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Exporting a firearm to a non eu country

  • 31-01-2020 11:46am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭ Jonty


    So I’m looking at exporting some firearms and not using a broker. I want to fly out with them.

    The DBEI sent me some forms to fill out but want me to get a Removal Order from my local superintendent.

    As usual, I’m getting the run around from the cops and I’m not sure they know how to provide this.

    If anybody has done this before, I’d appreciate some guidance on the issue.


Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    I have no experience of this but as a source of reference by way of your dealings with the Gaurds it is covered, very briefly, in The Garda Commissioner's Guidelines as to the Practical Application and Operation of the Firearms Acts, 19252009

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/online-services/firearms-licensing/commissioner-s-guidelines-2018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiVv_u6-K3nAhXNTxUIHa6ZDLMQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3PQDpG5hYc-seGtrmDH-vg

    Authorisation for Export or Removal  Page 27.
    PERMANENT EXPORT OF FIREARMS BY AN IRISH RESIDENT



    Having said that, I ran into the same problem looking for my European Firearms Licence. After searching the internet and here for advice, I contacted the Supers Intendents Secretary (in this case a GS Sgt) and played dumb asking were I could get the relevant form etc. In relation to the EFL there was none. It was a matter of sending in details and info etc, etc and the work was done by themselves.
    So, unless someone else knows better, I think this is an internal thing. I would belive that filling in FCA 2 form would start the ball rolling as the export of firearms is covered in this form.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    I done this, but to the UK (an EU country) but i believe the process is the same or very similar.

    You need an EFL (European Firearms Pass/License). You go into your local station, ask for it, and fill out the guns covered under it. You can put all your firearms on this, not just the one you seek to export. They send it up to the Super who signs off on it. Its all done at station level.

    You then apply for a personal permanent export license from the DoJ. This should take about two weeks. You'll need the EFL, your license, the details of the gun and the person/business its going to.

    As for the traveling with it bit, on that you're on your own. I've never flew with firearms so while i'm a little familiar with the process i've never done it so don't want to give the wrong or poor advice.

    There may be someone who has gone through this process recently as i done mine about 9 years ago so unless it's changed the details above should be a good starting point.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭ Jonty


    It’s the “authorization for Transport or Removal” from the guards that I’m having trouble with.

    The DBEI said I need one. The local cops are just a little lost.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭ .243


    Jonty wrote: »
    It’s the “authorization for Transport or Removal” from the guards that I’m having trouble with.

    The DBEI said I need one. The local cops are just a little lost.
    Because the only one to issue it is the local superintendent,it’s nothing to do with anyone below him,ring the supers office directly


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Excuse my ignorance, but the DBEI is the Dept of business, enterprise and innovation, yes? If so what have they to do with exporting a firearm?

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    Once the firearm is going out side of the EU, the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation are involved with the process.

    This document from the Super Intendant:
    "An Authorisation for Export or Removal' -
    is required on two occasions.
    1. If there is no current firearms licence.
    2. If exporting outside of EU.



    PERMANENT EXPORT OF FIREARMS BY AN IRISH RESIDENT
    When a resident of this State wishes to export a firearm, there are various legal requirements depending on the circumstances:
    An individual exporting a firearm to a member state of the European Union should use a Firearms Import/Export Application Form accompanied by a copy of the valid firearms certificate for the firearm and should forward same to:
    The Firearms, Explosives and Private Security Division, Department of Justice and Equality, 51 St Stephens Green, Dublin 2.
    Note: In cases where there is no current firearm certificate, the individual must apply to the local Garda superintendent for
    'An Authorisation for Export or Removal' (it is recommended that the duration of this authorisation by the superintendent should be for a standardised timeframe of 3 months to ensure adequate time is given to fully process the application) and
    attach this to the application to the Department who have responsibility for granting the export licence.


    2 An individual exporting a firearm or ammunition to a country which is not amember of the European Union should apply to Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Kildare St, Dublin 2.


    The above information taken from the Commissioners Guidlines... is repeated in serveral documents from serveral departments DoJ, Customs, DBEI and the Gaurds.

