Picard 1x05 - "Stardust City Rag" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

Spear

Once again a new thread since the episode and its spoiler are out and about.

This time at least the ads didn't give away the twists, especially given that that must be one of the darkest episodes of Trek ever.

Agent Coulson

Seven was kick ass.

I would watch a limited series of Seven and her Rangers.


Just a pity they couldn't/didn't use the two original actors for the return roles.

AMKC

That was the best episode yet. What a Gruesome start to it. Will have to watch it again.

silverharp

special effects a la hostel?

ilovesmybrick

AMKC wrote: »

That was the best episode yet. What a Gruesome start to it. Will have to watch it again.

Yeah, that was some cold open! And although I hated Icheb as a character it was a nice little cameo

ilovesmybrick

Also I liked the quick Quark reference!

velo.2010

Mr Mot's Hair Emporium!

Had to laugh at that.

fritzelly

Good episode
What was she saying at the end, couldn't quite make it out

IvySlayer

Never would I have imagined Picard with an eyepatch doing a french pirate accent

Slydice

Oh Aggie! What at all have they shown her? Hrmmm.. I wonder is Janeway involved in this somehow. She damn well hated the Borg in the future.

Clear something is going on between Raffi and Picard.. I'm getting the feeling they were intimate not just on the same ship.

Seven seven seven.. jeez that was harsh what happened to Icheb. Even harder to watch considering he was a kid last time I saw him.

Last thought was about how Bjayzl (actress Necar Zadegan) was the spit of a younger Deanna Troi

fritzelly

Slydice wrote: »

Last thought was about how Bjayzl (actress Necar Zadegan) was the spit of a younger Deanna Troi

Thought that too, thinking damn she's looking good for her age

Slydice

Ooooh that little bit of Voyager theme song at the end! Can't say I didn't want more!

Goodshape

That was pretty great!

Really solid episode. Wish everyone could stay a little longer, though. Seven, Maddox, and Frakes as director!

And pity they couldn't get the same actor for Maddox, too! Maybe that's why he didn't stick around. Who knows. Feels like a wasted namedrop now. Why'd they mention him at all.

Decent little twist with yer one the doctor though. Didn't see that coming.

pah

Picard accent was a bit ridiculous considering he's french FFS but a much improved episode IMO

Great episode. The best so far. My only criticism is that this should have been episode 2. It should have been a double(90 minute) episode 1, ending with 7 of 9 being beamed aboard and this should have been episode 2. Not half way into the season.

The amount of lost, wasted time so far has been disappointing.

youcancallmeal

I didn't really understand the end and what was being said between Maddox and Agnes?

fritzelly

Same for me and asked earlier - something they shouldn't know, she's sorry she knows...?

Guessing they shouldn't know there is an android running around

Spear

fritzelly wrote: »

Same for me and asked earlier - something they shouldn't know, she's sorry she knows...?

Guessing they shouldn't know there is an android running around

"One more thing to atone for"
"I wish you knew what I know".
"I wish I didn't know what I know"
"I wish they hadn't shown me".

Which would suggest that it's regarding the synths, since it's the only thing they're responsible for and could be guilty about. Or Oh just flat out lied to her to poison her against the others as a trojan horse.

Stark

Well that opening scene should give the sensitive souls who complained about the decapitation scene last week something to talk about.

Charlie-Bravo

I see what you mean Stark. Didn't want to look, but couldn't help getting an eyeful.

Evade

All in all that was a pretty good outing, things are finally getting going. I wasn't a fan of the whole heist style infiltration bit, it was too ludicrous and I don't really care about Rafi's family problems.

Setting up Mars as a false flag that killed all those people might be a bit hard to believe. Sure there have been assassinations and sabotage but destroying a planet is going a little far.

Did anyone else catch Jurati's smirk as she was killing Madox, that was pure Lore.

No Artifact scenes this week.

