The 2021 Toyota Miari

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

I never said I thought there'll be 80 Hydrogen stations in Ireland by 2020.

Yea, you did!

80 Hydrogen fuel stations planed in Ireland by 2030.

So no need for batteries or very little.

That statement makes it sound like its a done deal. You should have put more context around it.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

I never said I thought there'll be 80 Hydrogen stations in Ireland by 2020.

Err.. I didn't say you said 2020, I said that you said that there would be 80 by 2030. Which you said exactly this in your first post!:

Deleted User wrote: »

80 Hydrogen fuel stations planed in Ireland by 2030.

bk

bk wrote: »

Err.. I didn't say you said 2020, I said that you said that there would be 80 by 2030. Which you said exactly this in your first post!:

Typo, but the fact remains, I linked to the article, I didn't suggest there would be 80 Hydrogen stations by 2030.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

Typo, but the fact remains, I linked to the article, I didn't suggest there would be 80 Hydrogen stations by 2030.

I'm confused, that is clearly exactly what you suggested!

Nor did you link to any article about the suggested 80 stations in Ireland, I linked to the article!

Mickeroo

Deleted User wrote: »

Typo, but the fact remains, I linked to the article, I didn't suggest there would be 80 Hydrogen stations by 2030.

You said they were planned, which isn't true either it seems :pac:

bk

krissovo wrote: »

hydrogen has its own issues and most of the "hydrogen highway" in California is served by tanks that only store ~120kg of hydrogen so they have apps similar to EV's to show the capacities as a car will take 4 to 5kg to fuel up.

Which is only 24 to 30 cars per day! A petrol station would do that number of cars in one hour.

Of course supercharging is almost as slow. But the difference is the at home charging or at work charging. I bet your work place office has chargers for those Tesla's they now have, right.

Kramer

bk wrote: »

So you are talking at least €160million for 80 stations. How many fast chargers could you build for that?

I reckon if you gave it to Ecars, we'd get probably 2 fast chargers & a few AC charge points, in 2026 .

Kramer

Gees Mad_Lad, it's a pile-on :eek:
I guess you now know how Thierry/Mike felt - not seen him for ages either .

I think there will be a place for hydrogen going forward, not sure if it'll be in passenger cars though.

krissovo

bk wrote: »

They say that the government will need to subsidised this by €1.5m to €2m per station! Which BTW is on the low side, they cost $2m to $3m in the US. So you are talking at least €160million for 80 stations. How many fast chargers could you build for that?

Some of your costs are taking the high estimates, the majority of the US filling stations are not much more than large tanks with a compressor & pumps attached. I assume you have factored local refineries at the stations rather than just storage tanks which are cheaper. Also in the US they have standard stations which are lower pressure that may cause issues filling & re-filling issues but they also have "superior" units which are a high pressure design that does not have the issue. You could liken the different stations to fast, rapid and high speed EV chargers.

bk

In fairness to Mad_Lad, his enthusiasm and optimism is great.

When I first heard about FCV's I thought the same as him, a simple, drop in replacement for petrol/Diesel. But when you look into the details of it, it turns out to be extremely more difficult, complex and expensive then it first looks. Once you get into the detail of it all, it looks to be far poorer then EV's IMO. I agree that it probably has a place in some big trucks and buses, but not in cars.

Also I agree with Mad_Lad's that the situation with the EV charging network isn't good and it needs to be sorted fast. But spending 100's of millions on Hydrogen stations isn't the solution IMO. It just distracts with the real solution, forcing the government to get the finger out and hurry up the ESB on it.

bk

krissovo wrote: »

Some of your costs are taking the high estimates, the majority of the US filling stations are not much more than large tanks with a compressor & pumps attached.

The €1.5m to 2m per station cost I quoted actually comes from the Irish consortium looking to build these stations in Ireland! As such, if anything, I'd expect it to be on the low side.

Third_Echelon

I don't think the new concept looks are that great?! Is it just me?!

Looks a bit like a Mazda 6 or something like that. Mazda 6 is a nice car, don't get me wrong, but i don't think i'd be running out to buy a Miari based on the looks. Current model, not great looking. Future model, looks OK i suppose. All relative i suppose if the first model is considered ugly

zilog_jones

Typo in the thread title: It should be "Mirai"

Deleted User wrote: »

Toyota certainly has 0 intentions in BEV probably because they invested so much in Fuel cells.

• Toyota Ultra-Compact BEV: On sale in Japan this year
• Lexus UX 300e: 2021 in Europe

Certainly

zilog_jones

zilog_jones wrote: »

Typo in the thread title: It should be "Mirai"

• Toyota Ultra-Compact BEV: On sale in Japan this year
• Lexus UX 300e: 2021 in Europe

Certainly

How much will the Lexus cost ? :pac:

The Toyota ultra compact is an ultra joke.

