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Picard 1x05 - "Stardust City Rag" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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    #122
    pah
    Registered Users Posts: 3,397 ✭✭✭pah


    seamus wrote: »
    I believe the canon is that synthehol for humans is a bit like cigarettes; there's a brief euphoria and general good feeling, but it doesn't last long and can be easily nullified by a hypospray if necessary.

    It would make sense in Seven's case if her hybrid physiology could still handle alcohol like a human, but not synthehol.

    There have been so many little nuggets of canon in this series, that I'd be surprised if the bourbon bit wasn't an intentional nod to Seven's problem with synthehol.

    Do you honestly believe the writers on this show give 2 sh1ts about canon?


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    #123
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,644 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Unfortunately I think you are right about some disregard for Canon but obviously they can't disregard it all.


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    #124
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Bobtheman wrote: »
    Unfortunately I think you are right about some disregard for Canon but obviously they can't disregard it all.

    Canon is now the Netflix episode guide :pac:

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #125
    FGR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭FGR


    pah wrote: »
    Do you honestly believe the writers on this show give 2 sh1ts about canon?

    The writers have to print their scripts on something afterall :pac: !

    I know there's a lot of research that has to be done as regards canon but why not get a group of pure Trek-lovers in to do that job? Many would do it for very little money for the experience alone!

    I do enjoy the nod to canon - but it's disappointing when it's blatantly ignored on other occasions.

    Vulcans are meant to be significantly stronger than humans, Klingons the same yet humans often overpower them, the colour of blood on some species, the whole 'can't go to warp in a solar system' thing in DS9, the whole Warp 10 evolution thing (don't get me started..) etc..


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    #126
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Did they do 7’s character a bit of a disservice , why would be relegated to schlepping around the outer rim of the Federation, she would have had fairly unique knowledge of the Borg , wouldn’t she naturally have ended up working for Star Fleet or some research area?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #127
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,726 ✭✭✭Evade


    Was she a ranger before Icheb was killed? Moving to the fringes and engaging in a self destructive occupation isn't unheard of when you lose a family member.


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    #128
    pah
    Registered Users Posts: 3,397 ✭✭✭pah


    silverharp wrote: »
    Did they do 7’s character a bit of a disservice

    Yes. But hey, it's edgy and dark.

    Picard is the one being done a disservice here IMO.

    His character as we knew him and as we left him after TNG and the movies would never have walked away from something that he truly believed in. No matter what small impact he could have made by himself outside of Starfleet and the federation he would have continued the evacuation in some shape or form.

    If he had truly changed then it should be explained better as that type of core values shift has not been earned by this show through the mere passage of time. It's lazy as fuçk.

    The world has changed the federation has changed, Picard has changed. FINE Show us how and why and I'll probably buy into it. If you tell me it's "just because" then fuçk off writers.


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    #129
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Very confusing having Dana troy come back as a different character. I only copped they were different characters when Picard didn't recognise her.


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    #130
    Rawr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭Rawr


    FGR wrote: »
    I know there's a lot of research that has to be done as regards canon but why not get a group of pure Trek-lovers in to do that job? Many would do it for very little money for the experience alone!

    I can't remember when, or too many details, but apparently the Discovery staff brought on some kind of Canon Expert, or essentially some kind of super-fan who knew a lot about the canon of Star Trek.

    I'm not sure if that was just some kind of lie designed to win over canon purists to Discovery, or that they had actually brought on such an expert...and then ignored them....


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    #131
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Rawr wrote: »
    I can't remember when, or too many details, but apparently the Discovery staff brought on some kind of Canon Expert, or essentially some kind of super-fan who knew a lot about the canon of Star Trek.

    I'm not sure if that was just some kind of lie designed to win over canon purists to Discovery, or that they had actually brought on such an expert...and then ignored them....

    I find that difficult to believe.


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    #132
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    At the risk of opening the can-o-worms, has there really been that much canon violation? Like, much more than what we should be used to form the TNG->DS9->Voy->Movies run?

    Also things can just change over the course of nearly 20 years.

    And the money/no-money thing has always been wishy-washy.


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    #133
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Goodshape wrote: »
    At the risk of opening the can-o-worms, has there really been that much canon violation? Like, much more than what we should be used to form the TNG->DS9->Voy->Movies run?

    Also things can just change over the course of nearly 20 years.

    And the money/no-money thing has always been wishy-washy.

    Picard acting out of character is my biggest criticism.


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    #134
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,726 ✭✭✭Evade


    Picard, so far, is better than STD on the canon front. There are some instances of what seems laziness or not caring like Romulan disruptors not being green, at least the newer ones. Some instances of just weird like having a super secret secret police on top of the Tal Shiar. I'm not sure if the story would have been any different if the Tal Shiar were the anti AI group (this attitude is canon bending too) and Bean Uí Romuláin was a former member of the Romulan fleet with some inside knowledge of the Tal Shiar. In fact they could have made her Dizzy Flores from Nemesis. Other things like Federation Xenophobia are plausible, just badly executed.


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    #135
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Picard acting out of character is my biggest criticism.

