The 2021 Toyota Miari

https://www.motor1.com/news/375766/2021-toyota-mirai-fuel-cell/

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1126904_2021-toyota-mirai-aims-for-400-mile-range-more-details-on-sporty-hydrogen-fuel-cell-sedan

I have to say it does look nice, 700 Km range, most likely Japanese cycle.

Didn't get the power of the motor but the previous one was around 150 Hp so I don't expect it to be very exciting but decent. Can power the motor alone.

So yeah, I think the Fuel cell has advanced enough to be more than accepted if the cost can be right but there is very few Hydrogen filling stations.

Refill in 5 mins.

BMW to use the same fuel cell in 2022.

80 Hydrogen fuel stations planed in Ireland by 2030.

So no need for batteries or very little. That is a good thing but the production of hydrogen needs to get a lot cleaner, excess wind and Nuclear.

Government would be delighted to see us use Hydrogen because they can tax the Sh1t out of it, they can't with electricity.

It will be interesting to see how it all develops and whether the manufacturers start to produce fuel cells.

But for the foreseeable BEV will take the lead in green car production, it doesn't look like there will be any major breakthrough in batteries in the near future at least.

KCross

“ 80 Hydrogen fuel stations planed in Ireland by 2030.”

Where did you hear that?
I haven’t seen it in any govt plans. I’d say much less chance of that happening than the 1m EVs by 2030 and that’s a long shot too.

graememk

If you lived somewhat near a h2 station it wouldn't be too bad, 700k is enough to get to anywhere in Ireland and back, even if it is the Japan cycle


Anyone know a comparison between the wltp and the Japan cycle?

Now, how far would you go for a h2 station (if it wasn't on you way to work/etc

My nearest town (with petrol stations) and is 5-6 (8ish km) miles away, and nearest city is 25 miles (40ish km/ 30-40 min drive) away.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

“ 80 Hydrogen fuel stations planed in Ireland by 2030.”

Where did you hear that?
I haven’t seen it in any govt plans. I’d say much less chance of that happening than the 1m EVs by 2030 and that’s a long shot too.

Google it was in the times last year.

If the Government can make a lot more money on hydrogen you can bet they will push to have hydrogen stations installed.

It wouldn’t surprise me if the petrol stations start installing hydrogen stations in the nearer future.

graememk

graememk wrote: »

If you lived somewhat near a h2 station it wouldn't be too bad, 700k is enough to get to anywhere in Ireland and back, even if it is the Japan cycle


Anyone know a comparison between the wltp and the Japan cycle?

Now, how far would you go for a h2 station (if it wasn't on you way to work/etc

My nearest town (with petrol stations) and is 5-6 (8ish km) miles away, and nearest city is 25 miles (40ish km/ 30-40 min drive) away.

I’m around 5 k from the nearest petrol station but my ev station is at home.

If Toyota could sell those for the cost of a Prius then they’d sell like hot cakes provided you could get the hydrogen.

You can be damn sure the majority of the public would rather a hydrogen car anyway.

graememk

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I’m around 5 k from the nearest petrol station but my ev station is at home.

If Toyota could sell those for the cost of a Prius then they’d sell like hot cakes provided you could get the hydrogen.

You can be damn sure the majority of the public would rather a hydrogen car anyway.

New Prius is about 34k?

What sort of range does a fill.of a tank get on a prius.

If they matched that... And had h2 availability. Would sell really well.

Getting the h2 availability is the sticking point.

Do you think it would sell say if it had the range say of the ev triplets at the same price (40k) (assuming h2 availability)


Have a bulk tank of Derv at home so been able to self fill at home, I understand the benefits of having a refill/charge at the house.

when it's empty it's such a chore to actually go to a petrol station. Moving to an EV and home charging isn't going to be a huge break in habit.

Also it's a nice looking cruiser of a car.

Don’t know about the current Prius but my old Prius MK II could do 840 kms on 45 litres.