Interesting article.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cells-stupid-but-tech-may-threaten-tesla.html

zilog_jones

Deleted User wrote: »

The Toyota ultra compact is an ultra joke.

Due to Japan's ageing population and other factors, there is a lot of interest in small low-speed vehicles like this. Regardless, it proves your "0 intentions in BEV" statement is false. It is not zero, whatever it is.

No confirmed price on the Lexus.

serfboard

Deleted User wrote: »

Interesting article.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cells-stupid-but-tech-may-threaten-tesla.html

Interesting in that, one, it's a year old and there has been a lot of EV developments in the meantime and two, it's full of quotes by vested interests talking about what "should" and "could" happen.

Fiat Chrysler does not have a fuel cell vehicle on sale in the U.S., but for 15 years it has supported research led by Professor David Antonelli, the chair of physical chemistry at Lancaster University in the U.K., that could bring costs down for the technology. His team is working with a material that enables fuel tanks to be smaller, cheaper and more energy-dense than existing hydrogen fuel technologies as well as battery-powered vehicles.

"The cost of manufacturing our material is so low, and the energy density it can store is so much higher than a lithium-ion battery, that we could see hydrogen fuel cell systems that cost four times less than lithium-ion batteries, as well as providing a much longer range," said Antonelli. The technology has been licensed to a for-profit company called Kubagen, set up by Antonelli.

Hydrogen is the future, says man who will make a lot of money if that is the case.

Ford aren't buying it, though:

"With a steadily growing share of renewable energies, hydrogen fuel cells could play a role in the future," said a Ford spokesman. "In terms of a widespread market launch, however, the battery is currently in a superior position to the fuel cell – not least because of the cost situation and the available infrastructure. Our work will continue to focus on electrification as we monitor hydrogen's progress. We have no current plans to offer hydrogen fuel cell vehicles."

The only reason Toyota are pushing this is because they are behind on EV development, and they've (wrongly) spent a lot of money developing Hydrogen vehicles and are reluctant to let it go.

Apart from possible use in trucks (and I wouldn't even be sure about that), Hydrogen vehicles have no future. There are even battery-electric trains now, for God's sake.

Musk must be laughing all the way to the stock exchange when he reads articles like this.

highdef

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Don’t know about the current Prius but my old Prius MK II could do 840 kms on 45 litres.

Wow, I'd always assumed they got great fuel economy. I've a 1.5 diesel Focus and get over 1,000 km from 50 litres which is even better than a Prius!

highdef

highdef wrote: »

Wow, I'd always assumed they got great fuel economy. I've a 1.5 diesel Focus and get over 1,000 km from 50 litres which is even better than a Prius!

For a petrol Automatic with 2004 technology, yes it is/was good.

Today's Prius might be able to do much better, I don't know I have no experience with them.

zilog_jones

The maximum capacity of the fuel tank is 45 litres, I doubt you ran it dry so must have used less fuel than that to go that distance...

A Gen 4 Prius (2016 onward) will easily do 4.5 l/100km

zilog_jones

zilog_jones wrote: »

The maximum capacity of the fuel tank is 45 litres, I doubt you ran it dry so must have used less fuel than that to go that distance...

A Gen 4 Prius (2016 onward) will easily do 4.5 l/100km

Possibly, I would have to go through my old prius posts to find exactly.

Basically I averaged around 4.6 L/100 km in Winter and around 4.2 in Summer.

highdef

The 1.5 diesel Focus I have had either 4.6 or 4.7/100km showing for the past two years since I got it new so I don't a hybrid would cut it for me. My company is switching to electric soon so I'll be most likely getting worked an ioniq or a Kona. Then I'll be a 2 EV household!

McGiver

By the way from a fella who tested both Mirai and Tesla...can't find the tweet.

He said the issues with HFCV were - not enough power/torque compared to EV, refuelling serious PITA (waiting as mentioned, freezing of the nozzle to the car etc), and surprisingly winter range drop worse than EV.

highdef

highdef wrote: »

The 1.5 diesel Focus I have had either 4.6 or 4.7/100km showing for the past two years since I got it new so I don't a hybrid would cut it for me. My company is switching to electric soon so I'll be most likely getting worked an ioniq or a Kona. Then I'll be a 2 EV household!

As I said, the greatest improvements in the Prius have come from the ICE, so these days the Prius probably does better on Juice.

But obviously yeah, if EV suits it's the best.

For a 2007 Prius using 2004 Tech and being a Petrol Automatic I think 4.2 - 4.6 L/100 Kms was pretty good and the Prius is larger too than a focus.

Today the Prius is more powerful too than a 1.5 Focus manual diesel.

The i3 Rex is probably the best PHEV you'd find if the size suits.