Applying for an SNA

Cork Trucker

Calhoun wrote: »

If the needs arent being met that will then be for the courts to decide, depending on how it plays out between the schools, SENO and parents.

If the needs aren't being met and the child becomes a disruption to the overall process anyone engaged in legal proceeding will be pushing for reports from Tusla, NCSE and a psychologist amongst other things. The school and SENO will be forced to go the long way around on it.

I feel sorry for some parents, as they will be pressured by the principals and SEN teachers to just remove children without adequate backup in place.

Yes you are correct in what you say

Calhoun

Cork Trucker wrote: »

In your school they’ll be worse next September?

In all schools because of the new model they are bringing in place. The SENO's are touting it like its the be and end all and will solve world hunger. It will not.

However, the parents are going to be dragged into it and if not careful children will come out of it the worst to prove it doesnt work.

Cork Trucker

Calhoun wrote: »

In all schools because of the new model they are bringing in place. The SENO's are touting it like its the be and end all and will solve world hunger. It will not.

However, the parents are going to be dragged into it and if not careful children will come out of it the worst to prove it doesnt work.

Is this a government cutback via the back door?

Calhoun

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Is this a government cutback via the back door?

Seems to be something they are putting in place on the recommendation of the NCSE.

Many see it as a cutback, the SENO's do not. The battle to be fought is over can they deliver an inclusive education with the supports they are putting in place?

No doubt it will end up before the courts as they probably cannot.

Cork Trucker

Calhoun wrote: »

Seems to be something they are putting in place on the recommendation of the NCSE.

Many see it as a cutback, the SENO's do not. The battle to be fought is over can they deliver an inclusive education with the supports they are putting in place?

No doubt it will end up before the courts as they probably cannot.

The courts will be clogged for all eternity

Calhoun

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The courts will be clogged for all eternity

https://adhdireland.ie/introduction-of-new-model-for-allocating-snas-for-mainstream-classes-for-2020-21-and-beyond/

Explains the new model.

https://ncse.ie/is-a-fully-inclusive-school-system-right-for-ireland

Is what they are trying to get to.

Cork Trucker

Calhoun wrote: »

https://adhdireland.ie/introduction-of-new-model-for-allocating-snas-for-mainstream-classes-for-2020-21-and-beyond/

Explains the new model.

https://ncse.ie/is-a-fully-inclusive-school-system-right-for-ireland

Is what they are trying to get to.

Thank you for the links, will give them a look over now

Calhoun

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Thank you for the links, will give them a look over now

The question you will have to answer is do you want to risk your son going into that environment right now when things are unstable.

Also who knows if they will keep things going as they are now we have changed government. Not allot like the NCSE's new proposed policy.

glack

Calhoun wrote: »

In all schools because of the new model they are bringing in place. The SENO's are touting it like its the be and end all and will solve world hunger. It will not.

However, the parents are going to be dragged into it and if not careful children will come out of it the worst to prove it doesnt work.

Not in all schools. We expect to greatly benefit in our school. Old model favours the schools where parents are willing/able to pay for private assessments. New model (if what’s rumoured is true) favours the more disadvantaged schools and looks at the overall profile of the school allocating SNAs in the way that Special Education Teachers have been allocated for the last couple of years.

It’s supposed to cut out the idea that you can “buy” support for your child buy paying for the private assessments rather than waiting to be seen through the HSE/school A school will be told you get X number of SNAs and it’s up to you how you allocate them. Some schools will gain others will lose out.

Calhoun

glack wrote: »

Not in all schools. We expect to greatly benefit in our school. Old model favours the schools where parents are willing/able to pay for private assessments. New model (if what’s rumoured is true) favours the more disadvantaged schools and looks at the overall profile of the school allocating SNAs in the way that Special Education Teachers have been allocated for the last couple of years.

It’s supposed to cut out the idea that you can “buy” support for your child buy paying for the private assessments rather than waiting to be seen through the HSE/school A school will be told you get X number of SNAs and it’s up to you how you allocate them. Some schools will gain others will lose out.

