Confused buyers being rushed into EVs

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

EVs aren't suitable for a lot of women, particularly those who need to tow or can't afford a new car.

Not all women, mind. I guess some women will buy them. But we shouldn't be rushing women into buying EVs

I don't normally have to read a post twice. You do have your full wits about you very first thing in the morning, fair play

krissovo

elperello wrote: »

Yes towing is the main reason. Price of course is another. There are a lot of people on low incomes in rural areas whose only means of transport is a car. I'm talking about people who think 2-3k is a lot to spend.

The discussion was in the context of suitability for rural dwellers. (ref. Toyota CEO in link).

My statement is mine and not for you to dictate. By all means make a case for suburban folk if you like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zNrJ42Oqfs

KCross

krissovo wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zNrJ42Oqfs

Now there's an edge case that Elon hasnt thought about for his Full Self Driving algorithm!

...Ghost...

elperello wrote: »

Yes towing is the main reason. Price of course is another. There are a lot of people on low incomes in rural areas whose only means of transport is a car. I'm talking about people who think 2-3k is a lot to spend.

The discussion was in the context of suitability for rural dwellers. (ref. Toyota CEO in link).

My statement is mine and not for you to dictate. By all means make a case for suburban folk if you like.

If towing is the main reason, then it would be a small number and is not restricted to rural dwellers.

Up until recently, people were saying that range was the issue for rural dwellers. Now it's tow bars. Next, it will be that the lack of diesel particulates are resulting in better quality beef and the farmers are not getting a fair price.

EVs are now suitable for most people. A lot needs to be done with regards to access to charging. Older models can have battery upgrades soon enough (currently available in NL) bringing the price/range issue to a more acceptable level for peasants like me.

Ryath

Black_Knight wrote: »

3. Variety. Yet to see a Passat equivalent. Audi and Jag have big EVs, but falter at point 1 you made

Its coming, it's large estate is what I'm really waiting for.

Only a concept for now but we should see it in 2022 ID5
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-la-motor-show/volkswagen-id-space-vizzion-previews-id-5-crossover-estate

elperello

...Ghost... wrote: »

If towing is the main reason, then it would be a small number and is not restricted to rural dwellers.

Up until recently, people were saying that range was the issue for rural dwellers. Now it's tow bars. Next, it will be that the lack of diesel particulates are resulting in better quality beef and the farmers are not getting a fair price.

EVs are now suitable for most people. A lot needs to be done with regards to access to charging. Older models can have battery upgrades soon enough (currently available in NL) bringing the price/range issue to a more acceptable level for peasants like me.

The reason we are discussing rural drivers is that the OP's link included quotes from the CEO of Toyota Ireland about rural Ireland.

Whatever the number is the fact is that no viable EV alternative exists for them. That's not a criticism of EVs and alternatives will become available over time.

Of course some urban based drivers need a towbar too.

I'm not sure that range was ever a sound argument against EV's in rural areas.
For a commute to work or trips to the local town the EV is a suitable alternative and has been pointed out home charging points are actually easier to accommodate in the country.

I agree that the battery upgrade market will continue to grow.

liamog

elperello wrote: »

The reason we are discussing rural drivers is that the OP's link included quotes from the CEO of Toyota Ireland about rural Ireland.

We all agreed the CEO of Toyota Ireland was incorrect, EVs are suitable for people in rural Ireland. However there is not much choice of EVs for people who require the ability to tow.

Some rural living people need to tow (just as some suburban dwellers do) but not all vehicles used by people living in rural areas have that requirement.

creedp

elperello wrote: »

I agree that the battery upgrade market will continue to grow.

I hope so as I have an 'old' 2016 L30 with 115k km and already down a bar so I'm not sure how long it will be before its range deteriorates significantly and I will either have to shift it for small money or look at the feasibility of refurbishing / replacing the battery.

At least with the newer longer range EV's, even if they suffer significant battery degradation, they will still have a reasonable range to play with.

unkel

creedp wrote: »

I hope so as I have an 'old' 2016 L30 with 115k km and already down a bar so I'm not sure how long it will be before its range deteriorates significantly and I will either have to shift it for small money or look at the feasibility of refurbishing / replacing the battery.

Would you really spend €7k on top of your L30 that you could sell for €13k, so you end up having a car worth €15k?

Or would it be wiser to spend that €20k on a second hand Ioniq or L40?

Not a rational decision to upgrade your battery, unless the cost to upgrade comes down radically...

creedp

unkel wrote: »

Would you really spend €7k on top of your L30 that you could sell for €13k, so you end up having a car worth €15k?

Or would it be wiser to spend that €20k on a second hand Ioniq or L40?

Not a rational decision to upgrade your battery, unless the cost to upgrade comes down radically...

