Cap reform convergence

orchard farm

Sacrolyte wrote: »

If a lad had 20 entitlements on 20 ha a few years ago but now has 20 entitlements but is claiming 40 ha would he be entitled to extra entitlements now or does it not work like that?

No unfortunly it doesnt work like that.unless the lad is a young trained farmer setting up he can apply to National reserve otherwise hed have to buy or lease the other 20 if he wants to increase his payments

Dinzee Conlee

orchard farm wrote: »

No unfortunly it doesnt work like that.unless the lad is a young trained farmer setting up he can apply to National reserve otherwise hed have to buy or lease the other 20 if he wants to increase his payments

Would it work the same as the last time - where the euro value of the 20ha would be split over the 40ha.
So you end up with 40, but at a lower value.

Dinzee Conlee

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Everyone getting a fair chance is surely a positive for all farmers?

Yeah, I think given the options we have, it is Mayo...

orchard farm

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Would it work the same as the last time - where the euro value of the 20ha would be split over the 40ha.
So you end up with 40, but at a lower value.

As far as i know I dont think they will be doin the same as before.no new entitlements but shur who knows at this stage the elite minority are tryin to have there way to the detrement of the majoritity.

MIKEKC

Deleted User wrote: »

No.

Because, there was a very Irish thing called the "Polluter Pays" principle, where by the farmer got paid each year for sheep he had destocked.

This was more bollocks, because, and to be blunt about it, the lads doing the damage were farming wooly rats. She'd be so much at risk of malnourished if she went in lamb death was likely.

The other farmer, the one with the right ideas and who was trying, but wasn't farming for the cheque in the post, or at least not solely for it. Men like my father, who were selling lambs (& beef) to two local butchers for over £50/lamb in 1990 (iirc). As opposed to **** stained rats of lambs that could slip out through the gaps in pallets. That farmer, as reward for destocking 30% of his good flock (and I remember my Dad in tears, selecting *any* 30% of the best flock as he'd already sold what he didn't want previously) lost genuine income from his farm which he never recovered.

So, farmers on the same hill, got treated differentlty.

Let me enlighten you about GLAS. Each commonage had to pick a Department of Agriculture approved commonage planner. I, by chance, happened to meet the young lad my planner sent out to assess two of my commonages. It was evening and he hadn't an hour of daylight left. It would take him a few hours just to walk the place - not counting any assessment.

He looked up at the hill, ara I suppose it's all like that. I told him no, actually it's quite diverse and that he didn't have time to walk it properly.

That was the crock of **** my plan is based on.

And the best part! I'm liable for it, because the Department don't nor didn't want to know that once that particular planner got money, he knew he had ALL of the power over the farmer and acted that way.

You say that farmers continued to get paid for sheep they had destocked. I checked my records, got paid for full amount in 2002, but only got paid for amount that I could keep after decstocking was taken into account in 2003 and 2004.As I said previously the full quote was taken into account for the next CAP

wrangler

wrangler wrote: »

Haven't I often told you about teh competence of the civil (dis)service
Listening to The week in Politics there now it looks as if the IFA have the support of the minister.
He says the budget is increased by 11% so fair dues to IFA for pushing that.
It's in the lap of the Gods now and still could go anyway

Let's keep things factual, the 11% is NATIONAL (had already been delivered) for things like REAP not to do with talks in Brussels on CAP and not to do with convergence, redistribution, or extra monies coming from EU.

Plus it's a pittance, what happened to the national €3bn plus?

As for the week in politics, it's rte, hardly neutral, from the make up of the panel to the antics of the presenter allowing one side say as they like and shouting the other side down.

MIKEKC wrote: »

You say that farmers continued to get paid for sheep they had destocked. I checked my records, got paid for full amount in 2002, but only got paid for amount that I could keep after decstocking was taken into account in 2003 and 2004.As I said previously the full quote was taken into account for the next CAP

You aren't the only farmer in the country however. Others, got paid their headage for almost 15 years after the sheep were destocked and gone. Some built sheds to keep sheep off hills over Winter. Usually around November mass inspections occurred including multiple teams of ground inspections, plus fixed and rotary wing aircraft "spotting".

If you happened to be a neighbour with the right idea in those areas, you got screwed, as your income wasn't solely based on headage.

Donald Trump

orchard farm wrote: »

No unfortunly it doesnt work like that.unless the lad is a young trained farmer setting up he can apply to National reserve otherwise hed have to buy or lease the other 20 if he wants to increase his payments

I think the national reserve is also open to new entrants once they are also trained. i.e. they don't have to fulfill the "young" part. Am I correct in that?

wrangler

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's keep things factual, the 11% is NATIONAL (had already been delivered) for things like REAP not to do with talks in Brussels on CAP and not to do with convergence, redistribution, or extra monies coming from EU.

