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Is proof of payment enough to collect gun

  • 25-01-2020 12:07am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭ Zimmerframe


    Doesn't really matter , but received confirmation of gun licence application accepted and will pay in post office in the morning.
    Is proof of payment, good enough to collect a gun or does the licence have to come in the post.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ alanmc


    Any RFD I've used required the license. Receipt of payment and the grant letter was not enough.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭ Zimmerframe


    just that i saw a few of the "online" gun shops say that proof of payment is fine


  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭ Gorgeousgeorge


    Depends on the rfd. Iv collected a few bits with the grant letter and receipt and others wouldn't hear if it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭ Lmklad


    Post office receipt or grand notice are not a certificate. Possession of a firearm without a current certificate is possession of an unlicensed firearm.


  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭ Gorgeousgeorge


    Lmklad wrote: »
    Post office receipt or grand notice are not a certificate. Possession of a firearm without a current certificate is possession of an unlicensed firearm.

    But it is a licenced firearm. The minute the super Grant's the licence and the grant letter is dispatched it's on the pulse system as being licenced to you


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  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭ Lmklad


    But it is a licenced firearm. The minute the super Grant's the licence and the grant letter is dispatched it's on the pulse system as being licenced to you

    Incorrect. Until you actually pay for it in the Post office the status of the firearm remains at “grant notice” not current. It is still classified as an unlicensed firearm.


  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭ Gorgeousgeorge


    Lmklad wrote: »
    Incorrect. Until you actually pay for it in the Post office the status of the firearm remains at “grant notice” not current. It is still classified as an unlicensed firearm.

    Not incorrect at all. Iv submitted renewals, in the mean time sold/ traded up, not paid the fee and submitted fca2's and the gun was still licenced to me as I found out lately when the crime prevention officer looked for 1 firearm I didnt have nor paid the licence fee for


  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭ Lmklad


    Not incorrect at all. Iv submitted renewals, in the mean time sold/ traded up, not paid the fee and submitted fca2's and the gun was still licenced to me as I found out lately when the crime prevention officer looked for 1 firearm I didnt have nor paid the licence fee for

    The firearm is still registered to you unless you cancel it using an FCA2. If you don’t have a valid certificate the firearm is unlicensed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭ Gorgeousgeorge


    Lmklad wrote: »
    The firearm is still registered to you unless you cancel it using an FCA2. If you don’t have a valid certificate the firearm is unlicensed.

    Re read my comment specifically the bit about the fca2 being submitted. And I will have to 100% disagree with you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭ solarwinds


    In my opinion until you actually have the licence in your hand you do not have a licence.
    Telling a guard or anyone else, sure look it I have paid the fee and here is a receipt from the post office, that is not a licence and nor is a grant letter. A grant letter is not the physical licence.
    While some dealers may hand out firearms without a physical licence does not mean it is correct.
    I would rather be in possession of the physical card, than grant letters or receipts. Neither are an actual licence.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭ Peppa Cig


    RFD has stated that Phoneix Park HQ have stated that no firearms should be released until licence in hand.

    I understand that RFD should take photocopy of licence at time of release of firearm.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    Peppa Cig wrote: »
    I understand that RFD should take photocopy of licence at time of release of firearm.

    I don't think so, I've never had a RFD photo copy my licence either selling, buying or trading etc a firearm. Once you have your licence they can release it to you. I have had one couriered to me once I sent photographic evidence of the licence.

    Even buying ammo / moderators your only required to produce your licence.

    Some RFD that do mail order will require an image of the licence to complete the transaction. Thats the closest thing I've come across ref 'RFD copying you licence'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭ Lmklad


    Re read my comment specifically the bit about the fca2 being submitted. And I will have to 100% disagree with you.

    If you’ve submitted an FCA2 to cancel and it wasn’t that’s just incompetence on behalf of AGS. A grand notice is not a certificate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    A buddy of mine works in a RDF, he was telling me that they got an earful from the Gardaí about handing out guns on proof of payment. For example if someone paid by cheque they'd get a receipt however if it subsequently bounces, where are ya at?