Oh I agree completely. When I'm talking about refurbishing / replacement of the battery I mean when it becomes reasonably priced. €7k would be madness. In any case I think a 2 year old Ioniq would suit me better that a 100% SOH L30 as a lot of my driving is on national roads / motorway which really don't suit the L30.

As a matter of interest what the mileage currently on your Ioniq and what range are you getting in this weather?

I'm struggling to get 120km to absolute empty at this stage something which is not recommended for ones mental health!!

meeeeh

liamog wrote: »

So basically you reckon that EVs sometimes aren't suitable for use in rural areas, but can't actually provide us a reason beyond towing.
If the towing requirement is the only reason, then the rural/suburban distinction isn't required.

Your statement should be 'EVs arent suitable for people who need to tow'

I might be wrong but EV's are not as great at higher speeds. I would say about 80% of the driving I do is on the roads with speed limits of 80 or more. I would actually consider EV if my car wasn't main family car but as a family car the ones I could afford are too small and ugly. We tend to drive around the country a bit, we have easy access to empty motorways and driving there with one eye on speedo and battery use just isn't fun. Nowadays if you live in the country chances are you will be doing a nice mileage on fast roads just to ferry kids to a rugby blitz. For the same reason I despise crossovers with passion.

meeeeh

unkel wrote: »

Would you really spend €7k on top of your L30 that you could sell for €13k, so you end up having a car worth €15k?

Or would it be wiser to spend that €20k on a second hand Ioniq or L40?

Not a rational decision to upgrade your battery, unless the cost to upgrade comes down radically...

Wouldn't it be more environmentally friendly?

unkel

creedp wrote: »

As a matter of interest what the mileage currently on your Ioniq and what range are you getting in this weather?

42k km, range at the moment is 190-200km. And any day over 11C or so it's at about 210km. As always, I immediately add (before anybody doesn't believe me again :rolleyes:) that I do very little sustained 130km/h driving, it's almost all of it in the Dublin area.

meeeeh wrote: »

Wouldn't it be more environmentally friendly?

Why would it?

meeeeh

Isn't car production actually very energy intensive and it's actually very energy efficient and environmentally friendly to use your car as long as possible.

graememk

meeeeh wrote: »

Isn't car production actually very energy intensive and it's actually very energy efficient and environmentally friendly to use your car as long as possible.

Yes, but when you sell a car is it scrapped?

Whatever range is left might not be good enough for your needs, but it might be fine as a 2nd car for someone else. Maybe the school run or out to the golf club.

It will be interesting to see the end of life reuse of the batteries in 10 years time in solar storage etc

As for the towing argument, ok they can't switch with the current crop of ev's but there isn't even a Passat equivalent out yet either

What's a new automatic Passat going for these days? 45-50k?

unkel

meeeeh wrote: »

Isn't car production actually very energy intensive and it's actually very energy efficient and environmentally friendly to use your car as long as possible.

The cars I suggested (€20k Ioniq or L40) are second hand, not new cars

kippy

unkel wrote: »

Would you really spend €7k on top of your L30 that you could sell for €13k, so you end up having a car worth €15k?

Or would it be wiser to spend that €20k on a second hand Ioniq or L40?

Not a rational decision to upgrade your battery, unless the cost to upgrade comes down radically...

The figures here are eye watering. This is the main issue for many.

optimal

creedp wrote: »

I hope so as I have an 'old' 2016 L30 with 115k km and already down a bar so I'm not sure how long it will be before its range deteriorates significantly and I will either have to shift it for small money or look at the feasibility of refurbishing / replacing the battery.

At least with the newer longer range EV's, even if they suffer significant battery degradation, they will still have a reasonable range to play with.

Interesting. I have an L30, late 2015 with 116k on it also and still have all 12 bars. (Probably jinxing myself now 😀). Yesterday I drove to Dublin (100km) and based on that I would expect about 135 km range. Reverse journey I would have got no more than 110 km Max. No more than Leafspeed. (BTW, lots of us give out about chargepoint hoggers but yesterday a gentleman in a BMW i3 gave way to me at cloghran FC and used the type 2 which was a big help, so thanks to him.)
120 km/h in the Leaf would bring it down to 75-80 km on a bad day heading into some wind. I do like the Leaf though and the ability to have a warm car waiting when I leave work....

fricatus

meeeeh wrote: »

Isn't car production actually very energy intensive and it's actually very energy efficient and environmentally friendly to use your car as long as possible.

The CO2 payback period for a new EV is no more than about 3-4 years. It's not an exact science, but this video does a very good job of running you through the numbers:

fricatus

More from the CEO of Toyota Ireland here:

Indo wrote:

"We are proud to say that Toyota is already delivering the lowest CO2 output of any car brand in Ireland. In fact, our average CO2 output across our range in Ireland was 17pc lower than the top 10 best-selling car brands," he added.