I think most people would rather a hydrogen car because refuelling would be a similar experience even if the fuel is more expensive I think people would accept it and once you are so used to spending so much on fuel it becomes normal so if you can get a fuel cell car out to the masses before they all go electric no one would be aware electric as so cheap or at least very few.

But depends on the cost of hydrogen whether someone would buy a 40 k fuel cell car over a battery car, the cost of electricity is cheap hydrogen is never going to be that cheap and the Government will see to that they can also make free money on hydrogen so everything stays as it is as hydrogen becomes a gravy train for big companies and governments.

The car manufacturers will make whatever makes them the most money and the fact the fuel might cost people more wont matter to them.

mp3guy

Morbid curiosity in seeing a 10,000 PSI tank rupture. I feel it would be more spectacular than a BEV fire or an ICE fuel explosion.

Atlantic Dawn

It will live and die by the refuel cost and how many fuel stations will support it.

pdpmur

mp3guy wrote: »

Morbid curiosity in seeing a 10,000 PSI tank rupture. I feel it would be more spectacular than a BEV fire or an ICE fuel explosion.

There was a Hydrogen fuel station fire in the last year in Norway:
https://insideevs.com/news/354223/hydrogen-fueling-station-explodes/
https://qz.com/1641276/a-hydrogen-fueling-station-explodes-in-norways-baerum/

Interestingly according to the reports there appears to have been a hydrogen leak from a storage tank followed by a hydrogen fire with quite a significant pressure wave.

Obviously a tank rupture could be quite a lot more damaging. Hydrogen has some interesting PVT properties that make it potentially more susceptible to auto-ignition:
https://www.britannica.com/science/Joule-Thomson-effect

Effects

Looks amazing in the concept, then you see the real thing and it looks a bit meh.

pdpmur

Effects wrote: »

Looks amazing in the concept, then you see the real thing and it looks a bit meh.

Yeah, but can you imagine the amount of legal cases for brain trauma, perforated ear drums, whiplash, etc etc that will be generated by such a pressure wave from a fire in Ireland? The serial claimers will have a field day.

I don’t think there’s been a case of one exploding yet and there’s more than a few the last number of years.

But if the manufacturers are going with hydrogen in the future we won’t have much choice, they’ll go with what makes the most profit.

Im sure there won’t be many exploding the sh1t will be smashed out of them during crash testing. If there’s a issue with exploding thanks they won’t risk getting sued.

Effects

Deleted User wrote: »

If there’s a issue with exploding thanks they won’t risk getting sued.

timsey tiger

graememk wrote: »

If you lived somewhat near a h2 station it wouldn't be too bad.

But would you object to the planning application, because it would devalue the value of your house, or maybe your neighbour's would get your useful local td/councillor/Healy-Rea type to do it.

bk

People talk about how it only takes 5 minutes to refuel a hydrogen vehicle. But then forget to mention that it then takes 20 minutes for sufficient pressure to build up to fill then next car. In other words, you can only refuel a hydrogen car about once every 25 minutes. No at all that different then fast charging.

Only it is worse, because you don't have at home fuelling like you do for electric and if all cars were hydrogen you would end up with massive queues at hydrogen stations with people waiting to use the pump every 25 minutes!

Also you have the issue that the refuelling stations can't be built anywhere close to homes, because of their explosive potential. People above are talking about their petrol stations being only 5km away. But there won't be any city/village/town based hydrogen refuelling stations like you currently have for petrol stations. Only motorway style fuelling stations will be possible. And that is fine if you pass one every day on your daily commute. But for city based people it would be a massive pain in the neck, having to drive out onto the motorway once a week, just to get hydrogen!

At first glance, the idea of Hydrogen seems cool, it looks like a direct replacement for oil/diesel. But once you look into the details of the practicalities of it, cost, transport, production, etc. It really doesn't add up for most vehicles IMO.

graememk

timsey tiger wrote: »

But would you object to the planning application, because it would devalue the value of your house, or maybe your neighbour's would get your useful local td/councillor/Healy-Rea type to do it.

