Confused buyers being rushed into EVs

unkel

You guessed it right, that was Toyota Ireland's CEO :rolleyes:

We'd be much better off in self charging hybrids. They nearly always run on electricity, you never have to plug them in and they charge themselves.

Linky


As expected pretty much no critical comment from the author of the article, Eddie Cunningham, the main motoring journo of the Independent.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

You guessed it right, that was Toyota Ireland's CEO :rolleyes:

We'd be much better off in self charging hybrids. They nearly always run on electricity, you never have to plug them in and they charge themselves.

Linky


As expected pretty much no critical comment from the author of the article, Eddie Cunningham, the main motoring journo of the Independent.

Has Eddie ever given a new car a bad review?

Mancomb Seepgood

He cites Norway as being 'right' for EVs. But unlike Norway, where 95pc of electricity comes from hydro power, Mr Tormey argues: "You could claim that in Ireland we are forcing people to use dirty power (from coal) to drive an EV."

Yes,you could claim that.You'd be wrong though.And where exactly does the power that Toyota hybrids use come from,and how clean is it?Questions which Mr Tormey wasn't asked.

Black_Knight

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

.And where exactly does the power that Toyota hybrids use come from.

Emmm... Not coal. <Phew, dodged that bullet>

elperello

I'd say that most EV purchasers have done their homework and know what they are getting into.

He is right about EVs not being suitable for a lot of rural people.

He is the CEO of Toyota Ireland so it's not exactly some conspiracy. What would you expect him to say?

As for Eddie Cunningham -
I don't read the Independent but most cars are pretty good in one way or another nowadays. There are very few bad cars.

graememk

elperello wrote: »

He is right about EVs not being suitable for a lot of rural people.

I dont understand the EV's arent for rural people, Plenty of space for home chargers, might even have them inside in a garage.

Esp with the higher capacity batteries getting 300-400km (dublin to malin head is less that 300k)

Once more evs get out and about, opinions will change.

My father is very open to getting one, when they come out with a passat sized one (got to be able to hold all the golf gear for both my parents!) id4 could be a runner

elperello

graememk wrote: »

I dont understand the EV's arent for rural people, Plenty of space for home chargers, might even have them inside in a garage.

Esp with the higher capacity batteries getting 300-400km (dublin to malin head is less that 300k)

Once more evs get out and about, opinions will change.

My father is very open to getting one, when they come out with a passat sized one (got to be able to hold all the golf gear for both my parents!) id4 could be a runner

They are suitable for some ie. commuting into town for work etc.

Your point about the chargers is on the money.

The towbar is a big issue for many in rural areas.

The Passat type EV will be a game changer for many like your father if the price is right.

saabsaab

I know several people who are planning to get an EV as their next car. The 'self-charging' hybrid is really two engines using petrol for driving and to recharge their batteries not really a great solution.


Better a plug-in or pure EV if the range is suitable. Anyone for LPG.

fricatus

unkel wrote: »

As expected pretty much no critical comment from the author of the article, Eddie Cunningham, the main motoring journo of the Independent.

Comments from Toyota are what we've come to expect. In fairness to Eddie, he's pretty balanced when it comes to EVs, and he does know as much as can be expected from someone who (I assume) normally drives some sort of fossil car. He did leave this little barb in:

Eddie Cunningham wrote:

As you would expect from the chief executive of a company with an overwhelmingly hybrid new-car portfolio, he is advocating much wider use of hybrids.

Totally not impressed with this though:

Eddie Cunningham wrote:

He takes a different tack. "Because we're not renewable like Norway, the ESB has worked out that when you are charging your EV in Ireland emissions come to 70 grammes every kilometre." (A Prius hybrid emits 75g+). He feels it was too soon to announce the sweeping plans.

First of all: bullsh1t, we have plenty of renewables. It's a percentage thing, not a binary option, so the Norwegians may be "more renewable" than us, but we're not doing too badly, and getting better all the time. Secondly, I don't need to explain to people on this forum the necessity of comparing like with like when it comes to tailpipe-only versus well-to-wheel emissions.

Lumen

He's not far off on the CO2 intensity of current electricity production.

https://www.seai.ie/publications/Energy-in-Ireland-2019-.pdf

But people aren't replacing Priuses with Teslas, are they? They're replacing large engined luxury cars.