We shall see how it goes, a proper private assessment costs upwards of 1K. The HSE has backlogs for AON across the country.

Cork Trucker

glack wrote: »

Not in all schools. We expect to greatly benefit in our school. Old model favours the schools where parents are willing/able to pay for private assessments. New model (if what’s rumoured is true) favours the more disadvantaged schools and looks at the overall profile of the school allocating SNAs in the way that Special Education Teachers have been allocated for the last couple of years.

It’s supposed to cut out the idea that you can “buy” support for your child buy paying for the private assessments rather than waiting to be seen through the HSE/school A school will be told you get X number of SNAs and it’s up to you how you allocate them. Some schools will gain others will lose out.

The school in my son's case is a DEIS school.

Cork Trucker

Calhoun wrote: »

The question you will have to answer is do you want to risk your son going into that environment right now when things are unstable.

Also who knows if they will keep things going as they are now we have changed government. Not allot like the NCSE's new proposed policy.

In an ideal world if they become reality it would be perfect, of course this is Ireland.

Gatling

Calhoun wrote: »

In all schools because of the new model they are bringing in place. The SENO's are touting it like its the be and end all and will solve world hunger. It will not.

This is part of the problem there is no real thinking goes into these decisions ,
Oh they do this in America and it works only to find out very quickly that no this particular idea does not work , let's go with the Nordic models based off one person spending a weekend in Sweden or Denmark ,no that doesn't work either because the Nordic model education different to us and other countries ,
Let's build sensory rooms in every school ,lets look at theses sensory rooms I've been to about 20 schools with sensory rooms which are nothing more than a mid seized ball pool and a few soft mats , completely inadequate in my opinion ,most asd units are just glorified crèches that eventually kids get moved out of to mainstream clasees whether try are capable of sitting and learning in a mainstream class or not
Now they want to get rid of asd units and special classes and move into to full mainstream classes and restrict SNA to non educational support only (toilet, feeding , dressing ),
There seems to be little support for most SNA's for upskilling ie lamh ,pecs , dealing with poor behaviour or management of poor behaviour and so on ,
I've worked in a room where 2 children used apps to communicate but the teacher puts digital devices in school bags not to be used the same with pecs books then wondering why children are lashing out due to not being able to communicate ,

The system was broke before it started but yet it's still being used under its inclusive ,the current system is wrong and the next bandaid will be the same and the next after that ,

I'm lucky in the sense I see it from both sides of the fence as both a parent of a child with extra needs and as someone who works with children of extra needs

glack

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The SENO mentioned something about March alright, it’s a cut off date for applications or something.

My child can take off his own jacket, can eat unassisted, isn’t toilet trained, is a flight risk. They can follow some but not many instructions. Doesn’t wander around the class that I know of. He mixes very well with other children and will sit next to them,

Lots of positives there. But also plenty to work on between now and September. I would still maintain that an extra year in a good preschool is far more preferable than school at his age. However if ye are set on going ahead, you can start now in preparing him.

I would work on the following
-toileting: this is most important and will cause him huge stress. See can you find out from other parents are there toilets in his classroom or will he need to leave the classroom to go to the toilet. Try and create some sort of way he can indicate with his hands his need to use the toilet. One that works well is making a T shape with his hands.

Coat: being able to go get his coat from hook, put it on and zip it up. A simple thing but with 20 kids in the room this process can cause chaos in the room. Noise and chaos is helped greatly by having a system. If he knows how to do this unaided he will be able to stay calm. Being able to do this independently will help greatly. Also unzipping, taking it off and hanging it up without any help.

Lunch box: practice taking it to and from a bag, opening it unaided, eating and putting it away.

School bag: taking things to and from the bag independently. Buy the bag well in advance so you can practice and it becomes familiar. Also practice putting it on his back.

Expose him to loud noisy situations with other children. Rugby, GAA, music classes. Anything with a crowd where they are expected to learn something. Here you can work on the flight risk issues as well as getting a good view of how he is with others.