Quite rural where I am so that wouldn't be a problem for me, with the nearest petrol station 8km away! There was ones closer but went bust/retired. So its never will be an issue for me (and never lived in a town)

How close would be too close? 1k? 500m?

There prob will be added to the large stations, could they replace the underground fuel tanks with h2 eventually?

I can see HGV's eventually going down the h2 route. But I'd say that still 30 years out.

Wrightbus are bringing out h2 buses now up north, so if the public transit could be switched from Diesel and they have their own depo with refueling point.

Duke O Smiley

[Deleted User] wrote: »

80 Hydrogen fuel stations planed in Ireland by 2030.

That’s laughable.

I’m guessing in reality that figure will be about what, 15?

I'm sure the pump pressure issue is not going to be an issue much longer, if it's even an issue today I don't know.

I can imagine technology will solve many hydrogen relates issues long before there is that magic breakthrough in battery tech.

Battery tech is good enough for most but the issue of poor recharge times when cold and lack of public chargers remains a serious issue.

You can be damn sure than if Car manufacturers choose to build fuel cell cars and abandon battery cars that the roll out of hydrogen stations will take a fraction of the time than it's taken to install chargers.

The length of time it's taken to install the miserable amount of chargers in Ireland is shocking, the ESB only install their first 2 chargers since 2015 in November 2019, then they call a 2x charger installation with no weather protection a " charging hub " it's a disgrace.

There's much more of a profit to be made with a hydrogen economy and I feel this is the direction car manufacturers will go because they won't have to install or buy expensive batteries, unless there's a dramatic reduction in the cost of batteries in the next 10 years.

Duke O Smiley

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

That’s laughable.

I’m guessing in reality that figure will be about what, 15?

That's the Irish Government, their charging infrastructure plan has been a disgrace.

If the big oil companies decide to roll out the infrastructure that's a different matter and of course if it turns out it costs a lot less to make fuel cell cars than battery cars you can be sure car manufacturers will be quick enough to drop battery cars for fuel cell.

Toyota certainly has 0 intentions in BEV probably because they invested so much in Fuel cells.

Effects

timsey tiger wrote: »

But would you object to the planning application, because it would devalue the value of your house, or maybe your neighbour's would get your useful local td/councillor/Healy-Rea type to do it.

Surely they'd just be part of where my local petrol station is anyway, so no real change to my house value.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure the pump pressure issue is not going to be an issue much longer, if it's even an issue today I don't know.

It has proven to be a major issue in Korea, where Hyundai have been pushing it. Big queues at the relatively small number of pumps.

Deleted User wrote: »

I can imagine technology will solve many hydrogen relates issues long before there is that magic breakthrough in battery tech.

Why? Battery tech seems to be advancing at a much faster pace then hydrogen.

Battery R&D gains the advantage that it is also needed for mobile, phones, tablets, laptops and all sorts of consumer electronics. So advancements there cross pollinate with automotive batteries and grid battery tech. Hydrogen doesn't have this advantage.

I haven't heard any talk about a cost effective solution to the hydrogen pressure issue.

And of course, the point is, this isn't really an issue for EV's, as most people will charge at home. A 30 minute fast charge is a relatively infrequent need for long distance trips. Whilst a 25 to 30 minute hydrogen wait will be at least a weekly chore for hydrogen cars.

Deleted User wrote: »

Battery tech is good enough for most but the issue of poor recharge times when cold and lack of public chargers remains a serious issue.

The point is, hydrogen cars fuelling time is as slow as fast charging due to the low pressure issue of fuelling, so it isn't going to magically go away as a problem and it is a much more serious issue due to the lack of at home fuelling.

And lack of public charges. LOL, versus the zero hydrogen stations in Ireland at the moment! And the cost of building them 2 million plus (much more expensive then a petrol station) and how few of them there will be and how you can't build them near populated places and how you will have massive queues of people charging only every 25 minutes as they will be the only way to refuel.

Hydrogen is definitely not the solution to this issue. The solution is at home charging, bigger batteries and lots more fast chargers. It really isn't that hard of an issue.

