Sexual harassment advert

Midster

I saw an advert last night for sexual harassment, in the advert, there was a girl at the bar of a pub, and a guy walked up and tried talking to her, while he was talking to her he gently put his hand on her back.

My question is, is this genuine sexual harassment?

I myself have been guilty of this move in the past, I did this because a long time ago, I heard from a phycologist on a program I watched once that it emphasises sincerity.

That together with nice words, and maybe an offer of a drink, flattery etc has ended up in some cases either the beginnings of a long term relationship, or a one nights stand between adults.

If this is genuine sexual harassment I need you to remember, if that woman was to report him to the police, he would end up with a criminal record for the rest of his life for doing nothing more than chancing his arm.

I understand this all depends on the personality of the woman, but how is a man to know. Especially a tipsy one who might have tried this move before and had no complaints from others.

BattleCorp

Midster wrote: »

I saw an advert last night for sexual harassment, in the advert, there was a girl at the bar of a pub, and a guy walked up and tried talking to her, while he was talking to her he gently put his hand on her back.

My question is, is this genuine sexual harassment?

Non-legal answer. It's only sexual harassment if it is unwanted and then not stopped immediately.

Gatling

Wasn't there a case recently involving the above scenario possibly in the UK ?

dennyk

I believe the legal term "sexual harassment" specifically refers to incidents in the workplace, so that probably wouldn't fall under that specific legal definition. It could potentially be the offence of assault or even sexual assault, depending on the circumstances, though it's probably unlikely such a case would be prosecuted solely on the basis of a single touch on the back.

Non-legally speaking, touching people uninvited isn't really appropriate behaviour. If it's someone you know or someone you have been talking with for a bit who seems receptive to such things, that's one thing, but if you're just going up to random strangers and putting your hand on their back by way of greeting, that's a bit over the line.

Peregrinus

It's not harrassment in the legal sense. This requires a course of action, so a single incident can never constitute harrassment.

But it certainly could be sexual harrassment in the creepy, inappropriate, lacks an awareness of personal boundaries sense.

4068ac1elhodqr

Gatling wrote: »

Wasn't there a case recently involving the above scenario possibly in the UK ?

Not uk, but in Egypt or somewhere backwards, a chap going through airport security got into big trouble for briefly patting the security chap's back (in a strictly non-sexy, 'cheers mate' type of way), right after the airport dude said he was clear to move past security. The result was he went straight to the jailhouse->

Similar thing happened in Dubai, when another chap briefly accidently touched another dudes hip to avoid spilling drinks as he passed by in crowded bar. again jailtime (3mths) ->

If this starts to happens in the West, just for chatting to a nice lady, may as well start up the weekly medieval stonings and lashings again.

Midster

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's not harrassment in the legal sense. This requires a course of action, so a single incident can never constitute harrassment.

But it certainly could be sexual harrassment in the creepy, inappropriate, lacks an awareness of personal boundaries sense.

Isn’t it a lack of knowledge of that individuals personal boundaries.
How does a single touch on the back for example constitute a sexual harassment claim

GM228

Peregrinus wrote: »

This requires a course of action, so a single incident can never constitute harrassment.

Standing away from the sexual aspect for a moment the courts have previously held that a single incident can amount to harassment (can't remember the case off hand but I'll dig it out).

Midster

dennyk wrote: »

I believe the legal term "sexual harassment" specifically refers to incidents in the workplace, so that probably wouldn't fall under that specific legal definition. It could potentially be the offence of assault or even sexual assault, depending on the circumstances, though it's probably unlikely such a case would be prosecuted solely on the basis of a single touch on the back.

Non-legally speaking, touching people uninvited isn't really appropriate behaviour. If it's someone you know or someone you have been talking with for a bit who seems receptive to such things, that's one thing, but if you're just going up to random strangers and putting your hand on their back by way of greeting, that's a bit over the line.

The problem I have with the laws these days is they seem to be specificity designed to prevent normal human interactions.
Yes some people are persistent.
But that’s how lots of people end up getting married. (My grandparents for example.)

And yes some people do cross the line.
But again for some people, that’s what they look forward to and is a turn on for them. (It shows guts.)

But also, most people are not easily offended.
And what some people would call immediately stopping might vary.

Nobody wants to look the idiot in a nightclub, or a pub, few drinks down you and you pluck up the courage to talk to someone, you gently touch that person on the back to get there attention, rather than shouting undignified loudly into that persons ear to get the same reaction.
4 out of the 4 times you’ve ever done this you’ve got a friendly reaction and although you might only have got 2 of there phone numbers, went well.

Now all of a sudden one person reacts in horror at you not only touching them in what you felt was a un harmful way, but is also reacting badly to everything your saying.