    Once the DBEI is your channel you will be directed back to the Superintendent for 'An Authorisation for Export or Removal'.

    Jonty as suggested here, go straight to your District HQ and the Supers Office, hopefully your local station isn't the District HQ, and you may get better service.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭ Jonty


    Cass wrote: »
    Excuse my ignorance, but the DBEI is the Dept of business, enterprise and innovation, yes? If so what have they to do with exporting a firearm?

    They look after exports to non eu countries. DoJ looks after EU countries


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭ Jonty


    Still no progress from my local station regarding my authorization for removal.

    I’m beginning to hate incompetence more so than usual.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    Is your local Garda station also the District HQ?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    Just a thought!

    Would it not be easier to cancel your licence, hand the firearm into an appropriate firearms dealer. Have them export the firearm via thier buisness.

    If I am correct, (I have imported a firearm, hence needed to apply for a licence here) you will have to have the appropriate licences in the country of destination, unless it is for another person. So there would be no issue in the destination country that the firearm is unlicensed.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭ Asus1


    Jonty wrote: »
    Still no progress from my local station regarding my authorization for removal.

    I’m beginning to hate incompetence more so than usual.

    I cant get a courier company to transport a gun within Ireland so i dont envy you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Why not ring the Park firearms section and explain your problem to Insp P Greene and tell him the story and that it seems beyond your local stations wit and ken to do this? 016661911 is still their number I think.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭ Jonty


    Just a thought!

    Would it not be easier to cancel your licence, hand the firearm into an appropriate firearms dealer. Have them export the firearm via thier buisness.

    If I am correct, (I have imported a firearm, hence needed to apply for a licence here) you will have to have the appropriate licences in the country of destination, unless it is for another person. So there would be no issue in the destination country that the firearm is unlicensed.

    No import license required where I am. Unfortunately the DBEI are also thick. They cannot comprehend that I cannot provide something I’m not obligated to have on the import side.

    To do as you suggest is somewhat cost prohibitive.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    The below only counts if the GS cant provide the relavant paperwork.

    Just to be clear, when you say 'export' you mean to export permanently out of this country never to bring back?

    Can you not travel with the firearms to the country of destination as you would if you were going on a forgein hunting trip. When you get there organise with a local dealer to validate them as been licenceed in that country, if you don't require an import licence there then surely a local RFD, can orgainse relavant permits for you. Then with paper work in hand, use a FAC2 form to cancel the licences here.

    The other way would be for you to export to a EU country were it would be easier to then forward on the firearms to your final destination, altough I would say this will add on cost.

    I have heard of people emergrating that wanted to bring thier firearms with them, who after all was considered, found it too costly and unwieldy to do so, the cheeper option was to purchase firearms at the final destination.

    We seem to be stuck in archaic times, I have friends abroad that have firearms permanently left in other counties exclusively for the purpose of thier hunting vacations there.

    Ohhh to have the money and support net work to do so!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭ Jonty


    The below only counts if the GS cant provide the relavant paperwork.

    Just to be clear, when you say 'export' you mean to export permanently out of this country never to bring back?

    Can you not travel with the firearms to the country of destination as you would if you were going on a forgein hunting trip. When you get there organise with a local dealer to validate them as been licenceed in that country, if you don't require an import licence there then surely a local RFD, can orgainse relavant permits for you. Then with paper work in hand, use a FAC2 form to cancel the licences here.

    The other way would be for you to export to a EU country were it would be easier to then forward on the firearms to your final destination, altough I would say this will add on cost.

    I have heard of people emergrating that wanted to bring thier firearms with them, who after all was considered, found it too costly and unwieldy to do so, the cheeper option was to purchase firearms at the final destination.

    We seem to be stuck in archaic times, I have friends abroad that have firearms permanently left in other counties exclusively for the purpose of thier hunting vacations there.

    Ohhh to have the money and support net work to do so!!!