Deleted User wrote: »

You can be damn sure than if Car manufacturers choose to build fuel cell cars and abandon battery cars that the roll out of hydrogen stations will take a fraction of the time than it's taken to install chargers.

you are deluded if you think that! Given the very high cost of the hydrogen stations, planning premission issues and issues with them not able to be built near homes. Rollout will be extremely slow.

And anyway the auto companies have mostly given up on the Hydrogen dream, even Toyota has announced that they are going to start building full EV's

Deleted User wrote: »

The length of time it's taken to install the miserable amount of chargers in Ireland is shocking, the ESB only install their first 2 chargers since 2015 in November 2019, then they call a 2x charger installation with no weather protection a " charging hub " it's a disgrace.

And hydrogen stations will take 10 times as long to build just one, given the cost and planning objections.

bk

Effects wrote: »

Surely they'd just be part of where my local petrol station is anyway, so no real change to my house value.

No, hydrogen stations are much larger, much more complicated and much more expensive to build. You can't build them near private homes, only places like industrial parks or off motorways due to serious safety concerns. A hydrogen storage tank exploded at a hydrogen production facility recently and it levelled an area the size of half a football pitch!

Hydorgen is not a direct replacement for petrol/diesel stations.

Effects

bk wrote: »

No, hydrogen stations are much larger.

I think I'm just misremembering the stations used in a video review of the Hyundai hydrogen suv.

timsey tiger

I was joking earlier about house values, but planing objections would surely be off the charts for hydrogen stations. It is ingrained in us that hydrogen has extremely dangerous, that Hindenburg photo.

Could the miari be banned from the port tunnel or other tunnels? All gas powered cars are banned from the channel tunnel.

Notwithstanding all the problems, hydrogen station roll out has one big advantage over charging stations. Hydrogen stations would not have to compete with home charging. Hydrogen car drivers have no choice.

bk

Effects wrote: »

I think I'm just misremembering the stations used in a video review of the Hyundai hydrogen suv.

Keep in mind, that above ground, the pump looks similar to an ICE pump, most of the storage tanks and equipment is below ground.

Effects

It was this video I had watched last year:

bk

So I just found why Mad_Lad thinks there will be 80 Hydrogen refilling stations, by 2030. This article has the details:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/innovation/plan-for-80-hydrogen-fuel-stations-for-ireland-by-2030-1.4026492

Basically it is just a proposal by a consortium of business who want to push Hydrogen. There is currently no government support for this.

They say that the government will need to subsidised this by €1.5m to €2m per station! Which BTW is on the low side, they cost $2m to $3m in the US. So you are talking at least €160million for 80 stations. How many fast chargers could you build for that?

And the main target for this is fleet operators they say, CIE, DB, trucking companies, etc. Though they would also allow cars to use it, but not the main target.

Problem is fleet operators are already choosing EV. NTA have announced they are buying 600 plugin hybrid EV buses for DB/BE over the next 6 years and plan to go full EV after that. An Post have already been rolling out EV vans.

It all seems rather unlikely to me.

I'm not saying that there won't be any hydrogen vehicles at all, probably some buses and trucks will go Hydrogen, but I suspect there will be very few hydrogen powered cars. EV just makes far more sense.

I never said I thought there'll be 80 Hydrogen stations in Ireland by 2020.

krissovo

My company based in California had a deal with Toyota 18 months ago to supply the Mirai as local run arounds for visitors and business trips so I got to use one when I was over a handful of times. The car was ok but refueling was challenging at times, hydrogen has its own issues and most of the "hydrogen highway" in California is served by tanks that only store ~120kg of hydrogen so they have apps similar to EV's to show the capacities as a car will take 4 to 5kg to fuel up. Also when the tanks get low around 50% then they recharge the pressure after each fill so the wait time is progressively longer and the time to fill.