You want to back away, but you don’t want them to think your an arse so you then try to make a joke of the situation, perhaps then try to calm that person down.

Anyway, it all goes horribly wrong, you look like a complete arse in front of everyone, admit defeat and walk away confused.

Later the Garda walk into the bar, put you in cuffs and before you know it your now a criminal.

I mean honestly, should every single touch, every single attempt to chat up the pretty girl in the corner be so scary.

Or are we headed for a place we’re social gatherings of strangers can only ever happen online

Sexual harassment is not a criminal offence.
Sexual assault is.
Clearly the advertisment is giving advise about unwanted contact.

Midster

bubblypop wrote: »

Sexual harassment is not a criminal offence.
Sexual assault is.
Clearly the advertisment is giving advise about unwanted contact.

But this is exactly what I mean. How is a man for example supposed to know in advance who will perceive a gentle touch on the back for example (not the face, boobs, legs, or bum) as unwanted contact???
Most people are perfectly fine with it, especially in a social environment, but because of an extremely small number of people being so easily offended. That kind of interaction can now be seen as to risky for anyone to even think about.
And then this behaviour, which doesn’t and never has offended the masses then comes to a crashing stop, for everyone, forever.

ohnonotgmail

Midster wrote: »

But this is exactly what I mean. How is a man for example supposed to know in advance who will perceive a gentle touch on the back for example (not the face, boobs, legs, or bum) as unwanted contact???
Most people are perfectly fine with it, especially in a social environment, but because of an extremely small number of people being so easily offended. That kind of interaction can now be seen as to risky for anyone to even think about.
And then this behaviour, which doesn’t and never has offended the masses then comes to a crashing stop, for everyone, forever.

have there been any court cases where a man was charged with sexual assault for a gentle touch on the back?

Midster

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

have there been any court cases where a man was charged with sexual assault for a gentle touch on the back?

Do you ever hear about anything, unless it’s in the press??
Maybe there has been, maybe so far there hasn’t been.

But with the advert I clearly mentioned at the top of the page showing a situation like this, and classing it as sexual assault.

I would fully expect the numbers to rise steeply after now

Midster

Midster wrote: »

But this is exactly what I mean. How is a man for example supposed to know in advance who will perceive a gentle touch on the back for example (not the face, boobs, legs, or bum) as unwanted contact???
Most people are perfectly fine with it, especially in a social environment, but because of an extremely small number of people being so easily offended. That kind of interaction can now be seen as to risky for anyone to even think about.
And then this behaviour, which doesn’t and never has offended the masses then comes to a crashing stop, for everyone, forever.

What? .unwanted contact does not equal sexual assault.

Don't go round touching people you don't know & you shouldn't have any problems!

Midster

bubblypop wrote: »

What? .unwanted contact does not equal sexual assault.

Don't go round touching people you don't know & you shouldn't have any problems!

No!!! It’s not an assault, of any kind what so ever.

And it’s grossly unfair and unjust to even call gently placing a hand on anyone’s back while trying to engage them in friendly conversation an ASSAULT

ohnonotgmail

Midster wrote: »

Do you ever hear about anything, unless it’s in the press??
Maybe there has been, maybe so far there hasn’t been.

But with the advert I clearly mentioned at the top of the page showing a situation like this, and classing it as sexual assault.

I would fully expect the numbers to rise steeply after now

I haven't seen the ad so i only have your word what it says or depicts. And it if somebody was convicted for sexual assault for a single of act of touching somebody on the back i'm sure it would make the papers.

Midster

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I haven't seen the ad so i only have your word what it says or depicts. And it if somebody was convicted for sexual assault for a single of act of touching somebody on the back i'm sure it would make the papers.

Now they have aired the advert, let’s see how many men’s lives are ruined completely by an innocent conversational gesture.

mlem123

I can tell a lot of you men haven't had to deal with this on nights out.

Last month I was at a bar in Dublin with friends (wasn't even drinking as I was doing dry January), and some lad comes up behind ya while you're facing the bar waiting to be served, he puts his hand on your lower back and it's just the creepiest feeling. You also feel a bit stuck as you've people either side, a bar in front of you, and some fecker with his hand on your back.

In this incident I just tried to ignore but often you get pulled in closer so they can shout into your ear. It's annoying and while I don't think it should be a criminal offence, it's creepy guys

Midster

mlem123 wrote: »

I can tell a lot of you men haven't had to deal with this on nights out.

Last month I was at a bar in Dublin with friends (wasn't even drinking as I was doing dry January), and some lad comes up behind ya while you're facing the bar waiting to be served, he puts his hand on your lower back and it's just the creepiest feeling. You also feel a bit stuck as you've people either side, a bar in front of you, and some fecker with his hand on your back.