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭ meathstevie


    Lmklad wrote: »
    The firearm is still registered to you unless you cancel it using an FCA2. If you don’t have a valid certificate the firearm is unlicensed.

    If you have your driving license lying on the bedside table or you have paid for your renewal etc etc and it’s on the way from NDLS do you have an entitlement to drive ? You definitely do but you won’t be able to produce your licence on the spot.

    When the Superintendent or Chief Superintendent has granted your licence and you have paid in the post office using the grant letter payment slip your certificate has been granted and paid for.

    Do you absolutely need the little yellow card ? If I was an RFD dealing with a regular customer I’ve known for a good while and was shown the grant letter and the post office receipt I’d be inclined to hand over the gun.

    If it was someone I’d dealt with for the first time and didn’t really know I’d need to see the actual certificate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭ The pigeon man


    It's slightly different. You are required by law to carry your license while driving.

    You are not required to carry your firearms license while possessing it.

    If a garda believes you are in possession of a firearm. He may ask for you to produce your firearm certificate and if you can't produce it he may ask for your name and address.


  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭ Lmklad


    It's slightly different. You are required by law to carry your license while driving.

    You are not required to carry your firearms license while possessing it.

    If a garda believes you are in possession of a firearm. He may ask for you to produce your firearm certificate and if you can't produce it he may ask for your name and address.

    He may also seize the firearm or ammunition unless you can produce a certificate on demand.

    Section 22 (4) Firearms Act 1925

    (4) In addition to any other powers conferred on him under this Act or otherwise, any member of the Gárda Síochána may stop and search and may also arrest without warrant any person whom he believes to be in possession of or to be using or carrying a firearm or ammunition in contravention of any of the provisions of this Act, and may search any such person, and, whether arresting him or not, *may seize and detain any firearm or ammunition in his possession or used or carried by him*


  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭ The pigeon man


    Thanks for the interesting quote.

    So judging by that the garda must have a reasonable suspicion that you are in contravention of the firearms act before the stop you.

    So I don't think if you are carrying a firearm around a field and they stop you. You cannot produce a cert that they can seize it. They must form a reasonable suspicion before the stop search and seize.


  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭ Lmklad


    Thanks for the interesting quote.

    So judging by that the garda must have a reasonable suspicion that you are in contravention of the firearms act before the stop you.

    So I don't think if you are carrying a firearm around a field and they stop you. You cannot produce a cert that they can seize it. They must form a reasonable suspicion before the stop search and seize.

    No. Simply being observed with a firearm is enough to allow the garda to intervene.

    Section 22(1) of the Act

    (1) Any member of the Gárda Síochána may demand from any person whom he observes or believes to be in possession of, using, or carrying a firearm or any ammunition, the production of his firearm certificate and if such person fails to produce and permit such member to read a firearm certificate authorising him to have possession of, use, or carry (as the case may require) such firearm or ammunition, such member of the Gárda Síochána may unless such person shows that he is entitled by law to have possession of, use, or carry (as the case may require) at that time and in that place such firearm or ammunition without having a firearm certificate therefor demand from such person his name and address.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,712 ✭✭✭ Rows Grower


    Lmklad wrote: »
    No. Simply being observed with a firearm is enough to allow the garda to intervene.

    Section 22(1) of the Act

    (1) Any member of the Gárda Síochána may demand from any person whom he observes or believes to be in possession of, using, or carrying a firearm or any ammunition, the production of his firearm certificate and if such person fails to produce and permit such member to read a firearm certificate authorising him to have possession of, use, or carry (as the case may require) such firearm or ammunition, such member of the Gárda Síochána may unless such person shows that he is entitled by law to have possession of, use, or carry (as the case may require) at that time and in that place such firearm or ammunition without having a firearm certificate therefor demand from such person his name and address.

    First you said they can seize the firearm if a licence is not produced on the spot and then you say they can demand the name and address, there's a big difference.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭ Lmklad


    First you said they can seize the firearm if a licence is not produced on the spot and then you say they can demand the name and address, there's a big difference.