The have switched to EV now and use Tesla's, the Mirai needs some soul but as a car its ok. Similar characteristics to a EV with the torque so could have some fun factor if developed that way.

bk

Sure, but that video just shows the pump. It doesn't show all the storage and equipment that goes with it. This is what a typical one looks like. This is a picture of the station that caught fire in Norway:



The building is where all the storage and equipment is, the pumps are out front and look normal.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

I never said I thought there'll be 80 Hydrogen stations in Ireland by 2020.

Yea, you did!

80 Hydrogen fuel stations planed in Ireland by 2030.

So no need for batteries or very little.

That statement makes it sound like its a done deal. You should have put more context around it.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

I never said I thought there'll be 80 Hydrogen stations in Ireland by 2020.

Err.. I didn't say you said 2020, I said that you said that there would be 80 by 2030. Which you said exactly this in your first post!:

Deleted User wrote: »

80 Hydrogen fuel stations planed in Ireland by 2030.

bk

bk wrote: »

Err.. I didn't say you said 2020, I said that you said that there would be 80 by 2030. Which you said exactly this in your first post!:

Typo, but the fact remains, I linked to the article, I didn't suggest there would be 80 Hydrogen stations by 2030.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

Typo, but the fact remains, I linked to the article, I didn't suggest there would be 80 Hydrogen stations by 2030.

I'm confused, that is clearly exactly what you suggested!

Nor did you link to any article about the suggested 80 stations in Ireland, I linked to the article!

Mickeroo

Deleted User wrote: »

Typo, but the fact remains, I linked to the article, I didn't suggest there would be 80 Hydrogen stations by 2030.

You said they were planned, which isn't true either it seems :pac:

bk

krissovo wrote: »

hydrogen has its own issues and most of the "hydrogen highway" in California is served by tanks that only store ~120kg of hydrogen so they have apps similar to EV's to show the capacities as a car will take 4 to 5kg to fuel up.

Which is only 24 to 30 cars per day! A petrol station would do that number of cars in one hour.

Of course supercharging is almost as slow. But the difference is the at home charging or at work charging. I bet your work place office has chargers for those Tesla's they now have, right.

Kramer

bk wrote: »

So you are talking at least €160million for 80 stations. How many fast chargers could you build for that?

I reckon if you gave it to Ecars, we'd get probably 2 fast chargers & a few AC charge points, in 2026 .

Kramer

Gees Mad_Lad, it's a pile-on :eek:
I guess you now know how Thierry/Mike felt - not seen him for ages either .

I think there will be a place for hydrogen going forward, not sure if it'll be in passenger cars though.

krissovo

bk wrote: »

They say that the government will need to subsidised this by €1.5m to €2m per station! Which BTW is on the low side, they cost $2m to $3m in the US. So you are talking at least €160million for 80 stations. How many fast chargers could you build for that?

Some of your costs are taking the high estimates, the majority of the US filling stations are not much more than large tanks with a compressor & pumps attached. I assume you have factored local refineries at the stations rather than just storage tanks which are cheaper. Also in the US they have standard stations which are lower pressure that may cause issues filling & re-filling issues but they also have "superior" units which are a high pressure design that does not have the issue. You could liken the different stations to fast, rapid and high speed EV chargers.

bk

In fairness to Mad_Lad, his enthusiasm and optimism is great.

When I first heard about FCV's I thought the same as him, a simple, drop in replacement for petrol/Diesel. But when you look into the details of it, it turns out to be extremely more difficult, complex and expensive then it first looks. Once you get into the detail of it all, it looks to be far poorer then EV's IMO. I agree that it probably has a place in some big trucks and buses, but not in cars.

Also I agree with Mad_Lad's that the situation with the EV charging network isn't good and it needs to be sorted fast. But spending 100's of millions on Hydrogen stations isn't the solution IMO. It just distracts with the real solution, forcing the government to get the finger out and hurry up the ESB on it.

bk

krissovo wrote: »

Some of your costs are taking the high estimates, the majority of the US filling stations are not much more than large tanks with a compressor & pumps attached.

The €1.5m to 2m per station cost I quoted actually comes from the Irish consortium looking to build these stations in Ireland! As such, if anything, I'd expect it to be on the low side.