In this incident I just tried to ignore but often you get pulled in closer so they can shout into your ear. It's annoying and while I don't think it should be a criminal offence, it's creepy guys

It’s extremely important to remember, that although it made you feel uncomfortable. That it wasn’t an assault, so thank you for posting this.
I’m sure for the person it wasn’t intended as an assault either.
More of an incidental

BattleCorp

bubblypop wrote: »

Sexual harassment is not a criminal offence.

Sorry, what?

Princess Calla

Midster wrote: »

It’s extremely important to remember, that although it made you feel uncomfortable. That it wasn’t an assault, so thank you for posting this.
I’m sure for the person it wasn’t intended as an assault either.
More of an incidental

No, but no one male or female should be made feel uncomfortable when they are going about their daily lives.

The whole attitude of "someone touched you, made you uncomfortable, get over it" needs to change.

ohnonotgmail

Midster wrote: »

It’s extremely important to remember, that although it made you feel uncomfortable. That it wasn’t an assault, so thank you for posting this.
I’m sure for the person it wasn’t intended as an assault either.
More of an incidental

Techically it was assault

An assault is defined as “a person shall be guilty of the offence of assault who, without lawful excuse, intentionally or recklessly –
(A) directly or indirectly applies force to causes an impact on the body of another, or
(B) causes another to believe on reasonable grounds that here she is likely immediately to be subjected to any such force impact, without the consent of the other.

Dytalus

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Techically it was assault

Missed a portion in that which is fairly important:

(3) No such offence is committed if the force or impact, not being intended or likely to cause injury, is in the circumstances such as is generally acceptable in the ordinary conduct of daily life and the defendant does not know or believe that it is in fact unacceptable to the other person.

You have to be intending harm, or it has to be generally unacceptable in ordinary conduct or the defendant must be aware that the other person finds it unacceptable. Within the advert, she tries to remove his hand and actively says 'no' (IIRC) after the first touch but he persists, so in this circumstances where she's indicated she finds it unacceptable my understanding is it qualifies as assault.

In general the ad isn't indicating a change in the law. It's an effort to draw attention to something which isn't acceptable (touching people without their consent) but not strictly illegal. Or might be technically illegal but everyone does it anyway because "ah sure, where's the harm". The message isn't "you'll be arrested for this" so much as: "Whether you think it's okay to touch a person is irrelevant - until you know they're okay with it, don't do it."

GM228

BattleCorp wrote: »

Sorry, what?

Bubblypop is correct, there is no offence of "sexual harassment" in Ireland.

Quartzy99

It's quite simple - just don't touch people without their consent. Lots of people are uncomfortable at being touched in any way by strangers, that's their prerogative.

mlem123

Midster wrote: »

It’s extremely important to remember, that although it made you feel uncomfortable. That it wasn’t an assault, so thank you for posting this.
I’m sure for the person it wasn’t intended as an assault either.
More of an incidental

I wouldn't have classed it as assault and don't believe any harm is intended, it's just skeevy

But I also see the "hand on the lower back" move as more uncomfortable and creepy than a tap on the shoulder, if you're trying to get someones attention

Midster

Midster wrote: »

No!!! It’s not an assault, of any kind what so ever.

And it’s grossly unfair and unjust to even call gently placing a hand on anyone’s back while trying to engage them in friendly conversation an ASSAULT

Who is calling it assault? The ad says sexual harassment, which is not a crime.

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

Sorry, what?

What don't you understand?

dancingqueen

Midster wrote: »

But this is exactly what I mean. How is a man for example supposed to know in advance who will perceive a gentle touch on the back for example (not the face, boobs, legs, or bum) as unwanted contact???
Most people are perfectly fine with it, especially in a social environment, but because of an extremely small number of people being so easily offended. That kind of interaction can now be seen as to risky for anyone to even think about.
And then this behaviour, which doesn’t and never has offended the masses then comes to a crashing stop, for everyone, forever.

Are they? The ad isn't just a nice lad coming up and putting his hand on a girl's back. He is a creep, he keeps trying to buy her a drink and she does not want the attention. That's what I got from it.

OSI

OSI wrote: »

Underplaying it a bit there OP. He runs his finger down her back and then despite her trying to remove his hand he continues to touch her bare back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q-oYkq-Tv0

That is way more than talking with someone and initiating contact after assessing receptiveness. He opens with running his finger down her back and then refuses to remove.


In my bouncing days that would have, at least, resulted in a warning. If he were not apologetic, to her, out he goes.

I threw women out for similar actions also, going around grabbing guys crotch/arse for the lolz

GooglePlus

Your man in that advert is beyond a creep.

If not illegal, it's morally sick.

I'm sure you're not at that craic OP but if you see yourself in that man in anyway, maybe give it a rest.