Random episode thoughts

• Icheb?
• Medical technology seems to have regressed a lot
• In the abdomen? That'll be painful
• She looks a lot like Deanna
• Can Seven hold her liquor yet?
• Picard is one to talk about taking the law into their own hands
• You'd think Voyager would be kind of famous
• So she's Madox's daughter?
• Or not, unless they're Romulans too
• La Sirena needs and adblock
• Vajazzle is a bad name
• Mr Mot's Hair Emporium
• Those disguises are dire
• It sounds like a nightclub from 2002
• The whole heist movie thing isn't really working
• Transporters practically run themselves
• Fingers crossed Raffi's gone for good
• Space abortion clinic
• Mars was an inside job
• Guns making noise as soon as you touch them needs to stop
• The naive monk thing is getting old fast
• Science officers don't wear red
• What was that handoff?
• A few days isn't the same as nearly half your life
• Does the entire galaxy use white transporters now?
• You can't really blame Seven for vapourising her
• Jurati is definitely a double agent
• Romulans' still have a space?
• She's Lore, that smirk tick

fritzelly

She's Lore, that smirk tick

Didn't make that connection but definitely thought android

FutureGuy

What did Maddox mean when he said “myself and Soong had you”

Is that Data? Can’t be anyone else really!

Evade

FutureGuy wrote: »

What did Maddox mean when he said “myself and Soong had you”

Is that Data? Can’t be anyone else really!

He said "Soong and I, and you. Your contribution was essential"

The_Wanderer

That episode certainly ramped up several notches.

As I suspected the Good Doctor is a double agent or has been replaced.

It just got a lot more interesting. I'll need to watch it again as missed a few bits. Where was the Mr. Mot sign?

Spear

The_Wanderer wrote: »

That episode certainly ramped up several notches.

As I suspected the Good Doctor is a double agent or has been replaced.

It just got a lot more interesting. I'll need to watch it again as missed a few bits. Where was the Mr. Mot sign?

At 15:40 or so, when the camera zooms down to Freecloud.

Nigel Fairservice

I was sad to see Icheb go the way he did.

AllForIt

Well that was WAY better, and a complete departure from the style of all previous episodes.

What stood out for me was the performance of Jeri Ryan. How ironic. I always thought she was a bit too stiff in Voyager, and you could put that down to Borg implants, but my golly she out acted everyone else on the series so far.

Let's face it -Picard, I mean JL, I mean Jean Luc, I mean Xavier, I mean Patrick Stewart, phew, looks like he has his lines held in front of him by a best-boy and is just reading them off as if it's the first time he's seen them. As if noting was asked of him to do the show, only turn up.

The only think I would criticize is this family problem Rafi has. Why does every drama have to involve some kind of family discord. Trek was never about this and in fact gave relief from it.

ilovesmybrick

Spear wrote:

At 15:40 or so, when the camera zooms down to Freecloud.

Just above the sign for Quarks! I'd say there was a lot hidden in that panorama

A minute into that and I’m done with the series. They had to reduce it to gore like every two-bit show around that has nothing else going for it.

ilovesmybrick

ReginaldSmythV wrote:

A minute into that and I’m done with the series. They had to reduce it to gore like every two-bit show around that has nothing else going for it.

Without that scene it makes it far more difficult to justify or empathise with Sevens actions later in the episode. Gory, but it serves an important purpose for the episodes plot.

tromtipp

I was very glad I'd picked up a spoiler on that. I skipped the first four minutes or so, and still found it traumatic - I always liked poor Icheb, treated so cynically by his parents. Good episode there - hope Seven comes back, as ever Ryan outshines everyone else, and yet draws the best out of them.

Totally on board with the cyberAgnes theory - just wonder is she Data or Lore?

TheIrishGrover

I really enjoyed that episode. Thought it was a vast improvement over the last couple.
The bet with Icheb was heartbreaking and brilliantly done. I remember thinking: "After all that kid has been through, Assimilation, loss of family.... spending so much time on Voyager ( ), working his way through Starfleet. Only for some a$$hole to treat him in such a way. You can totally empathise with Seven and her casual violence at the end.

I'm warming to Elf-Rom very quickly. I was hoping that he wasn't going to be a one-note poor-man's G'kar/Worf and he definitely isn't. He's a kid with combat and mental training who is still leaving home for the first time.

Jeri Ryan was simply fantastic.

I mist admit, I thought Agnes was really our "in" to the series. For people to dump info on for those who haven't seen previous series. Didn't twig her until we were supposed to (The instant the camera flashed to her the first time towards the end).