Third_Echelon

I don't think the new concept looks are that great?! Is it just me?!

Looks a bit like a Mazda 6 or something like that. Mazda 6 is a nice car, don't get me wrong, but i don't think i'd be running out to buy a Miari based on the looks. Current model, not great looking. Future model, looks OK i suppose. All relative i suppose if the first model is considered ugly

zilog_jones

Typo in the thread title: It should be "Mirai"

Deleted User wrote: »

Toyota certainly has 0 intentions in BEV probably because they invested so much in Fuel cells.

• Toyota Ultra-Compact BEV: On sale in Japan this year
• Lexus UX 300e: 2021 in Europe

Certainly

zilog_jones

zilog_jones wrote: »

Typo in the thread title: It should be "Mirai"

• Toyota Ultra-Compact BEV: On sale in Japan this year
• Lexus UX 300e: 2021 in Europe

Certainly

How much will the Lexus cost ? :pac:

The Toyota ultra compact is an ultra joke.

Interesting article.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cells-stupid-but-tech-may-threaten-tesla.html

zilog_jones

Deleted User wrote: »

The Toyota ultra compact is an ultra joke.

Due to Japan's ageing population and other factors, there is a lot of interest in small low-speed vehicles like this. Regardless, it proves your "0 intentions in BEV" statement is false. It is not zero, whatever it is.

No confirmed price on the Lexus.

serfboard

Deleted User wrote: »

Interesting article.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cells-stupid-but-tech-may-threaten-tesla.html

Interesting in that, one, it's a year old and there has been a lot of EV developments in the meantime and two, it's full of quotes by vested interests talking about what "should" and "could" happen.

Fiat Chrysler does not have a fuel cell vehicle on sale in the U.S., but for 15 years it has supported research led by Professor David Antonelli, the chair of physical chemistry at Lancaster University in the U.K., that could bring costs down for the technology. His team is working with a material that enables fuel tanks to be smaller, cheaper and more energy-dense than existing hydrogen fuel technologies as well as battery-powered vehicles.

"The cost of manufacturing our material is so low, and the energy density it can store is so much higher than a lithium-ion battery, that we could see hydrogen fuel cell systems that cost four times less than lithium-ion batteries, as well as providing a much longer range," said Antonelli. The technology has been licensed to a for-profit company called Kubagen, set up by Antonelli.

Hydrogen is the future, says man who will make a lot of money if that is the case.

Ford aren't buying it, though:

"With a steadily growing share of renewable energies, hydrogen fuel cells could play a role in the future," said a Ford spokesman. "In terms of a widespread market launch, however, the battery is currently in a superior position to the fuel cell – not least because of the cost situation and the available infrastructure. Our work will continue to focus on electrification as we monitor hydrogen's progress. We have no current plans to offer hydrogen fuel cell vehicles."

The only reason Toyota are pushing this is because they are behind on EV development, and they've (wrongly) spent a lot of money developing Hydrogen vehicles and are reluctant to let it go.

Apart from possible use in trucks (and I wouldn't even be sure about that), Hydrogen vehicles have no future. There are even battery-electric trains now, for God's sake.

Musk must be laughing all the way to the stock exchange when he reads articles like this.

highdef

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Don’t know about the current Prius but my old Prius MK II could do 840 kms on 45 litres.

Wow, I'd always assumed they got great fuel economy. I've a 1.5 diesel Focus and get over 1,000 km from 50 litres which is even better than a Prius!

highdef

highdef wrote: »

Wow, I'd always assumed they got great fuel economy. I've a 1.5 diesel Focus and get over 1,000 km from 50 litres which is even better than a Prius!

For a petrol Automatic with 2004 technology, yes it is/was good.

Today's Prius might be able to do much better, I don't know I have no experience with them.

zilog_jones

The maximum capacity of the fuel tank is 45 litres, I doubt you ran it dry so must have used less fuel than that to go that distance...

A Gen 4 Prius (2016 onward) will easily do 4.5 l/100km