    This would be a permanent export. The travelling issue is that I have no documents leaving Ireland, except my Irish licence. So I’m pretty sure the customs guys in the airport would have a problem. I don’t need import permits or registrations where I’m going, on the import side the only concern will be paying duty.

    It’s more for sentimental reasons than anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Without appearing to be nosey.Where are you departing to? When you say the" customs guys at the airport".Do you mean Ireland,or your ultimate destination?They arent involved in Ireland,It's a security issue for the airport cops, to get it onto the plane safely and your destination if you dont need registration or import certs,well then its academic bar paying import duty.
    As for here,if you arent coming back,I'd simply send your Super a note from your new home along the lines of

    Dear Super...As I have emigrated from this country,and I have taken my firearms XYZ serial nr 123 with me.I'm informing you of this so they can be struck from the firearms register.

    Optional
    Thanks for all the non help I recived from your offices on this matter in trying to aquire a cert of removal from the state
    Sincerely

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭ Jonty


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Without appearing to be nosey.Where are you departing to? When you say the" customs guys at the airport".Do you mean Ireland,or your ultimate destination?They arent involved in Ireland,It's a security issue for the airport cops, to get it onto the plane safely and your destination if you dont need registration or import certs,well then its academic bar paying import duty.
    As for here,if you arent coming back,I'd simply send your Super a note from your new home along the lines of

    Dear Super...As I have emigrated from this country,and I have taken my firearms XYZ serial nr 123 with me.I'm informing you of this so they can be struck from the firearms register.

    Optional
    Thanks for all the non help I recived from your offices on this matter in trying to aquire a cert of removal from the state
    Sincerely

    So to get the firearm onto a plane, I’m sure there’s an inspection on the Irish side and they would want to see some form of paperwork. No European Firearms Pass is needed as I’m going to a non EU country (Canada). All the Canadians care about is me declaring I have a firearm so they can charge me duty. Sporting firearms are exempt from import permits in Canada.

    The level of ineptitude is crazy. If I had an outstanding speeding ticket, the cops would be all over me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Yes there is an inspection on the Irish side.By the nice ticket check in guy/girl!

    All they want to see there is that the gun are the same items that are on their cargo manifest and that they are travelling in a safe unloaded manner with any ammo seperate,and that you have FAC for them here.They'll then escort you down to the oversize bagge area with your clearly marked "FIREARMS" case :P where its Xrayed and airport security and baggage handling take over.Thats it until you collect them,or more than likely have them deliverd to the Canadian customs by ground staff for you to take over from there.

    Thats from now travelling a dozen times from Dublin with firearms to the EU with the EU firearms pass,which in this case is a moot item. I've never had AGS/Customs involved on the outward bound leg.Inbound ,Irish customs half the time just gave my Irish liscense a cursory check,and the other times wanted to see if it was the same gun and serial number.Moot point again.

    In short the inspection side on departure is to see; Do you legally own it?Is it the same item you declared you are shipping on the flight?Is it safe to ship in its present condition?IE unloaded and safe and seperate from any ammo in an approved locked airline baggage container? Thats really all the airline/airport security wants to see. They dont care what you are doing with it on the other side,or what happens once its off the aircraft.

    If you are flying direct to Canada that should be it.Only way I could see you having a problem would be if you flew out of some place anal,like Heathrow or the UK in general from a inter island flight,and they wanted some Uk import cert to clear Uk security customs etc,like the Dutch want in Schipol,eventhough your guns are checked thru direct to final destination.So best just get a direct IRL/Canada flite,if such is there.

    Only other thing to watch is...Some airlines will only handle ONE gun per passenger.[Aerlingus is one].So make sure your carrier will handle a multiple shipment for you.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    Altough not flying, I would concur with Grizzly 45's comments.
    While traveling via ferry I was only asked to produce relavant licences, checked that I was complying with the carriers safety standards (unloaded, broken, secured and no ammo). Not once have the port police or customs being involved. On arrival to my destination, it was simply roll off, passport check and off I went. Similar experience on the way home, again no external agency got involved. I was stoped by customs enquiring weather or not I had 600L+ of wine aboard, not a jot about the firearms.


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