Calhoun

Gatling wrote: »

This is part of the problem there is no real thinking goes into these decisions ,
Oh they do this in America and it works only to find out very quickly that no this particular idea does not work , let's go with the Nordic models based off one person spending a weekend in Sweden or Denmark ,no that doesn't work either because the Nordic model education different to us and other countries ,
Let's build sensory rooms in every school ,lets look at theses sensory rooms I've been to about 20 schools with sensory rooms which are nothing more than a mid seized ball pool and a few soft mats , completely inadequate in my opinion ,most asd units are just glorified crèches that eventually kids get moved out of to mainstream clasees whether try are capable of sitting and learning in a mainstream class or not
Now they want to get rid of asd units and special classes and move into to full mainstream classes and restrict SNA to non educational support only (toilet, feeding , dressing ),
There seems to be little support for most SNA's for upskilling ie lamh ,pecs , dealing with poor behaviour or management of poor behaviour and so on ,
I've worked in a room where 2 children used apps to communicate but the teacher puts digital devices in school bags not to be used the same with pecs books then wondering why children are lashing out due to not being able to communicate ,

The system was broke before it started but yet it's still being used under its inclusive ,the current system is wrong and the next bandaid will be the same and the next after that ,

I'm lucky in the sense I see it from both sides of the fence as both a parent of a child with extra needs and as someone who works with children of extra needs

For sure it really needs allot of joint up thinking. Imagine we still have a scenario where a good chunk of our teachers aren't trained much on special education until they are assigned to a class room.

That teacher sounds quite horrible, you would wonder if she had kids in a wheel chair would she kick them out of it or make them sit on a floor as the wheelchair would be too much of an aid.

The only way the system is going to get unbroken is by people pushing back against it, unfortunately for parents it may mean through the courts. It also means we are on a confrontational footing even with the local schools themselves who for the most part feel they are being forced into the scenario (which they are but not by the parents).

I see it from both sides as well as ironically my wife is a teacher in a unit.

glack

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The school in my son's case is a DEIS school.

Have they many SNAs currently? Any idea how many students?

Motherof123

Millem wrote: »

Have you told the preschool that your child will be leaving in June 2020? If so they may have offered his space to another child.
If not I would assume they would need to offer you the second year. Our preschool has an enrolment policy.

In the HT situation I have described the HT does not come to your house....space is no issue. I have worked as a HT and never work in my students’ homes.

There are early intervention playschools in cork that accept HOme tuition but they are full so get his name down for sept 2020 if you want the early intervention it's a ratio of 2/3 children to one adult (I think) you get 20 home tuition so regardless of his ecce you can still avail of the 5 home tuition. The ecce is 15 so you can have 5 home tuition. Ring your seno she will fill in the paperwork for you.
Even if you got one morning a week HT it would help.

You could avail of the July provision it's 10 hours a week for the month of July. They will help with toilet training and some work for school prep. He is entitled to it so look into that for support. He will be finished his ecce.

heldel00

Yes things will get worse for children in my school next September. We have two SNAs. One is just being pulled from pillar to post.
One of our classes had a very short outing to a local hall last week. SNA walked down with 30 children and class teacher, returned immediately to school to work with jun infant that is a risk to himself and others, child with ASD became overwhelmed in the local hall and unintentionally injured the visiting sports teacher, class teacher had to ring up to school for assistance.......child and classmates were beyond frightened. (Another child in school has life threatening condition which requires 1-to-1 care but this SNA is still counted as being available to support all children with additional needs. She is not. She can not leave this child's side.)
I'm not trying to worry you but this is life in irish primary schools in 2020. If your child would be better able to cope with what is ahead after an extra year in playschool then don't let a few aul wagons at the door deny him/her that.