And if Teslas weren't available, they still wouldn't buy Priuses.

krissovo

elperello wrote: »

He is right about EVs not being suitable for a lot of rural people.

Why are EV's not suitable for rural people? It's not as if we live in the outback and 100's of km's from the nearest civilisation in Ireland. I find the opposite, EV's are perfect for many rural dwellers as we hit the sweet spot for fuel savings racking up big milage for our commute to work each week, I do 135kms a week just to do the shopping!

liamog

krissovo wrote: »

Why are EV's not suitable for rural people? It's not as if we live in the outback and 100's of km's from the nearest civilisation in Ireland. I find the opposite, EV's are perfect for many rural dwellers as we hit the sweet spot for fuel savings racking up big milage for our commute to work each week, I do 135kms a week just to do the shopping!

We probably need to kick start that rural electrification project, nevermind electric cars, we have these things called light bulbs, they are brilliant and will save you loads on candles.

Silent Running

liamog wrote: »

We probably need to kick start that rural electrification project, nevermind electric cars, we have these things called light bulbs, they are brilliant and will save you loads on candles.

Don't tell the city dwellers, but I have gigabit broadband.

liamog

Lumen wrote: »

He's not far off on the CO2 intensity of current electricity production.

According to the report you shared it's 375 gCO2/kWh.
Ioniq is rated at 13.8 kWh/100 km according to WLTP, which is 51.75g/km. A Corrola hybrid emit's 76g/km. He's got the figure dead on for an efficent Toyota, and probably used the figures from an Audi E-Tron for the EV.

liamog

Silent Running wrote: »

Don't tell the city dwellers, but I have gigabit broadband.

No, you don't, printing 1024 pages from the internet at the local city library and bringing them home on your horse and trap doesn't count as gigabit!

graememk

Silent Running wrote: »

Don't tell the city dwellers, but I have gigabit broadband.

shhh, dont let them know some of us lucky ones have FTTH, won the Eir lottery

Silent Running

liamog wrote: »

No, you don't, printing 1024 pages from the internet at the local city library and bringing them home on your horse and trap doesn't count as gigabit!

Oh, um yeah. Sorry, that's the truth, mister.

elperello

krissovo wrote: »

Why are EV's not suitable for rural people? It's not as if we live in the outback and 100's of km's from the nearest civilisation in Ireland. I find the opposite, EV's are perfect for many rural dwellers as we hit the sweet spot for fuel savings racking up big milage for our commute to work each week, I do 135kms a week just to do the shopping!

I didn't say they are not suitable for rural people.
They are suitable for some like yourself.
For others living in rural areas there is no EV suitable at the moment.

liamog

elperello wrote: »

I didn't say they are not suitable for rural people.
They are suitable for some like yourself.
For others living in rural areas there is no EV suitable at the moment.

It's not the living in the rural area that's the problem, it's the requirement to tow.
My father in law lives in a Dublin suburb, he needs to tow a trailer for his building supplies, you can't generalise and now say EVs aren't suitable for suburbs.

elperello

liamog wrote: »

It's not the living in the rural area that's the problem, it's the requirement to tow.
My father in law lives in a Dublin suburb, he needs to tow a trailer for his building supplies, you can't generalise and now say EVs aren't suitable for suburbs.

I am now saying for the third time in this thread that EVs are suitable for some rural dwellers but not for others.

That's not generalising or anti EV it's just a fact.

There are of course many like your father in law who live in the suburbs and need to tow. They have the same problem, there is no EV alternative at the moment.

Orebro

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Has Eddie ever given a new car a bad review?

Toyota would be a big advertiser with the paper, along with the other manufacturers, he ain’t gonna be critical of anything.

elperello

Orebro wrote: »

Toyota would be a big advertiser with the paper, along with the other manufacturers, he ain’t gonna be critical of anything.

Fair summary.
Motoring Writers are not usually at the cutting edge of investigative journalism.
They do what they do and it's entertaining and informative to read but we have to apply our own critical analysis.

listermint

elperello wrote: »

They are suitable for some ie. commuting into town for work etc.

Your point about the chargers is on the money.

The towbar is a big issue for many in rural areas.

The Passat type EV will be a game changer for many like your father if the price is right.

The towbar is not as big an issue as you are making out. I'm plenty rural and there are probably less than 15 per cent of neighbors with a towbar or need for one.