Plus it's a pittance, what happened to the national €3bn plus?

As for the week in politics, it's rte, hardly neutral, from the make up of the panel to the antics of the presenter allowing one side say as they like and shouting the other side down.



You aren't the only farmer in the country however. Others, got paid their headage for almost 15 years after the sheep were destocked and gone. Some built sheds to keep sheep off hills over Winter. Usually around November mass inspections occurred including multiple teams of ground inspections, plus fixed and rotary wing aircraft "spotting".

If you happened to be a neighbour with the right idea in those areas, you got screwed, as your income wasn't solely based on headage.

Probably shows the level of interest I have in it now, It'll be very bad for me no matter what way it goes

wrangler

wrangler wrote: »

Probably shows the level of interest I have in it now, It'll be very bad for me no matter what way it goes

Spent the day island hopping in the Aran Islands, I have about the same level of interest in it after a bit of "real life".

Bass Reeves

This is going to cost FF seats in the west of Ireland. FF TD's, such as O'Cuiv and the minister himself promoted convergence and front loading now he is actively fighting against it.

Along the west coast from West Cork to Donegal FF &FG holds a good few seats. However FG's come from the small and midsized business sectors those hotel, Restaurant and B&B owners. FF is more dependent on these in the farming sectors. This will lose them votes and SF are breeding down there neck.

The week in politics have a poor selection of contributors. Verona Murphy and McConalogue are both sharp operators, the Sinn Fein contributor is really on for another issue on the Week in Politics. If I was. FF TD along the west coast I be worried especially if I was holding a second or third seat in a constituency.

Sacrolyte

orchard farm wrote: »

No unfortunly it doesnt work like that.unless the lad is a young trained farmer setting up he can apply to National reserve otherwise hed have to buy or lease the other 20 if he wants to increase his payments

So if the lad farming is leasing in the entitlements will the “armchair guy” who is leasing out still get to keep his bps.

Donald Trump

Figures for 2020 are now up the CAP beneficiaries database for anyone who wants to have a nosey!

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/revealed-top-10-cap-direct-payment-beneficiaries-for-2020/

Bass Reeves

Just up on Agriland the top ten family farms payments

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/revealed-top-10-cap-direct-payment-beneficiaries-for-2020/

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Just up on Agriland the top ten family farms payments

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/revealed-top-10-cap-direct-payment-beneficiaries-for-2020/

Just as well I'm no.11 whew!

Bullocks

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Just up on Agriland the top ten family farms payments

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/revealed-top-10-cap-direct-payment-beneficiaries-for-2020/

Be a stretch to call some of them family farms!

Bullocks

Bullocks wrote: »

Be a stretch to call some of them family farms!

One of them isn't too far from you or I.

Donald Trump

Breakdown of top recipients by county here https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/who-received-the-highest-cap-direct-payments-per-county-in-2020/

You can look it up directly in the online database yourself too

Donald Trump

Bullocks wrote: »

Be a stretch to call some of them family farms!

A lot aren't but some of the higher ones still might be!


I know of a big family of brothers who, if they formed a company and added up their individual payments, they probably would be near enough up the top on the list. There are a good few of them in it. They do farm together in terms of machinery etc.

mayota

I’ve no problem with those payments but how are they getting so much in ANC ?

mayota

mayota wrote: »

how are they getting so much in ANC ?

I was wondering the same...

So I made a call, and really only one option thought of on that call which was, that that farmer or entity may have got ANC back payments in 2020. We couldn't figure a way to get multiple payments to one individual or entity.

There's also something else to keep in mind on ANC, and I'm not saying it applies to the question at all, but "offshore" islands attract a higher rate of ANC than anywhere else, and deservedly so.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I was wondering the same...

So I made a call, and really only one option thought of on that call which was, that that farmer or entity may have got ANC back payments in 2020. We couldn't figure a way to get multiple payments to one individual or entity.

There's also something else to keep in mind on ANC, and I'm not saying it applies to the question at all, but "offshore" islands attract a higher rate of ANC than anywhere else, and deservedly so.

By the way

If anyone here experiences a situation where they for whatever reason don't get a payment in the year you were supposed to, please still account for that payment in that years taxes.

You're allowed to do that, but you're not allowed to do it retrospectively afaik.