Motherof123

heldel00 wrote: »

Yes things will get worse for children in my school next September. We have two SNAs. One is just being pulled from pillar to post.
One of our classes had a very short outing to a local hall last week. SNA walked down with 30 children and class teacher, returned immediately to school to work with jun infant that is a risk to himself and others, child with ASD became overwhelmed in the local hall and unintentionally injured the visiting sports teacher, class teacher had to ring up to school for assistance.......child and classmates were beyond frightened. (Another child in school has life threatening condition which requires 1-to-1 care but this SNA is still counted as being available to support all children with additional needs. She is not. She can not leave this child's side.)
I'm not trying to worry you but this is life in irish primary schools in 2020. If your child would be better able to cope with what is ahead after an extra year in playschool then don't let a few aul wagons at the door deny him/her that.

I didn't realise the SNA situation was that bad. I thought if a child didn't have one attached at all times it was because there was no need.
One of my older kids is very sensible and she is always asked to take a girl in her class to the bathroom she's only just tagging along maybe to make sure the child comes and goes without hanging around.
She also helps her when the SNA is in the room.
Opening books and lunch box etc.
It's so worrying having a child with special needs and it dosent stop even when they are at school.
Getting School places in ASD classrooms for kids with special needs is a disaster because there are not enough schools with qualified staff to accommodate.

It's been like this for years they have the funding they are not spending it wisely.
What about the amount of money they spend on transport shipping kids miles away it's totally understandable for children who may need wheelchair accessible transport but I'd love for my child to be able to go local and walk him to and from school.
Instead of the transport my seno told me apply to all the schools I'm in cork city and some schools on the list are bantry! I don't drive what if he's sick and I have to go get him.

The money that goes on home tuition could go to a special school.
The Aims money for an extra member of staff is a joke coz that child doesn't get any extra help! You can not compare a playschool with Aims to an early intervention preschool.
I was hoping my child would cope with Aims in ecce but they couldn't even do that for him!
Home tuition is great but there is so much red tape that not all Creche's will allow a home tutor on site.
For now we are doing home tuition and aiming for early intervention 2 years and start school at 6. My other kids were 5 and 5 months starting so the extra few months for maturity is fine by me.
I'm not in any rush because we won't get a place anyway.
And having to fight for that alone is a disgrace.

irishgirl19

Motherof123 wrote: »

There are early intervention playschools in cork that accept HOme tuition but they are full so get his name down for sept 2020 if you want the early intervention it's a ratio of 2/3 children to one adult (I think) you get 20 home tuition so regardless of his ecce you can still avail of the 5 home tuition. The ecce is 15 so you can have 5 home tuition. Ring your seno she will fill in the paperwork for you.
Even if you got one morning a week HT it would help.

You could avail of the July provision it's 10 hours a week for the month of July. They will help with toilet training and some work for school prep. He is entitled to it so look into that for support. He will be finished his ecce.

Careful with this. SENOs can and do regularly refuse home tuition grant applications if there is an available school place. In this case the SENO is obviously aware of a school place offer in mainstream school.
I'd discuss with the SENO first to see if he/she would be willing to approve this.

glack

irishgirl19 wrote: »

Careful with this. SENOs can and do regularly refuse home tuition grant applications if there is an available school place. In this case the SENO is obviously aware of a school place offer in mainstream school.
I'd discuss with the SENO first to see if he/she would be willing to approve this.

It would be extremely unlikely based on the child’s age in this case I would imagine surely? Genuinely think the OP is simply at his wits end with the preschool and feels school is the best option. Without knowing details of the case, I would argue that school is not the best place for any child (special needs or not) at barely 4. Times have changed and most children are over 4.5 years when starting school. A child with special needs would benefit from every advantage they can get and being at the older end (if not the oldest) of the class is far more desirable.

We’ve had a situation in the recent past where a child was refused SNA support as they were so young and their reports clearly identified that they needed to complete their second preschool year. They were in an early intervention placement though so circumstances are different.

Cork Trucker

glack wrote: »

It would be extremely unlikely based on the child’s age in this case I would imagine surely? Genuinely think the OP is simply at his wits end with the preschool and feels school is the best option. Without knowing details of the case, I would argue that school is not the best place for any child (special needs or not) at barely 4. Times have changed and most children are over 4.5 years when starting school. A child with special needs would benefit from every advantage they can get and being at the older end (if not the oldest) of the class is far more desirable.