You know rural people hire people to get work done too right....

elperello

listermint wrote: »

The towbar is not as big an issue as you are making out. I'm plenty rural and there are probably less than 15 per cent of neighbors with a towbar or need for one.

You know rural people hire people to get work done too right....

I don't have any figures and all I'm saying is that anyone who wants to tow has no realistic EV option at the moment.

They are 100% not going to change now.

That's not a criticism of EVs and I'm sure the situation will change as more EV's come on the market.

You really wouldn't be hiring someone to collect a few bags of feed or take a load to the bring centre if you had a trailer in the shed.

listermint

elperello wrote: »

I don't have any figures and all I'm saying is that anyone who wants to tow has no realistic EV option at the moment.

They are 100% not going to change now.

That's not a criticism of EVs and I'm sure the situation will change as more EV's come on the market.

You really wouldn't be hiring someone to collect a few bags of feed or take a load to the bring centre if you had a trailer in the shed.

Everyone in rural Ireland is buying bags of feed and taking loads.?....

Jesus we've an awful lot more farmers than I knew .... ..

elperello

listermint wrote: »

Everyone in rural Ireland is buying bags of feed and taking loads.?....

Jesus we've an awful lot more farmers than I knew .... ..

Small farmers, small holders, big gardens etc.

Saturday morning they will be out in force

liamog

elperello wrote: »

I am now saying for the third time in this thread that EVs are suitable for some rural dwellers but not for others.

That's not generalising or anti EV it's just a fact.

So basically you reckon that EVs sometimes aren't suitable for use in rural areas, but can't actually provide us a reason beyond towing.
If the towing requirement is the only reason, then the rural/suburban distinction isn't required.

Your statement should be 'EVs arent suitable for people who need to tow'

elperello

liamog wrote: »

So basically you reckon that EVs sometimes aren't suitable for use in rural areas, but can't actually provide us a reason beyond towing.
If the towing requirement is the only reason, then the rural/suburban distinction isn't required.

Your statement should be 'EVs arent suitable for people who need to tow'

Yes towing is the main reason. Price of course is another. There are a lot of people on low incomes in rural areas whose only means of transport is a car. I'm talking about people who think 2-3k is a lot to spend.

The discussion was in the context of suitability for rural dwellers. (ref. Toyota CEO in link).

My statement is mine and not for you to dictate. By all means make a case for suburban folk if you like.

Lumen

EVs aren't suitable for a lot of women, particularly those who need to tow or can't afford a new car.

Not all women, mind. I guess some women will buy them. But we shouldn't be rushing women into buying EVs

kippy

elperello wrote: »

I didn't say they are not suitable for rural people.
They are suitable for some like yourself.
For others living in rural areas there is no EV suitable at the moment.

There are two issues that are hindering the uptake in EV's.
1. Cost. Some people never will or can't afford to buy a brand new car. New EVs are too expensive and there aren't enough and too many questions about the viability of affordable second hand one.
2. The charging network or lack thereof.

Black_Knight

kippy wrote: »

There are two issues that are hindering the uptake in EV's.
1. Cost. Some people never will or can't afford to buy a brand new car. New EVs are too expensive and there aren't enough and too many questions about the viability of affordable second hand one.
2. The charging network or lack thereof.

3. Variety. Yet to see a Passat equivalent. Audi and Jag have big EVs, but falter at point 1 you made

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

EVs aren't suitable for a lot of women, particularly those who need to tow or can't afford a new car.

Not all women, mind. I guess some women will buy them. But we shouldn't be rushing women into buying EVs

I don't normally have to read a post twice. You do have your full wits about you very first thing in the morning, fair play

krissovo

elperello wrote: »

Yes towing is the main reason. Price of course is another. There are a lot of people on low incomes in rural areas whose only means of transport is a car. I'm talking about people who think 2-3k is a lot to spend.

The discussion was in the context of suitability for rural dwellers. (ref. Toyota CEO in link).

My statement is mine and not for you to dictate. By all means make a case for suburban folk if you like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zNrJ42Oqfs

KCross

krissovo wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zNrJ42Oqfs

Now there's an edge case that Elon hasnt thought about for his Full Self Driving algorithm!

...Ghost...

elperello wrote: »

Yes towing is the main reason. Price of course is another. There are a lot of people on low incomes in rural areas whose only means of transport is a car. I'm talking about people who think 2-3k is a lot to spend.