    Both. I should have just posted the link to the Act but I was answering two different questions and so used two different subsections. The Act was written in 1925 so the language is flowery. Here’s the link to the full Act. Be aware is has been amended a number of time but the powers of AGS have not changed

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1925/act/17/section/22/enacted/en/html#sec22


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,712 ✭✭✭ Rows Grower


    Lmklad wrote: »
    Both. I should have just posted the link to the Act but I was answering two different questions and so used two different subsections. The Act was written in 1925 so the language is flowery. Here’s the link to the full Act. Be aware is has been amended a number of time but the powers of AGS have not changed

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1925/act/17/section/22/enacted/en/html#sec22

    My interpretation of that would be once you give your name and address if asked then you’re good to go.
    I could be totally wrong too, it wouldn’t be the first time.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    My interpretation of that would be once you give your name and address if asked then you’re good to go..
    Not quite.

    Section 22 of the principle act gives the Gardaí powers to stop, search, seize and even arrest without warrant anyone they suspect of breaching the firearms act.

    If a member of AGS observes you with or suspects you have a firearm they can ask to see your license. Remember this act is not just for license/legal firearm owners it was also aimed at combating illegal firearms and the possession of such. If you cannot produce a license for the member of AGS to verify you are licensed to possess the firearm or ammunition they can demand your name and address. If they suspect the name and address is false or if the person refuses to give it they then have the power to seize the firearm/ammunition and can arrest the person with the firearm/ammunition if they deem it necessary. It is at the members discretion.

    As was touched on above there have been 18 other Acts that either directly or indirectly amend the principle act, 65 statutory instruments and even 2 EU directives, but not one of them alters the powers of An Gardaí.

    As for the OPs question. A grant letter is just that, a letter stating that your application for a firearms license has been granted (approved). It is NOT a license. Paying for it in the post office and attaching the receipt of payment to the grant letter, while a 99.9% certainty the person will receive the actual license is still NOT a license in itself.

    As was also touched upon above if someone pays with a debit card or cheque or any other form other than cash and that payment method is later declined then the person has a grant letter and a now invalid receipt. So if an RFD hands out the firearm, or ammunition for that matter, without seeing the yellow card size license, they could find themselves in a world of trouble.

    A grant letter is NOT a license, even with the receipt (It why a grant letter does not have all the salient information on it like a license does such as permission for a suppressor, etc).

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  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ jb88


    If you have a grant letter, it means you have a licence granted on the Pulse system so the Gardaí regardless of what they say are covered.
    So are you from the second you pay your 80 euro which in turn goes to the Gardaí as well, Firearms cash goes to the "Social fund".
    A grant letter with a post office receipt is proof that you have a licence granted and on Pulse. (Gardaí cant say a word, if they do, ignore it, 99% of Gardaí know nothing about firearms legislation and even that 1% who have misinterpret it all the time.)

    Any RFD who wont give you a firearm presuming you have paid for it,

    Doesn't know the law.

    Hasn't bothered to read it.

    Is acting under their own interpretation.


    Proof of the licence, is all that is required, that can be your grant letter with a receipt or a licence itself, either way both are proof, and that's all you have to prove.


  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭ Lmklad


    jb88 wrote: »
    If you have a grant letter, it means you have a licence granted on the Pulse system so the Gardaí regardless of what they say are covered.
    So are you from the second you pay your 80 euro which in turn goes to the Gardaí as well, Firearms cash goes to the "Social fund".
    A grant letter with a post office receipt is proof that you have a licence granted and on Pulse. (Gardaí cant say a word, if they do, ignore it, 99% of Gardaí know nothing about firearms legislation and even that 1% who have misinterpret it all the time.)

    Any RFD who wont give you a firearm presuming you have paid for it,

    Doesn't know the law.

    Hasn't bothered to read it.

    Is acting under their own interpretation.


    Proof of the licence, is all that is required, that can be your grant letter with a receipt or a licence itself, either way both are proof, and that's all you have to prove.

    You are way off the mark, the fact you’ve said that the monies paid goes to the “social fund” shows you’ve an issue with AGS.