Yeah, her mental-state/anxiety is definitely part of her story. Deffo Agnesynth. Would explain all her "quirky" mannerisms. Her arm thumping with Rios, reaction to advert holo, general slightly hyper/annoying mannerisms. (The arm thumping and holo scenes annoyed me initially but at the end you were thinking: Oooooooohhhhhhhh. She's only about 7 or something)

So yeah, great episode. My usual:

the Good

• Icheb scene at the start. Heartbreaking.
• Jeri Ryan throughout the episode. Fantastic. Would like to see her in the show again but very sparingly. (Similar amount of time next season maybe)
• Elf-Rom. Character coming along nicely: "How come I didn't get one"
• Captain PimpRios
• Agnes: "You're killing it"
• Use of Voyager's music as Seven transports back to wreak havok.

The Bad

• For the love of God... I know, was cool to see Seven blazing away with two guns but c'mon, on ALL the adverts?
• Only minor thing: The whole "Oh yeah, I forgot he was a Borg" exposition. I know, some people will be coming into this fresh but it was a bit on the nose.

The Meh

• Raffi still in the show. I suppose we never really expected her to leave. At leave she dialed back the whole JL to once I think and even called him Admiral Picard.

seamus

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

A minute into that and I’m done with the series. They had to reduce it to gore like every two-bit show around that has nothing else going for it.

It's not gratuitous and it's very much necessary, that scene (and the brutality of it) is arguably the lynchpin of most of the episode. Give it another go.

I enjoyed that. There are some online enclaves who are hating this, and I get it. I watched a DS9 episode after, and the tone is entirely different. There's no sterile optimism, the lighting is darker, the characters are more "normal" and there's more natural dialogue.

Arguably this series is the darker Trek that Voyager really should have been.

Jeri Ryan as ever, stole the show. I have no doubt she'll be back another couple of times. But if they're looking at more Trek shows, then I'd watch the **** out of a show about Seven and the Rangers.

What Seven did at the end, could be a metaphor for the entire series. Gone are the last-minute redemptions, the change of heart after some epic speech on humanity by Janeway. She did what in any previous Trek series would be considered a brutal murder, and she has shrugged it off as a necessary evil.

Also somewhat "nice" to see that they're literally killing off old characters. Bring them in to link the past to the present, and then discard them rather than making them part of the regular cast. This in effect allows them to "reboot" Trek post-Voyager without ruining continuity.

I still find it a bit overwritten in some points, but it's definitely finding its feet. We've moved from being all set up, to starting to move the storyline on.

Dunno what the story is with Agnes. Either she has been replaced, or she was lying to Picard when they first met. I suspect Agnes is in fact a synth herself (and she knows it) and was hoping that Picard would just go away.

Cookie_Monster

I really don't get all the love for this episode. I thought it was by far the worst so far. It's a convoluted mess of nothing really happening that makes any reasonable sense.

ilovesmybrick

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I really don't get all the love for this episode. I thought it was by far the worst so far. It's a convoluted mess of nothing really happening that makes any reasonable sense.

I'm not sure what episode you were watching, but an awful lot happened in that episode to drive the story in the second half of the season.

They found Maddox (& lost Maddox), learned where Soji is and are now moving to the cube linking the two stories together, we find out there is still Romulan Space, the Federation completely abandoned the Neutral Zone area, the Dr. outed herself (to the audience) as having ulterior motives, a bit of movement on what happened to Raffi after she left Starfleet, we see that there's a black market for freed Borg parts, are reintroduced to Seven and get some backstory on her over the past twenty years, and Icheb is reintroduced and then offed and we see that over the years Seven developed a deep familial bond with him.

And not levelling this at you directly, but I'll be stunned if someone also doesn't have next weeks as worst so far, or the following week etc. etc!

Cookie_Monster

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

I'm not sure what episode you were watching, but an awful lot happened in that episode to drive the story in the second half of the season.