Hmmm... the lowest CO2 output, eh? Is Tesla's higher, or are they not a "car brand in Ireland"?

unkel

Not surprising their emissions are relatively low. They mainly sell small and even smaller cars.

Where is that list with the CO2 outputs of the top 10 selling car brands in Ireland though?

D13exile

Despite paying two thousand euro to repair my 9 year old diesel Qashqai recently (oil pump, clutch, wheel bearing), that was still far cheaper than shelling out on a new EV. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to purchase a new BEV mainly to have one less car belching exhaust fumes into our ever more polluted atmosphere. However I can't and probably never will be able to afford one new and I'd be very hesitant to purchase a second hand one due to possible battery degradation. Plus my daily commute to work is 100kms and I have 5 kids. Finding a BEV that can carry 6 people and not only do the daily commute but the evening trips to bring kids to football training, Girl Guides, dancing etc would not be possible at the moment. Maybe in a few years when prices come down or second hand models come with new batteries, then I'll consider taking the plunge. For now, I'll be holding onto my Nissan "Cashcow" until I can purchase a hybrid/PHEV.

n97 mini

Toyota chief criticised for self-charging hybrid claim by Hyundai

https://m.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/toyota-chief-criticised-for-self-charging-hybrid-claim-by-hyundai-38882594.html

ethernet

n97 mini wrote: »

Toyota chief criticised for self-charging hybrid claim by Hyundai

https://m.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/toyota-chief-criticised-for-self-charging-hybrid-claim-by-hyundai-38882594.html

Ugh. Good on Hyundai.

Toyota spouting more drivel in the Irish Times today as well:

“In Ireland, 90 per cent of our new cars are hybrid, and they’re in zero emissions mode 62 per cent of the time. Even if you said there were in [electric mode] 50 per cent of the time, it’s like having a 45 per cent mix of our cars are EV. So if we are the number one car selling in Ireland, then you should think about it that 45 per cent of our fleet is EV. According to Tormey: “People say ‘you don’t have [full] EVs but in a way we do . . . when it comes to emissions.”

(https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/toyota-prepares-to-motor-into-brave-new-electric-future-1.4141950)

unkel

In many countries the "self charging" ads are banned because they are misleading. But no, not in Ireland. And Toyota gets a lot of media coverage from what seem to be overly friendly journalists, or am I imagining things? I guess Toyota spends a fortune on newspaper ads in this country?

It's no surprise people are moving to independent new media these days for objective and reliable reviews...

Mickeroo

unkel wrote: »

In many countries the "self charging" ads are banned because they are misleading. But no, not in Ireland. And Toyota gets a lot of media coverage from what seem to be overly friendly journalists, or am I imagining things? I guess Toyota spends a fortune on newspaper ads in this country?

It's no surprise people are moving to independent new media these days for objective and reliable reviews...

Look at the little disclaimer from the journalist at the end of the article about the Hyundai response :pac:

elperello

Hold the front page.
The Toyota guy wants to sell Toyotas and the Hyundai guy wants to sell Hyundais.

Old diesel

I don't think Eddie liked Gleeson pointing out that Tormeys interview was part of a PR push.

Tough - it was - that doesn't mean Eddie did anything wrong per se.

But Tormey is pushing his Hybrid message hard.

Gleeson is also pushing his message - but out of the two bosses - it's Gleeson who is closer to being correct.

But Gleeson is looking to push his product too.

creedp

Old diesel wrote: »

I don't think Eddie liked Gleeson pointing out that Tormeys interview was part of a PR push.

Tough - it was - that doesn't mean Eddie did anything wrong per se.

But Tormey is pushing his Hybrid message hard.

Gleeson is also pushing his message - but out of the two bosses - it's Gleeson who is closer to being correct.

But Gleeson is looking to push his product too.

There is an election on at the moment .. wall to wall reporting of self serving views by all media. Would people expect a company selling a particular product not to upsell its advantages? Is a petrol hybrid better than a diesel from a CO2/other pollutant perspective? I for one am glad that the era of people driving around urban areas in a diesel Yaris is behind us!

mp3guy

unkel wrote: »

In many countries the "self charging" ads are banned because they are misleading. But no, not in Ireland. And Toyota gets a lot of media coverage from what seem to be overly friendly journalists, or am I imagining things? I guess Toyota spends a fortune on newspaper ads in this country?

It's no surprise people are moving to independent new media these days for objective and reliable reviews...

The amount of times I've had people ask the range of my hybrid, or whether you'd make it to Athlone. People don't understand that hybrid != BEV. I'm pretty convinced that's why they've had to call them "self charging" in this country.