    When you receive a grant letter the status of your firearm on pulse states “grant letter” when you pay the fee the status changed to “paid”. When the certificate is printed and issued it changes to certified. Only when it reaches certified are you actually licenced to use, possess or carry a firearm. And only when you posses that certificate can you use it. There is a reason these documents are called application, grant letter and certificate. Only the yellow credit card style is a certificate.

    The only semi accurate thing you’ve said is the lack of knowledge amongst ordinary Gardai. If in doubt they will contact their Inspectors or Superintendents who will know the firearms legislation.

    Please read my previous posts referencing the Firearms Act 1925 as amended, particularly Section 2

    “2.—(1) Subject to the exceptions from this section hereinafter mentioned, it shall not be lawful for any person after the commencement of this Act to have in his possession, use, or carry any firearm or ammunition save in so far as such possession, use, or carriage is authorised by a firearm certificate granted under this Act and for the time being in force.”

    It specifically states you must have a certificate granted and for the time being in force, like I’ve said a grant notice is not a certificate, it is simply permission to purchase the certificate. Until you are in possession of that certificate you are not certified to use, carry or posses a firearm.


  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭ solarwinds


    The only proof of you having a licence is to have the actual licence in your hand.
    Your car can be taxed up to date, but if that little disc is not displayed on your window you can be still prosecuted for not displaying a valid disc.
    A letter is only a letter, a licence is a whole different article, if a letter and receipt were sufficient for the use of a firearm I would imagine there it would end, but it doesn't your little card is the licence nothing else.
    Just because you have always managed to do something does not mean it is right, it just means someone has decided to accept it as being good enough for them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭ meathstevie


    Lmklad wrote: »
    He may also seize the firearm or ammunition unless you can produce a certificate on demand.

    Section 22 (4) Firearms Act 1925

    (4) In addition to any other powers conferred on him under this Act or otherwise, any member of the Gárda Síochána may stop and search and may also arrest without warrant any person whom he believes to be in possession of or to be using or carrying a firearm or ammunition in contravention of any of the provisions of this Act, and may search any such person, and, whether arresting him or not, *may seize and detain any firearm or ammunition in his possession or used or carried by him*

    The clincher there is the word “belief” which is fundamentally different from “suspicion”.

    In real terms it means that the Garda carrying out the stop and search has to be just about certain that an offence is being committed.

    You wouldn’t have but very shaky grounds for arrest if a person check by phone or radio wasn’t conducted in this day and age of easy communications and all Pulse info readily at hand.

    Take for example a lad with a .223 with suppressor fitted in a case in the van is stopped at a checkpoint.

    Lad says, don’t freak out Garda there’s a case with a gun in the back. Garda says, Oh ok, pull in and show me please and have you the licence on you?

    Lad pulls in, says sorry the licence is at home; gives his details and Garda gets on the radio to check. All checks out and the lad is sent on his way with the advice of carrying his licence.

    Now exactly same circumstances but no “S” on the licence returned as the check is done. Lad will probably still go home but minus the rifle and suppressor which is now seized and a summons on the way. The next day he gets a call from his local station to tell him the shotgun licence is revoked as well and has to dispose of it ASAP.

    Now finally the last scenario, licence has the “s” on it, the Garda doesn’t carry out the checks and arrests the lad and seizes the rifle and suppressor and brings him in.

    When presenting the arrest to the member in charge at the station the member in charge asks for the circumstances of the arrest.

    The member in charge verifies the circumstances of the arrest and notices that no check has been carried out and quickly does same. The member in charge concludes that when arresting the Garda was acting on suspicion rather than belief and a quick check would have put the suspicion to bed without ever creating a belief an offence was committed. Lad gets his gun back and walks out of the station with the advice to carry his licence for everyone’s sake and peace of mind.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Now exactly same circumstances but no “S” on the licence returned as the check is done..
    Separate issue, but same topic.

    This very example is the reason i've told everyone that receives a letter instead of the "S" on the license to demand the "S". If there is no "S" on your license then it's not recorded on PULSE. A letter, while still legally authorising you to have the suppressor, is not recorded on PULSE so if you were stopped and they managed to contact someone in a station with access to PULSE it'd still show up as not authorised, even though you are.