    It does seem like Patick Stewart has taken over to a large extent. Not sure that counts as breaking canon though. Again, it's been 20 years. People can change.

    I find it difficult because 20 years ago, I "knew" Picard much more than I knew P.Stew. Now that's kinda been flipped. It's difficult to see this older Picard and not be reminded of friendly old Patrick Stewart having a laugh on Graham Norton, or posting Twitter selfies with his BFF Ian McKellen.

    But again, not really a canon issue. And Picard changed plenty between the series and the movies too. Arguably he changed a lot from Encounter at Farpoint to All Good Things..., only we got to see it happening that time.


    Could you imagine if you met a character like Worf, Riker, or Data just once in Encounter at Farpoint, then they popped up again in Season 7? Huge difference in how those characters were portrayed. And it's not even like TNG cared much about character progression.


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    #136
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Picard is a different man, I think it's a fair observation & it's hard to ignore as the series has unfolded, but for me the simple reduction I've made to get around that difference has boiled down to "he's old, and riddled with regret of friendships unnourished, or decisions made".

    When you think about it, TNG ended with a bittersweet moment really: of a man realising he spent years ignoring friends right there in front of him; then only a few years later from that, he watched one of those friends - whom he admired a great deal anyway - die in a moment of sacrifice. If there's such a thing as Survivor's Guilt, then surely there's an equivalent breakdown had over someone living due to the sacrifice of another. And a friend at that. As a memorial, I can see someone living in the past, indulging in remembering a friendship stronger than it was, if only for yourself.

    Sure, none of this is on-screen and there's definitely minus points towards the writers for not (yet?) putting these subtleties forward as a motivating factor in the personality change, but to my mind, we're watching a nonagenarian grasping at some sense of closure for years wasted. What's the OAP equivalent of a mid-life crisis? End-Of-Life crisis?


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    #137
    pah
    Registered Users Posts: 3,397 ✭✭✭pah


    pixelburp wrote: »
    .

    Sure, none of this is on-screen and there's definitely minus points towards the writers for not (yet?) putting these subtleties forward as a motivating factor in the personality change, but to my mind, we're watching a nonagenarian grasping at some sense of closure for years wasted. What's the OAP equivalent of a mid-life crisis? End-Of-Life crisis?

    They spend enough time writing pointless exposition, they could easily develop this a bit more.


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    #138
    Greyjoy
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Greyjoy


    pah wrote: »
    They spend enough time writing pointless exposition, they could easily develop this a bit more.

    From what I've heard on Trek podcasts seems like a lot of the explanation for Picard's change of character in the intervening years has been contained in the tie-in novel "Last Best Hope". But for my money that's a huge cop-out on the part of the tv show writers.


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    #139
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,644 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Picard is a different man, I think it's a fair observation & it's hard to ignore as the series has unfolded, but for me the simple reduction I've made to get around that difference has boiled down to "he's old, and riddled with regret of friendships unnourished, or decisions made".

    When you think about it, TNG ended with a bittersweet moment really: of a man realising he spent years ignoring friends right there in front of him; then only a few years later from that, he watched one of those friends - whom he admired a great deal anyway - die in a moment of sacrifice. If there's such a thing as Survivor's Guilt, then surely there's an equivalent breakdown had over someone living due to the sacrifice of another. And a friend at that. As a memorial, I can see someone living in the past, indulging in remembering a friendship stronger than it was, if only for yourself.

    Sure, none of this is on-screen and there's definitely minus points towards the writers for not (yet?) putting these subtleties forward as a motivating factor in the personality change, but to my mind, we're watching a nonagenarian grasping at some sense of closure for years wasted. What's the OAP equivalent of a mid-life crisis? End-Of-Life crisis?

    Really brilliant post. Picard in TNG was in his 40s. This guy is 79. He has moved on. They can't spend forever on exposition. It's a short enough aeries. Plus they had the comics for those who didn't want to Wade through the book. No matter what you put out people will knock it


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    #140
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,726 ✭✭✭Evade


    Bobtheman wrote: »
    Really brilliant post. Picard in TNG was in his 40s. This guy is 79. He has moved on. They can't spend forever on exposition. It's a short enough aeries. Plus they had the comics for those who didn't want to Wade through the book. No matter what you put out people will knock it
    Picard was 59 in Encounter at Farpoint and is 94 in Picard.


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    #141
    Demonique
    Registered Users Posts: 2,803 ✭✭✭Demonique


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/112608642#Comment_112608642

    Manu wasnt approached to play Icheb, he had no idea Icheb was going to be killed off and flipped out on twitter when the episode aired

    As soon as Picard was announced he started campaigning for Icheb to be on the show

    The reason Icheb was killed off was because when Discovery's Anthony Rapp (who plays Paul Stamets) came forward about being molested by Kevin Spacey as a teen Manu attacked him on twitter, he called him a whiner and said he would have fcuked Spacey if he'd been in Rapp's position

    He's also been creepy about Jeri Ryan on stage at conventions

    The general consensus is that Icheb wouldnt have been in Picard at all if Manu hadnt been begging to be on the show

    He was still whining about Icheb being killed off 2 years later and started campaigning to be on Prodigy instead



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