They found Maddox (& lost Maddox), learned where Soji is and are now moving to the cube linking the two stories together, we find out there is still Romulan Space, the Federation completely abandoned the Neutral Zone area, the Dr. outed herself (to the audience) as having ulterior motives, a bit of movement on what happened to Raffi after she left Starfleet, we see that there's a black market for freed Borg parts, are reintroduced to Seven and get some backstory on her over the past twenty years, and Icheb is reintroduced and then offed and we see that over the years Seven developed a deep familial bond with him.

And not levelling this at you directly, but I'll be stunned if someone also doesn't have next weeks as worst so far, or the following week etc. etc!

Let's find and kill 2, probably 3*, characters without any real reason other than heartstrings. Let's ruin girati as just some romulan stooge or whatever, lets give rafi some stupid nonsense go nowhere extra bit, let have Picard play the ridiculous French stereotype.

*I reckon it's heavily implied seven would be killed.

Also it went so generic future with stupid ads everwhere etc that is so detracting from what star trek should be. And yes i get it portraying a star fleet perfect world etc when they are "normal" people, but still its just horrifically cliche. This is the first episode where it's felt like any other generic crap future sci-fi show and it's so disappointing. I have really enjoyed it so far but this episode was just too far 😕

Edit: also the cube is common knowledge and everyone is cool with that????

ilovesmybrick

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Let's find and kill 2, probably 3*, characters without any real reason other than heartstrings. Let's ruin girati as just some romulan stooge or whatever, lets give rafi some stupid nonsense go nowhere extra bit, let have Picard play the ridiculous French stereotype.

*I reckon it's heavily implied seven would be killed.

Also it went so generic future with stupid ads everwhere etc that is so detracting from what star trek should be. And yes i get it portraying a star fleet perfect world etc when they are "normal" people, but still its just horrifically cliche. This is the first episode where it's felt like any other generic crap future sci-fi show and it's so disappointing. I have really enjoyed it so far but this episode was just too far ��

Edit: also the cube is common knowledge and everyone is cool with that????

I'd disagree that their deaths were just to tug heartstrings (and in fairness, who actually liked Maddox?)

Icheb died to indicate why Seven has developed into the character we see, as well as to indicate the lawlessness of the region. Maddox died to indicate how much whatever truth the Dr. was told affected her, and how important it seems to her now that all knowledge of synthetic life is destroyed. Anyway, it was heavlily implied from the second episode that there was something off about her. And there's no way Seven died. Not only did we see her slip away the pattern enhancer, she also literally gave Picard a calling card, which is a Chekov's gun if ever there was one.

I'm not sure what the issue is with the cube being common knowledge? We have seen that researchers from the Federation go there, and that the Romulans are using harvested technology to support themselves. While the Federation might think that even a dead cube is dangerous, what do you think they'll do, swoop in and blow it up in Romulan space?

Also it's nice to see something that isn't a perfect Federation, because times have moved on and they're literally not in the Federation, they're in a lawless part of space. And speaking about stupid ads...

So far I think the series has been great. I've a few quibbles with it, and it's not the Trek I expected or thought I wanted, which is fantastic. When DS9 came out I was dead set against Trek on a station, and based on the initial episodes I proved myself right. Turns out it was the best of all Trek series so far. Despite this utter garbage

Cookie_Monster

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

I'm not sure what the issue is with the cube being common knowledge? We have seen that researchers from the Federation go there, and that the Romulans are using harvested technology to support themselves. While the Federation might think that even a dead cube is dangerous, what do you think they'll do, swoop in and blow it up in Romulan space?

Seriously?
I thought in the first few episodes it was supposed to be super secret. Now its clear its common knowledge.You honestly think that if it is common knowledge that the Romulans have a cube every other power would be ok with it? They are a broken former superpower that any other (Fed, Klingon, Gorn, Tholians etc) would walk over, yet we're supposed to believe everyone is cool to just let them at it?
Not a chance, there is no way a broken civ could sustain that especially if it is common knowledge. As much as the Fed may be decent about it the Klingons would just annihilate them without any hesitation.

ilovesmybrick

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Seriously?
I thought in the first few episodes it was supposed to be super secret. Now its clear its common knowledge.You honestly think that if it is common knowledge that the Romulans have a cube every other power would be ok with it? They are a broken former superpower that any other (Fed, Klingon, Gorn, Tholians etc) would walk over, yet we're supposed to believe everyone is cool to just let them at it?
Not a chance, there is no way a broken civ could sustain that especially if it is common knowledge. As much as the Fed may be decent about it the Klingons would just annihilate them without any hesitation.