The discussion was in the context of suitability for rural dwellers. (ref. Toyota CEO in link).

My statement is mine and not for you to dictate. By all means make a case for suburban folk if you like.

If towing is the main reason, then it would be a small number and is not restricted to rural dwellers.

Up until recently, people were saying that range was the issue for rural dwellers. Now it's tow bars. Next, it will be that the lack of diesel particulates are resulting in better quality beef and the farmers are not getting a fair price.

EVs are now suitable for most people. A lot needs to be done with regards to access to charging. Older models can have battery upgrades soon enough (currently available in NL) bringing the price/range issue to a more acceptable level for peasants like me.

Ryath

Black_Knight wrote: »

3. Variety. Yet to see a Passat equivalent. Audi and Jag have big EVs, but falter at point 1 you made

Its coming, it's large estate is what I'm really waiting for.

Only a concept for now but we should see it in 2022 ID5
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-la-motor-show/volkswagen-id-space-vizzion-previews-id-5-crossover-estate

elperello

...Ghost... wrote: »

If towing is the main reason, then it would be a small number and is not restricted to rural dwellers.

Up until recently, people were saying that range was the issue for rural dwellers. Now it's tow bars. Next, it will be that the lack of diesel particulates are resulting in better quality beef and the farmers are not getting a fair price.

EVs are now suitable for most people. A lot needs to be done with regards to access to charging. Older models can have battery upgrades soon enough (currently available in NL) bringing the price/range issue to a more acceptable level for peasants like me.

The reason we are discussing rural drivers is that the OP's link included quotes from the CEO of Toyota Ireland about rural Ireland.

Whatever the number is the fact is that no viable EV alternative exists for them. That's not a criticism of EVs and alternatives will become available over time.

Of course some urban based drivers need a towbar too.

I'm not sure that range was ever a sound argument against EV's in rural areas.
For a commute to work or trips to the local town the EV is a suitable alternative and has been pointed out home charging points are actually easier to accommodate in the country.

I agree that the battery upgrade market will continue to grow.

liamog

elperello wrote: »

The reason we are discussing rural drivers is that the OP's link included quotes from the CEO of Toyota Ireland about rural Ireland.

We all agreed the CEO of Toyota Ireland was incorrect, EVs are suitable for people in rural Ireland. However there is not much choice of EVs for people who require the ability to tow.

Some rural living people need to tow (just as some suburban dwellers do) but not all vehicles used by people living in rural areas have that requirement.

creedp

elperello wrote: »

I agree that the battery upgrade market will continue to grow.

I hope so as I have an 'old' 2016 L30 with 115k km and already down a bar so I'm not sure how long it will be before its range deteriorates significantly and I will either have to shift it for small money or look at the feasibility of refurbishing / replacing the battery.

At least with the newer longer range EV's, even if they suffer significant battery degradation, they will still have a reasonable range to play with.

unkel

creedp wrote: »

I hope so as I have an 'old' 2016 L30 with 115k km and already down a bar so I'm not sure how long it will be before its range deteriorates significantly and I will either have to shift it for small money or look at the feasibility of refurbishing / replacing the battery.

Would you really spend €7k on top of your L30 that you could sell for €13k, so you end up having a car worth €15k?

Or would it be wiser to spend that €20k on a second hand Ioniq or L40?

Not a rational decision to upgrade your battery, unless the cost to upgrade comes down radically...

creedp

unkel wrote: »

Would you really spend €7k on top of your L30 that you could sell for €13k, so you end up having a car worth €15k?

Or would it be wiser to spend that €20k on a second hand Ioniq or L40?

Not a rational decision to upgrade your battery, unless the cost to upgrade comes down radically...

Oh I agree completely. When I'm talking about refurbishing / replacement of the battery I mean when it becomes reasonably priced. €7k would be madness. In any case I think a 2 year old Ioniq would suit me better that a 100% SOH L30 as a lot of my driving is on national roads / motorway which really don't suit the L30.

As a matter of interest what the mileage currently on your Ioniq and what range are you getting in this weather?

I'm struggling to get 120km to absolute empty at this stage something which is not recommended for ones mental health!!

meeeeh

liamog wrote: »

So basically you reckon that EVs sometimes aren't suitable for use in rural areas, but can't actually provide us a reason beyond towing.
If the towing requirement is the only reason, then the rural/suburban distinction isn't required.