We’ve had a situation in the recent past where a child was refused SNA support as they were so young and their reports clearly identified that they needed to complete their second preschool year. They were in an early intervention placement though so circumstances are different.

You're correct, i am at my wits end in a big big way. The issue i have here is as follows, if for example i did wait another year, his fifth birthday, and there is no change or very very little, from his second to third birthday the only difference is he can say all his ABC's and count 1-10, will the school then turn around and tell me "oh he'd benefit from another year in preschool and you can get an exemption for that", this is my issue, The next nearest preschool is right next door to where the school in question is, so i'm thinking if i have to travel there then why not just chance it. What i cannot understand, and you might know this? Is why are the department of education advocating 2 years of preschool and have left the minimum school entry age at 4? I feel many people are being brainwashed by the system and what's on offer (2 preschool years) is a effectively a carrot to entice people in. I started school at 5 in the 1980's and i still have a major issue about it as it cost me a year on the other end, this is perhaps clouding my judgement of it all i admit.

Calhoun

Cork Trucker wrote: »

You're correct, i am at my wits end in a big big way. The issue i have here is as follows, if for example i did wait another year, his fifth birthday, and there is no change or very very little, from his second to third birthday the only difference is he can say all his ABC's and count 1-10, will the school then turn around and tell me "oh he'd benefit from another year in preschool and you can get an exemption for that", this is my issue, The next nearest preschool is right next door to where the school in question is, so i'm thinking if i have to travel there then why not just chance it. What i cannot understand, and you might know this? Is why are the department of education advocating 2 years of preschool and have left the minimum school entry age at 4? I feel many people are being brainwashed by the system and what's on offer (2 preschool years) is a effectively a carrot to entice people in. I started school at 5 in the 1980's and i still have a major issue about it as it cost me a year on the other end, this is perhaps clouding my judgement of it all i admit.

To speak plainly I think you need to put the hangup on what year they enter to the side. Unfortunately our kids will not walk the same path as neurotypical children, it doesn't mean they will have worse outcomes just they need a bit more TLC.

What you need to decide when everything stacks up is where is the best place for your son that he can learn and grow. For us we took the two years ECCE because we had aims assistance. We also had the SENO push to get us a spot in an ASD pre-school if we wanted.

One thing to consider that you might not have is the ability for your son to achieve in a meaningful way. As your son moves from junior, senior then on through 1st to 6th class the gap between him and his peers more than likely will widen. That will have an impact on his ability to learn as he will be allot more demotivated than his peers. This can also negatively impact on development as it can cause anxiety for them.

Anyway I don't envy your decision, its a hard one and you will need to fight and hold people to account but just consider is this the right battle for your son at this time.

jlm29

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Is why are the department of education advocating 2 years of preschool and have left the minimum school entry age at 4?

They’ve left it at age 4 for the kids who turn 5 earlier in the school year. My eldest is a November baby, so turned 5 two months after starting. I know the law says that they can start once they turn 4 that September, but the legal minimum isn’t the same as the optimal. My November boy is one of the youngest in his class. I think that in the class of 24, there’s only 3 or 4 younger than him. Any of them with birthdays from feb or March onwards were kept until 5 to start school. Our primary school will prioritise places for the older kids, they’d only offer places to the younger kids if they couldn’t fill them with older ones, regardless of when they go on the list.

glack

Cork Trucker wrote: »

You're correct, i am at my wits end in a big big way. The issue i have here is as follows, if for example i did wait another year, his fifth birthday, and there is no change or very very little, from his second to third birthday the only difference is he can say all his ABC's and count 1-10, will the school then turn around and tell me "oh he'd benefit from another year in preschool and you can get an exemption for that", this is my issue, The next nearest preschool is right next door to where the school in question is, so i'm thinking if i have to travel there then why not just chance it. What i cannot understand, and you might know this? Is why are the department of education advocating 2 years of preschool and have left the minimum school entry age at 4? I feel many people are being brainwashed by the system and what's on offer (2 preschool years) is a effectively a carrot to entice people in. I started school at 5 in the 1980's and i still have a major issue about it as it cost me a year on the other end, this is perhaps clouding my judgement of it all i admit.

