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Cap reform convergence

  • 23-01-2020 2:43pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭ orchard farm


    I see the inhfa are holding a serious of meetings on future cap reforms and redistribution of high entitlements to farmers with lowest entitlements mainly affecting farmers in the west,just wondering whats peoples opinions on 100%convergence and will it be an election issue


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭ Sacrolyte


    I don’t think it will be much of an election issue. Sure isn’t RTE telling everybody we will be getting fed out of a lab shortly.
    As for convergence I think at this stage that every farmer should have the right to be on an equal footing entitlement wise.
    And just to say I’m someone in the middle so will have very little affect on me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭ Panch18


    I see the inhfa are holding a serious of meetings on future cap reforms and redistribution of high entitlements to farmers with lowest entitlements mainly affecting farmers in the west,just wondering whats peoples opinions on 100%convergence and will it be an election issue

    Isn't it happening already shur

    every year there's another couple thousand taken off it

    Can't see it even being mentioned anywhere in the election


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭ Cavanjack


    On average payments here. Won’t effect me. Anyway Can’t see why lads should be getting huge payments for the way their father farmed 20 years ago. At the same time why give the same payment to 10 acres of unproductive land as to 10 acres of top quality land.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭ wrangler


    Cavanjack wrote: »
    On average payments here. Won’t effect me. Anyway Can’t see why lads should be getting huge payments for the way their father farmed 20 years ago. At the same time why give the same payment to 10 acres of unproductive land as to 10 acres of top quality land.

    It doesn't make sense either to take payments from drystock farmers to give to dairy farmers,
    Even dairy farmers that have good entitlements based on 2013 cap reform acreage will change to below average entitlements when divided on their 2020 acreage as a high percentage have increased their acreage since,
    INHFA would need to be careful what they wish for,


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,881 ✭✭✭ Base price


    Cavanjack wrote: »
    On average payments here. Won’t effect me. Anyway Can’t see why lads should be getting huge payments for the way their father farmed 20 years ago. At the same time why give the same payment to 10 acres of unproductive land as to 10 acres of top quality land.
    I worked bloody hard in those years to build up a suckler herd - commercial & pbr's. I don't have huge payments but they are been eroded every year. GLAS is offsetting some of the loss but there is a cost with it.

    I know of young farmers around here benefiting from the national reserve thingie, they are living far away from home whilst Mammy & Daddy are still doing all the farm work :mad:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭ Grueller


    Base price wrote: »
    I worked bloody hard in those years to build up a suckler herd - commercial & pbr's. I don't have huge payments but they are been eroded every year. GLAS is offsetting some of the loss but there is a cost with it.

    I know of young farmers around here benefiting from the national reserve thingie, they are living far away from home whilst Mammy & Daddy are still doing all the farm work :mad:

    And I know of older retired farmers getting their entitlements handed back to them with land leased. Swings and roundabouts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,159 ✭✭✭ alps


    The whole thing is a mess..

    Scrap it all and start again..


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭ wrangler


    Base price wrote: »
    I worked bloody hard in those years to build up a suckler herd - commercial & pbr's. I don't have huge payments but they are been eroded every year. GLAS is offsetting some of the loss but there is a cost with it.

    I know of young farmers around here benefiting from the national reserve thingie, they are living far away from home whilst Mammy & Daddy are still doing all the farm work :mad:

    I count them worse than sofa farmers like myself, I don't deserve to keep my entitlements but neither do they either


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭ Grueller


    wrangler wrote: »
    I count them worse than sofa farmers like myself, I don't deserve to keep my entitlements but neither do they either

    All of them, or just those that are not on the farm daily?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭ wrangler


    Grueller wrote: »
    And I know of older retired farmers getting their entitlements handed back to them with land leased. Swings and roundabouts.

    I'd bet that the next CAP reform will finish that


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,881 ✭✭✭ Base price


    Grueller wrote: »
    And I know of older retired farmers getting their entitlements handed back to them with land leased. Swings and roundabouts.
    And the majority of the land around here is leased by young farmers who outbid their older counterparts cause they (young farmers) get a Government/EU top up thingie.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭ wrangler


    Grueller wrote: »
    All of them, or just those that are not on the farm daily?

    Those farming ''on paper'' not on the farm daily


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,881 ✭✭✭ Base price


    wrangler wrote: »
    I count them worse than sofa farmers like myself, I don't deserve to keep my entitlements but neither do they either
    At least you worked in the past to earn your entitlements.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭ wrangler


    Base price wrote: »
    At least you worked in the past to earn your entitlements.

    Subsidies should only go to those farming. a percentage will come to landlords anyway


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,159 ✭✭✭ alps


    wrangler wrote: »
    Subsidies should only go to those farming. a percentage will come to landlords anyway

    +1


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭ Panch18


    Out of interest, what do ye think would be a good way forward??


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,907 ✭✭✭✭ _Brian


    Hardly an election topic.

    If you asked 99% of voters what convergence was they’d think it was a medical condition and you’d need medication to cure it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭ wrangler


    _Brian wrote: »
    Hardly an election topic.