    As for the rest of the scenario, we could speculate till the cows come home of all the circumstances surrounding being stopped, etc. and in a perfect world it'll all come out rosey. The problem is in my area of the 5 stations that were here 6 years ago only one is left and they only open 9am to 8pm. I know that is to the public, but the last time i spoke to a Garda he said he was called to a "scene" but took them 3.5 hours because no one in the COUNTY was available and they had to travel from a neighbouring county.

    Lastly the thread has gone a little of topic. This is more about collecting your firearm than being stopped with one. In all the news reports over the years i've only heard of a handful of cases of someone being stopped with legally held firearms. One was having a 30 round mag in a 10/22 on an unrestricted license, one for someone having too much ammo (over the limit of their license), another for a bullet clock.

    My point being the issues with legally held firearms are usually "minor" issues or administration issues. Gardaí know to use common sense and frankly where most people shoot is not on the beaten path so the chances of running into a Garda or a checkpoint are slim or at least infrequent.

    So its nowhere near as much of a problem as it can be made out to be. As we are all so fond of saying our sport is not only the safest in the country but the best one in terms of legality and obeying the laws, most of which is self policed. IOW the shooting community does not take chances on something that will bring trouble to their door.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ jb88


    Lmklad wrote: »
    You are way off the mark, the fact you’ve said that the monies paid goes to the “social fund” shows you’ve an issue with AGS.

    When you receive a grant letter the status of your firearm on pulse states “grant letter” when you pay the fee the status changed to “paid”. When the certificate is printed and issued it changes to certified. Only when it reaches certified are you actually licenced to use, possess or carry a firearm. And only when you posses that certificate can you use it. There is a reason these documents are called application, grant letter and certificate. Only the yellow credit card style is a certificate.

    The only semi accurate thing you’ve said is the lack of knowledge amongst ordinary Gardai. If in doubt they will contact their Inspectors or Superintendents who will know the firearms legislation.

    Please read my previous posts referencing the Firearms Act 1925 as amended, particularly Section 2

    “2.—(1) Subject to the exceptions from this section hereinafter mentioned, it shall not be lawful for any person after the commencement of this Act to have in his possession, use, or carry any firearm or ammunition save in so far as such possession, use, or carriage is authorised by a firearm certificate granted under this Act and for the time being in force.”

    It specifically states you must have a certificate granted and for the time being in force, like I’ve said a grant notice is not a certificate, it is simply permission to purchase the certificate. Until you are in possession of that certificate you are not certified to use, carry or posses a firearm.

    I don't have any issues with AGS, Quite the opposite actually, your reading too much into this.
    No where above does it state "Licence", a firearms grant letter is what it says it is, Firearm granted and on Pulse, once you have paid for it, then you can collect your firearm, anything else is an interpretation for the courts to decide not the Gardaí. When they issue a grant letter it shows on Pulse that the licence is granted and if you are stopped by any Gardaí and they have a problem with it they can call the gardai station and check if its valid on Pulse. Your not breaking the law and the Gardaí don't make it they just enforce it.

    Don't expect any Gardaí right up to Chief Super level to have any knowledge of Firearms legislation, you will be shocked, scared and surprised all at the one time as I have.
    Gardaí calling other Gardaí for clarification on something often means two wrong answers and the last organisation I would ever ask in relation to any legal matter is the Gardaí.

    Notwithstanding the Gardaí do good work and I am thankful to them in many ways, but they for the vast majority, 99% inc firearms officers don't, know and the amount of false and misleading information I have seen, heard and read that they have given out about firearms in the last 15 years is astounding.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭ Zimmerframe


    Didn't realise there were many replies. Anyway, I'm all sorted.
    McBrides which I assume is a large shop, says :

    "If you have been granted a license, you will then have to go to your local post office and pay the fee for this licence, for example €80 for a three year gun license.
    Once you have this proof of payment, the firearm can be collected from mcbrides.ie in Athlone, on presentation of this document or you can wait until you get your licence, i.e. three to four working days, and collect the firearm from us then."

    so I presume, that they would know the law.


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