Times have changed and the norm is now to wait to send your child until at least 4 and a half, ideally 5 even leaving those just turned 4 at a huge disadvantage. Children who turn 4 from March/April onwards generally all wait until 5. Thought process is they are better prepared for school, more mature and can cope with the emotional challenges better. And you can see the younger children right through primary school - academically they can be fine but the older children succeed more easily in every other way. School is about much more than academics.

If I was you, sending my child to school would be my very last resort. Chase every avenue for a better placement for your child. Contact the school, the SENO. See can you find a more specialised preschool placement or a playschool that can accommodate home tuition. Make all the preparations you can. These next couple of years are vital in the development of your child-you want to get the best advice so you can make the best choice. Try not to rush into a decision.

byhookorbycrook

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The school in my son's case is a DEIS school.

Having DEIS status doesn’t mean extra SNAs.

byhookorbycrook

Motherof123 wrote: »

I didn't realise the SNA situation was that bad. I thought if a child didn't have one attached at all times it was because there was no need.
One of my older kids is very sensible and she is always asked to take a girl in her class to the bathroom she's only just tagging along maybe to make sure the child comes and goes without hanging around.
She also helps her when the SNA is in the room.
Opening books and lunch box etc.
It's so worrying having a child with special needs and it dosent stop even when they are at school.
Getting School places in ASD classrooms for kids with special needs is a disaster because there are not enough schools with qualified staff to accommodate.

It's been like this for years they have the funding they are not spending it wisely.
What about the amount of money they spend on transport shipping kids miles away it's totally understandable for children who may need wheelchair accessible transport but I'd love for my child to be able to go local and walk him to and from school.
Instead of the transport my seno told me apply to all the schools I'm in cork city and some schools on the list are bantry! I don't drive what if he's sick and I have to go get him.

The money that goes on home tuition could go to a special school.
The Aims money for an extra member of staff is a joke coz that child doesn't get any extra help! You can not compare a playschool with Aims to an early intervention preschool.
I was hoping my child would cope with Aims in ecce but they couldn't even do that for him!
Home tuition is great but there is so much red tape that not all Creche's will allow a home tutor on site.
For now we are doing home tuition and aiming for early intervention 2 years and start school at 6. My other kids were 5 and 5 months starting so the extra few months for maturity is fine by me.
I'm not in any rush because we won't get a place anyway.
And having to fight for that alone is a disgrace.

Whilst it’s truly lovely that your older child is so kind and helpful, it’s not up to her to be a “mini-SNA. “ I’m all for kindness, helping each other etc. but she needs her time too-it shouldn’t all fall to her .

glack

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Having DEIS status doesn’t mean extra SNAs.

But having DEIS status has meant an increase in Special Education Teachers. If the new SNA model (as yet only not published) follows a similar model as is expected, it's not crazy to predict the possibility of a slightly higher allocation in DEIS schools next year.

When it came out in 2017, many DEIS schools benefited greatly from increased SET hours. The intention with this was to rebalance the inequality where children whose parents were in a position to pay for a private assessment they had greater opportunities to benefit from resource hours. Also, research shows a higher incidence of special needs in areas of disadvantage.

heldel00

^^^ yes I have seen children take on a "caring" role that can have a detrimental effect on the "carer". Some can feel under pressure that it is their job to mind them and their own friendships/ playtime can suffer.
A very admirable quality but make sure your child is happy and not missing out.

Calhoun

There in lies the rub its a bit of a balance, its also nice when it does happen at times as a little bit of friendship in a fairly hostile environment goes a long way. At the same time there needs to be steps to make sure that the child helping isn't overburdened.

The SNA and teachers i would assume would watch for that.