    If you asked 99% of voters what convergence was they’d think it was a medical condition and you’d need medication to cure it.

    Those below average payment/ha want convergence, those above average payment/ha don't, simples


  • Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭ JohnChadwick


    Anyone know how will convergence work.

    Like, if you are on low value entitlements are you just guaranteed to get an increase in value, regardless of how many acres you have?

    [Want to know if it's simple as the previous post above]


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,224 ✭✭✭ J.O. Farmer


    Anyone know how will convergence work.

    Like, if you are on low value entitlements are you just guaranteed to get an increase in value, regardless of how many acres you have?

    [Want to know if it's simple as the previous post above]

    Pretty much how worked in the this CAP. It'll probably be similar in the next one. The below link explains it.

    https://www.ifa.ie/basic-payment-scheme/


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭ wrangler


    Pretty much how worked in the this CAP. It'll probably be similar in the next one. The below link explains it.

    https://www.ifa.ie/basic-payment-scheme/

    Unless our lobbyists are very good, the average payment will be a lot lower than the present.
    The budget is being cut and there's more money being directed towards the environment.
    Anything that was ever directed towards the environment usually meant a cut in production . The good REPs schemes are long gone, REAP scheme is a sign of things to come


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭ Dinzee Conlee


    wrangler wrote: »
    Unless our lobbyists are very good, the average payment will be a lot lower than the present.
    The budget is being cut and there's more money being directed towards the environment.
    Anything that was ever directed towards the environment usually meant a cut in production . The good REPs schemes are long gone, REAP scheme is a sign of things to come

    Was there talk of front loading entitlements?

    Or was that more something I either dreamed or maybe something I read in some ones election manifesto, which isn't worth a while pile :D

    I have above average entitlements, but only 7ha... so front loading would suit me ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭ wrangler


    Was there talk of front loading entitlements?

    Or was that more something I either dreamed or maybe something I read in some ones election manifesto, which isn't worth a while pile :D

    I have above average entitlements, but only 7ha... so front loading would suit me ;)

    I saw that too
    I'll probably be only left with five entitlements so front loading would suit me as well.
    In the last CAP reform there was no similarities between what was leaked and what eventually happened


  • Registered Users Posts: 777 ✭✭✭ older by the day


    wrangler wrote: »
    I saw that too
    I'll probably be only left with five entitlements so front loading would suit me as well.
    In the last CAP reform there was no similarities between what was leaked and what eventually happened

    We should probably look at what the most prominent ifa lads are doing at the moment. The Last reference years they were building up there subsides like mad .


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭ wrangler


    We should probably look at what the most prominent ifa lads are doing at the moment. The Last reference years they were building up there subsides like mad .

    Weren't we all, it's the only way of increasing profit. but can't have any more entitlements than you have hectares.........


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭ kevthegaff


    What's front loading


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭ Grueller


    kevthegaff wrote: »
    What's front loading

    Higher level of payment on the first 10 ha for example. Lower rate on the rest. Helps the smaller guys.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,145 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    Base price wrote: »
    I know of young farmers around here benefiting from the national reserve thingie, they are living far away from home whilst Mammy & Daddy are still doing all the farm work :mad:


    How do you know where they got them from?


    All you can see is that they are claiming them. If their parents were actively farming then they wouldn't have naked land for them to claim entitlements on. They could lease naked land, but then that is hard enough got too.



    It is also possible that they parents put some of their entitlements in the child's name for either tax reasons or for future planning permission reasons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭ wrangler


    How do you know where they got them from?


    All you can see is that they are claiming them. If their parents were actively farming then they wouldn't have naked land for them to claim entitlements on. They could lease naked land, but then that is hard enough got too.



    It is also possible that they parents put some of their entitlements in the child's name for either tax reasons or for future planning permission reasons.

    there is a partnership thing too where the parents entitlements are topped up by up to 3000/yr and a substantial tax reduction if the son/daughter farms with them. I don't know the details but I know people that are doing it and the sons/daughters are doing feck all on the farm, probably spending it in Coppers.
    I think one of the conditions is that the farm is signed over in five years.
    I was tolerating losing my entitlements until that racket started


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭ farawaygrass


    wrangler wrote: »
    there is a partnership thing too where the parents entitlements are topped up by up to 3000/yr and a substantial tax reduction if the son/daughter farms with them. I don't know the details but I know people that are doing it and the sons/daughters are doing feck all on the farm, probably spending it in Coppers.
    I think one of the conditions is that the farm is signed over in five years.
    I was tolerating losing my entitlements until that racket started

    It’s not great in fairness. BUT it’s also not fair that people who farmed intensively at the right times, 20 years ok, are getting bigger grants now and might be doing feck all. You have defended this before, saying anyone any good knew to build up entitlements. The whole grant system is skewed towards lads now who farmed or who’s father farmed intensively then. Often we see the next generation who come along who are making a great go of it after maybe their father didn’t run a good operation. It’s unfair that they are penalised as such.
    I don’t know what the answer is though. Production based won’t come back for a long time, if ever.
    When based per ha, will the lad with 200. Acres of a mountain get the same as a lad with 200 acres of prime lowland?


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