As always, check with your tax advisor as some randomer on the internet isn't the best source of information

Gman1987

Donald Trump wrote: »

A lot aren't but some of the higher ones still might be!


I know of a big family of brothers who, if they formed a company and added up their individual payments, they probably would be near enough up the top on the list. There are a good few of them in it. They do farm together in terms of machinery etc.

Are you allowed make multiple SFP applications? I see where there are payments made out under the farmers name and then payments made under two of his company names also. He would be one that would have been on that list if they were all combined.

Castlekeeper

Just on historic swings and roundabouts, my father lost out on the quota of 10 -12 cows due to an infertile bull in the year before the reference year. I would have lost a good few pounds in the 99- 02 run on beef cattle. 98 was a bad year hereabouts so we'd have been tight in silage. I sold bullocks in November rather than finishing them as normal, thus missing the perpetual slaughter and 22 month on them. I got caught again subsequently in 02 by selling them as finished bulls to export through a local mart. Unfortunately, and unbeknownst to me at the time, they were exported through the North, meaning I again missed out on the slaughter premium, the crafty dealers probably got it.

In the opposite scenario I know a man who got locked up with TB the spring of the milk quota, and couldn't sell a bunch of heifers, that worked out alright in the end. I know another who had a good sized suckler herd during the ref years, sold the sucklers and the quota for a good whack a few years after, and then started dairying as a new entrant with a good chunk of free quota.

I'm not complaining, we're doing fine in life, but sometimes these things are just a bit of chance, not me good you bad scenarios.

wrangler

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Just on historic swings and roundabouts, my father lost out on the quota of 10 -12 cows due to an infertile bull in the year before the reference year. I would have lost a good few pounds in the 99- 02 run on beef cattle. 98 was a bad year hereabouts so we'd have been tight in silage. I sold bullocks in November rather than finishing them as normal, thus missing the perpetual slaughter and 22 month on them. I got caught again subsequently in 02 by selling them as finished bulls to export through a local mart. Unfortunately, and unbeknownst to me at the time, they were exported through the North, meaning I again missed out on the slaughter premium, the crafty dealers probably got it.

In the opposite scenario I know a man who got locked up with TB the spring of the milk quota, and couldn't sell a bunch of heifers, that worked out alright in the end. I know another who had a good sized suckler herd during the ref years, sold the sucklers and the quota for a good whack a few years after, and then started dairying as a new entrant with a good chunk of free quota.

I'm not complaining, we're doing fine in life, but sometimes these things are just a bit of chance, not me good you bad scenarios.

It was the same always with the EU, a friend had 60 heifers ready to milk the year of the milk quota, he had to get rid. I had a rig yearling that nearly doubled my suckler quota. If you were oneside of a line you were made up, the other side you were ****ed..

MIKEKC

wrangler wrote: »

It was the same always with the EU, a friend had 60 heifers ready to milk the year of the milk quota, he had to get rid. I had a rig yearling that nearly doubled my suckler quota. If you were oneside of a line you were made up, the other side you were ****ed..[/QUO
The suckler quota was easy enough come by. You could buy cows the year it came in. Did it here, Fresians qualified the first year this was changed I think the next year and all fresians had to go. Wiped out the first years profit
.

kevthegaff

Will the new system take into account stock numbers

Bass Reeves

kevthegaff wrote: »

Will the new system take into account stock numbers

No ANC is the only payment to take account of stock numbers and that is minimal. How could a tillage or veg farmer have stock numbers.

From what I see it's IFA and ICMSA that are mostly against Convergence and greening rules. ICSA is sitting on the fence looking for it to be more directed away from dairying. Hill farmer very active on Convergence.

lalababa

If payments were to be based on production , then we would be back to intervention.
Payments are there to keep a balanced production belt, not too much and not too little. A secondary aspect is to keep the countryside somewhat populated. The new game in town is sustainability/ less pollution and eventually organics.
Production is a bit high at the moment and payments a bit uneven. So now there is convergence to spread it around more evenly. Based on a mix of land area/historic headage/actual headage and environmental management.
Coveney scuppered the 1st round.....making those on low payments lose out.
But the writing is now on the wall.

Young95

I see front loading of payments is being pushed for in Europe. I wonder how much per top up per hectare would be worth ?

Say my name

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Just up on Agriland the top ten family farms payments

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/revealed-top-10-cap-direct-payment-beneficiaries-for-2020/

Who's Hans Weirner Meis?

Google search throws up Maam metal recovery company.

And what are these environmental payments people/companies are getting?

(directed at anyone that'll answer not just Bass.)