In the second episode we see multiple non-Romulans on the artifact, and are introduced to researchers being brought in as guests of the institute. So from the outset we knew it wasn't super secret. Maybe not broadly common knowledge, but at least common enough that humans and trills don't appear to be considered particularly unusual to see there.

As to why other powers don't intervene, we have no idea what the strength is of the remains of the Romulan empire, or even what the relative strength of the other powers is. The Klingons would not necessarily swoop in and attack if it was something that cold jeopardise their alliance with the Federation. Or maybe they have but the artifact is out of reach or too heavily protected. I'm not saying that other powers are ok with it, but not being ok with it does not need to mean launching an assault on the Romulan Free State (whatever that may be, and however big it may be). And we don't know what relative benefit they gain fro the Romulan work there. The Romulans did provide the Klingons with their initial cloaking devices, who knows what they may be getting now.

_Kaiser_

Watching now so my immediate random thoughts.. .

- MORE flashbacks
- This is graphic. Not exactly family friendly
- Icheb! Ah FFS
- Freecloud is a ridiculous name for a planet
- More lens flare
- Dark gritty Discovery tones... Check! *sigh*

... And this is just the pre-title scenes. Will post more afterwards

Goodshape

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

... And this is just the pre-title scenes. Will post more afterwards

Or maybe put the notebook away, relax a little, and actually watch the TV show?

Who knows, you might accidentally enjoy yourself.

Stark

This episode reminded me very much of that "bootleg" version of Power Rangers some guy did in the lead up to the 2016 movie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power/Rangers . (Maybe the "Rangers" they refer to are Power Rangers :eek:).

I've a feeling they're going for a "darkest before the dawn" take on things with the exceptionally gritty tone. We know at some point between now and the 26th century, the Federation and Starfleet return to former glory so there is hope.

Thargor

Who the feck thought those pathetic hologram adverts for Freecloud were a good idea? They would have been embarrassing on a nineties childrens tv show.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Watching now so my immediate random thoughts.. .

- MORE flashbacks
- This is graphic. Not exactly family friendly
- Icheb! Ah FFS
- Freecloud is a ridiculous name for a planet
- More lens flare
- Dark gritty Discovery tones... Check! *sigh*

... And this is just the pre-title scenes. Will post more afterwards

That was one I was thinking last week as a real low point - “Freecloud” seems very Star Wars. I didn’t see it in this one but I was guessing Mos Eisley straight away.
It all seems very early days rather than onward in time from TNG etc.

_Kaiser_

Goodshape wrote: »

Or maybe put the notebook away, relax a little, and actually watch the TV show?

Who knows, you might accidentally enjoy yourself.

Nope, unfortunately I didn't.

Seven was great. I was worried that she'd be "rebooted" in the same way as Picard, but she seemed to be where you'd expect after 20 years of exposure to humanity again, and the loss of Icheb would obviously have hardened her as they were very close on Voyager. The exchange between her and Picard before she beamed back down about that humanity was the most "classic Trek" sequence I've seen in this show.

But the graphic mutilation of Icheb, the stupid holo ads that look like they came from a Disney kids movie (ironic as there was nothing family friendly about this episode), Picard hamming it up as a badly-accented French space pirate, the Star wars feeling Casino.... all negatives.

The other problem here is that they have turned probably one of the top 2 iconic characters of the entire franchise into a weak, reactive, ineffective charicature of himself. We already saw the reactions to New Spock in Discovery/JJ's films, but this is PICARD they're messing with!

What they've unfortunately done here is create another Discovery - reliant on shock value, action sequences, bad lighting and a gritty feel to everything, and dark "complicated" characters to sell it. This has more in common with something like The Expanse than TNG/DS9/VOY

And that's fine... but then BE that show. Don't rely on nostalgia and familiarity of a massive franchise to hook an audience, and give them occasional glimpses of that past.. only to then "subvert expectations" by rebooting concepts, visuals and characters beyond recognition.

