved though so the likes of the 64 Kwh Kona and E-soul should in theory last significantly longer due to the fact they have much more Kwh and will be cycled much less and they have thermal management.

If you add up some of the common ICE issues - you'd quickly close the gap on a Leaf battery.

Turbo????? - 1500 euros.

DMF - a grand.

4 injectors - say 1500 euros.

Then we have the model specific issues that ICE cars come with.

Ford Ecoboost headgaskets.

Mazda DPFs...

BMW timing chains.....

How long is the 30s bettery warranty.....

I mean if it's 100 k miles then - one might be able to push Nissan for goodwill. Chances are they will say no but perhaps it's worth having the conversation.

Orebro

Deleted User wrote: »

190K Kms is only 118,000 miles at the end of the day with significant component of the vehicle no longer fit for purpose, you wouldn't expect that from ICE, I know it's not an ICE but the fact remains the car is practically useless now for BoatMad and he's said previously that he's had to pay the overstay fee at the fast charger just to get to the next destination/charger.

Reliability of the car is good but it's only as good as the battery at the end of the day.

Batteries and range have improved though so the likes of the 64 Kwh Kona and E-soul should in theory last significantly longer due to the fact they have much more Kwh and will be cycled much less and they have thermal management.

It's still a perfectly usable car - just the range doesn't suit his commute, it's the wrong tool for the job. Whereas if I owned it I would be charging it maybe 3 times a week! Horses for courses and all that. It's not the cars fault!

Old diesel

On a wider EV vs ICE reliability thing - it's worth noting that other makers whether it's Renault, Tesla or Hyundai/Kia.

They all use active cooling and most battery degredation issues seem to be a Nissan issue.

So the wider expectations is that EVs should generally be more reliable then ICE cars.

Comes down to stuff like what kind of Prius you can get for the price of a Leaf battery.

You will be looking at a Prius that's older - also has miles on the clock and inspite of Prius reputation can still have it's own issues as all cars do.

kanuseeme

That mileage in a diesel would cost the OP nearly 12000 euro, I don't know what he paid for it, any car depreciates and the only saving to be made is really on fuel.

It would make a good car for someone who only needs its present range and they will in turn, save on fuel.

Old diesel

Old diesel wrote: »

If you add up some of the common ICE issues - you'd quickly close the gap on a Leaf battery.

Turbo????? - 1500 euros.

DMF - a grand.

4 injectors - say 1500 euros.

Then we have the model specific issues that ICE cars come with.

Ford Ecoboost headgaskets.

Mazda DPFs...

BMW timing chains.....

How long is the 30s bettery warranty.....

I mean if it's 100 k miles then - one might be able to push Nissan for goodwill. Chances are they will say no but perhaps it's worth having the conversation.

I know a lot of people, myself included that had no ice issues for well north of 190,000 kms.

Orebro

Orebro wrote: »

It's still a perfectly usable car - just the range doesn't suit his commute, it's the wrong tool for the job. Whereas if I owned it I would be charging it maybe 3 times a week! Horses for courses and all that. It's not the cars fault!

It was perfectly usable when he got it, and ICE would still be perfectly usable still.

Yes it will still live on for someone who does low mileage but it's still very restrictive.

It will be interesting to see if the BMS update brings it up a bit though.

Us early adopters are well aware of the implications of BEV that's why I got my Leaf on PCP so I wouldn't be the one stung with an impractical car.

I had seen a reduction in range in my leaf after 3 years and 85,000 kms, in the i3 I don't see this reduction at all which makes me think I might just keep it and by the time I get another range should have improved, recharge times and cost to buy. The i3 battery ( so far ) is doing a lot better than I thought.

McGiver

krissovo wrote:

I invested in a UK garage last year that is taking on EV and specifically battery repair and they will expand to Ireland in the summer and be fully operational in 18 months so they can trade in Europe and import OEM parts after brexit.

Getting the technicians manufacturer certified has been a challenge as well as the specialist tools but currently they can change cells in I3's and Leafs.[/quote]
Can you PM details? Wasn't aware of i3 third party battery hackers. For Leaf there are several (NL, UK, FI, FR).

ELM327

The bms update will put it to about 80-82% SOH I would guess

So back to 11 capacity bars perhaps? And more importantly the calculations for range remaining begin to work better again.

If I get it right a '16 L30 without the battery BMS firmware update results the car reserving lots of capacity below the very low battery warning. Even without the update you could still use it if you wanted to live dangerously and drive the car well below indicated 0 miles remaining.

unkel

Is that all the software update does? So no change to usable battery capacity, but it just removes / moves down a low range battery warning? That's feck all use to an experienced owner then (but good for resale value) unless it also doesn't let turtle mode kick in later?

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Is that all the software update does? So no change to usable battery capacity, but it just removes / moves down a low range battery warning? That's feck all use to an experienced owner then (but good for resale value) unless it also doesn't let turtle mode kick in later?

No,. it increases the usable capacity in kWh

The way I understand is that the bug in BMS without the upgrade reports less capacity that the battery actually has. You can still use this capacity without applying the update as the battery shutdown happens when the voltage of one or more cells falls below some fixed value not when the BMS reports that the battery is flat. But you'd be driving blind as the car would have claimed that the battery is about to run out tens of kilometers before it actually happens. The issue is a gradual process which has lead to ever increasing reported degratation (reduction in the battery capacity).

The update fixes the bug and the BMS will then be able to report the real capacity again and not the faulty lower one it thought was correct. So LeafSpy etc. shows increased capacity on the battery but in reality that capacity has always been there just hidden from view. It's opposite of how the hidden buffers on other marques work as usually the hidden buffer is slowly used up until the actual battery capacity becomes the real capacity. In the 2016 LEAF, in effect, the car creates an ever increasing hidden buffer while at the same time also the real capacity of the battery gets smaller due to the real degradation so the battery stats appear terrible after few years/many kilometers.

McGiver

ELM327 wrote:

No,. it increases the usable capacity in kWh

I speculate it may also release some of the buffer. Allegedly the BMW i3 had a similar SW update.

McGiver

McGiver wrote: »

I speculate it may also release some of the buffer. Allegedly the BMW i3 had a similar SW update.

The i3 ? first I heard.

The 22 Kwh Zoe had the same update.

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

I speculate it may also release some of the buffer. Allegedly the BMW i3 had a similar SW update.

Yes, that is my understanding as to how the "additional" kWh are achieved.

Markcheese

https://www.donedeal.ie/carparts-for-sale/nissan-leaf-battery-modules/23375950

I ve zero idea who he is ,or what his skills /qualifications are , or why he has 17 battery packs left ?
But ,if it gets someone with a weak battery pack back on the go ,for reasonable money then whoo hoo...

Just thought ,he doesn't mention which generation leaf it is ...