Your statement should be 'EVs arent suitable for people who need to tow'

I might be wrong but EV's are not as great at higher speeds. I would say about 80% of the driving I do is on the roads with speed limits of 80 or more. I would actually consider EV if my car wasn't main family car but as a family car the ones I could afford are too small and ugly. We tend to drive around the country a bit, we have easy access to empty motorways and driving there with one eye on speedo and battery use just isn't fun. Nowadays if you live in the country chances are you will be doing a nice mileage on fast roads just to ferry kids to a rugby blitz. For the same reason I despise crossovers with passion.

meeeeh

unkel wrote: »

Would you really spend €7k on top of your L30 that you could sell for €13k, so you end up having a car worth €15k?

Or would it be wiser to spend that €20k on a second hand Ioniq or L40?

Not a rational decision to upgrade your battery, unless the cost to upgrade comes down radically...

Wouldn't it be more environmentally friendly?

unkel

creedp wrote: »

As a matter of interest what the mileage currently on your Ioniq and what range are you getting in this weather?

42k km, range at the moment is 190-200km. And any day over 11C or so it's at about 210km. As always, I immediately add (before anybody doesn't believe me again :rolleyes:) that I do very little sustained 130km/h driving, it's almost all of it in the Dublin area.

meeeeh wrote: »

Wouldn't it be more environmentally friendly?

Why would it?

meeeeh

Isn't car production actually very energy intensive and it's actually very energy efficient and environmentally friendly to use your car as long as possible.

graememk

meeeeh wrote: »

Isn't car production actually very energy intensive and it's actually very energy efficient and environmentally friendly to use your car as long as possible.

Yes, but when you sell a car is it scrapped?

Whatever range is left might not be good enough for your needs, but it might be fine as a 2nd car for someone else. Maybe the school run or out to the golf club.

It will be interesting to see the end of life reuse of the batteries in 10 years time in solar storage etc

As for the towing argument, ok they can't switch with the current crop of ev's but there isn't even a Passat equivalent out yet either

What's a new automatic Passat going for these days? 45-50k?

unkel

meeeeh wrote: »

Isn't car production actually very energy intensive and it's actually very energy efficient and environmentally friendly to use your car as long as possible.

The cars I suggested (€20k Ioniq or L40) are second hand, not new cars

kippy

unkel wrote: »

Would you really spend €7k on top of your L30 that you could sell for €13k, so you end up having a car worth €15k?

Or would it be wiser to spend that €20k on a second hand Ioniq or L40?

Not a rational decision to upgrade your battery, unless the cost to upgrade comes down radically...

The figures here are eye watering. This is the main issue for many.

optimal

creedp wrote: »

I hope so as I have an 'old' 2016 L30 with 115k km and already down a bar so I'm not sure how long it will be before its range deteriorates significantly and I will either have to shift it for small money or look at the feasibility of refurbishing / replacing the battery.

At least with the newer longer range EV's, even if they suffer significant battery degradation, they will still have a reasonable range to play with.

Interesting. I have an L30, late 2015 with 116k on it also and still have all 12 bars. (Probably jinxing myself now 😀). Yesterday I drove to Dublin (100km) and based on that I would expect about 135 km range. Reverse journey I would have got no more than 110 km Max. No more than Leafspeed. (BTW, lots of us give out about chargepoint hoggers but yesterday a gentleman in a BMW i3 gave way to me at cloghran FC and used the type 2 which was a big help, so thanks to him.)
120 km/h in the Leaf would bring it down to 75-80 km on a bad day heading into some wind. I do like the Leaf though and the ability to have a warm car waiting when I leave work....

fricatus

meeeeh wrote: »

Isn't car production actually very energy intensive and it's actually very energy efficient and environmentally friendly to use your car as long as possible.

The CO2 payback period for a new EV is no more than about 3-4 years. It's not an exact science, but this video does a very good job of running you through the numbers:

fricatus

More from the CEO of Toyota Ireland here:

Indo wrote:

"We are proud to say that Toyota is already delivering the lowest CO2 output of any car brand in Ireland. In fact, our average CO2 output across our range in Ireland was 17pc lower than the top 10 best-selling car brands," he added.

Hmmm... the lowest CO2 output, eh? Is Tesla's higher, or are they not a "car brand in Ireland"?