I really WAS hopeful for this show as earlier posts on this forum will show, and was very positive about the first episode, but there's very little recognisable here and many of the same issues with Discovery have been carried over

Sparko

I read an interesting comment about the Icheb scene that I didn't notice at the time - the doctor/butcher removing his Borg parts made a comment about not being able to find his cortical node, but he didn't have one because he donated it to Seven in an episode of Voyager in which her one was malfunctioning and she couldn't survive without one, whereas he could.

pixelburp

Not bothered to go back but did I hear a Quark namedrop during captain Rios' initial attempts at infiltration?

I liked the episode, definitely a bit more forward momentum to it, and the daft con act a nice reminder they hadn't completely forgotten how to have fun. Elnor came off well, after rough first impressions, and I even liked Raffi, if her own subplot was a little rushed.

Obviously 7of9 was the standout, her little chat with Picard about their shared Borg experience showed more characterisation on that front than the entirety of TNG ever bothered / managed. Methinks that won't be the first time Lacutus comes up either.

AMKC

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

I'd disagree that their deaths were just to tug heartstrings (and in fairness, who actually liked Maddox?) And there's no way Seven died. Not only did we see her slip away the pattern enhancer, she also literally gave Picard a calling card, which is a Chekov's gun if ever there was one.

Also it's nice to see something that isn't a perfect Federation, because times have moved on and they're literally not in the Federation.

So far I think the series has been great. I've a few quibbles with it, and it's not the Trek I expected or thought I wanted, which is fantastic. When DS9 came out I was dead set against Trek on a station, and based on the initial episodes I proved myself right. Turns out it was the best of all Trek series so far. Despite this.

I have to disagree with you. It might not be the best episode but it is a fun episode with a bit of humour in it.

Stark wrote: »

This episode reminded me very much of that "bootleg" version of Power Rangers some guy did in the lead up to the 2016 movie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power/Rangers . (Maybe the "Rangers" they refer to are Power Rangers :eek:).

I've a feeling they're going for a "darkest before the dawn" take on things with the exceptionally gritty tone. We know at some point between now and the 26th century, the Federation and Starfleet return to former glory so there is hope.

Actually the bit about Seven in charge of some rangers reminded me more of Babylon 5.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Nope, unfortunately I didn't.

Seven was great. I was worried that she'd be "rebooted" in the same way as Picard, but she seemed to be where you'd expect after 20 years of exposure to humanity again, and the loss of Icheb would obviously have hardened her as they were very close on Voyager. The exchange between her and Picard before she beamed back down about that humanity was the most "classic Trek" sequence I've seen in this show.

But the graphic mutilation of Icheb, the stupid holo ads that look like they came from a Disney kids movie (ironic as there was nothing family friendly about this episode), Picard hamming it up as a badly-accented French space pirate, the Star wars feeling Casino.... all negatives.

The other problem here is that they have turned probably one of the top 2 iconic characters of the entire franchise into a weak, reactive, ineffective charicature of himself. We already saw the reactions to New Spock in Discovery/JJ's films, but this is PICARD they're messing with!

What they've unfortunately done here is create another Discovery - reliant on shock value, action sequences, bad lighting and a gritty feel to everything, and dark "complicated" characters to sell it. This has more in common with something like The Expanse than TNG/DS9/VOY

And that's fine... but then BE that show. Don't rely on nostalgia and familiarity of a massive franchise to hook an audience, and give them occasional glimpses of that past.. only to then "subvert expectations" by rebooting concepts, visuals and characters beyond recognition.

I really WAS hopeful for this show as earlier posts on this forum will show, and was very positive about the first episode, but there's very little recognisable here and many of the same issues with Discovery have been carried over

To be fair this is far better than Discovery even if it is a lot darker. I agree some of the scenes look more like scenes from Lord of The Rings or Star Wars or even Babylon 5 but I am enjoying most of it. Last weeks episode was to me the worst so far and this one was the best.

SimonTemplar

Captain Rios badly needs to get AdBlock for his ship.

Stark

I wonder is the EMH going to rat Jurati out in the next episode. Though I'm sure she's smart enough to edit its memory.