Metalwork and welding

jmreire

[Split off from the "This weeks Classic Irish bargains that I'm not buying" thread as it really deserves its own thread.

Feel free to add any panel making or welding pics/info to this thread to help/inspire others. Please avoid quoting full posts full of pics as it can be a lot of needless scrolling on mobiles.]

kadman wrote: »

Beetle resto is more or less complete. I am just making new leather seat covers for front and back. Then some superficial stuff.

Also have the fast back nearly ready for final assembly bits, wings bonnets ect re attached. But all the grunt work done. And after all this, I just want to spend a few months driving, as opposed to working on body work..

But body corrosion tends to get bigger.

"Fastback" as in VW Varient Fastback ??? 1600 cc? Those were some car allright.
Yes I agree about the corrosion , as I mentioned in my post.. It's literally like the tip of the iceberg, and I have done enough of them in the past to know. Over the years, I've been asked by people that I know, if I would do a "project" for them,and my answer has always been NO. Its too time consuming, but maybe I will take on one for myself in the near future, something that I can take my time at, and do it section by section. We will see..:):):)

kadman

jmreire wrote: »

I see that you have a VW Beetle restoration project in progress. How is that going for you? I spent 5 years working in a VW Dealership, so I still have an interest in them.

Beetle resto is more or less complete. I am just making new leather seat covers for front and back. Then some superficial stuff.

Also have the fast back nearly ready for final assembly bits, wings bonnets ect re attached. But all the grunt work done. And after all this, I just want to spend a few months driving, as opposed to working on body work..

I want to get away from tricky panel work like this on the fasty,



And out onto the open road and let the wind through my hair, ( all 3 of them):D

kadman

Any car where you can buy repair panels, makes things simple,
but in the case of my Fastback, very few exist.

So making the likes of these was awkward and time consuming,

jmreire

kadman wrote: »

I want to get away from tricky panel work like this on the fasty,

And out onto the open road and let the wind through my hair, ( all 3 of them):D

Nice bit of work...lovely to look at nice clean shiny new metal !!! And Thank God for M.I.G welders too. Do you have any more before and after pics?

kadman

Mostly individual areas, as the car is not finally finished yet,

kadman

I just realised I may have posted in a thread not suitable as they may be off topic.

Apologies to mods, please deal with my oversite as you see fit.:)

BonnieSituation

kadman wrote: »

I just realised I may have posted in a thread not suitable as they may be off topic.

Apologies to mods, please deal with my oversite as you see fit.:)

Never in here! That's pretty on topic given you were highlighting corrosion on another car. Plus you know what petrol heads are like...

jmreire

kadman wrote: »

Mostly individual areas, as the car is not finally finished yet,

Fair Play to you Kadman, that's classy workmanship, by any standard's. And very relevant to this thread.....for anyone out there thinking about buying a "Restorer", show's exactly what is involved.. and I'm pretty sure that there was no hint of the amount of corrosion that existed prior to stripping it down? Looking forward to seeing updates as you progress !!! Well Done !!!..

kadman

jmreire wrote: »

Fair Play to you Kadman, that's classy workmanship, by any standard's. And very relevant to this thread.....for anyone out there thinking about buying a "Restorer", show's exactly what is involved.. and I'm pretty sure that there was no hint of the amount of corrosion that existed prior to stripping it down? Looking forward to seeing updates as you progress !!! Well Done !!!..

Ha,ha,
It was purchased by my dad, who was told by me "run Forest Run:eek::eek:,

But he laughed and said it will see him out:D

Well he is now 87 and going strong, where this car is getting a resto before him:P

kadman

Due to the major lack of most of the panels, either new or
nos or replacement ones, it dragged out the repairs as they had to be made
by hand,
from the little repairs,,







To the tricky

kadman

This is what my dad saw,





But I knew this is what was coming,






This post might act as a potential outcome for an impulse buy considered by a classic owner newbie.

Potential cost for this type of resto would cost a newbie thousands that they would not have thought of,

if they buy on the basis of the pics look great.

I flagged this up to "the Boss", but he would not listen to the young pup at the time (me 56 then )

Luckily I could cover all of the resto work myself.

jmreire

kadman wrote: »

Due to the major lack of most of the panels, either new or
nos or replacement ones, it dragged out the repairs as they had to be made
by hand,
from the little repairs,,

Forget about the clock on a job like that...when you have to manufacture the panels by hand, using sheet metal...not easy, and no guarantee that you will get it right first go either !!! Once we had to get a fabricator / metalworker to install ducting in one of our workshops....lots of twist's,turn's and shaping. Was fascinating to watch him work...a true artist with metal.

kadman

jmreire wrote: »

Forget about the clock on a job like that...when you have to manufacture the panels by hand, using sheet metal...not easy, and no guarantee that you will get it right first go either !!! Once we had to get a fabricator / metalworker to install ducting in one of our workshops....lots of twist's,turn's and shaping. Was fascinating to watch him work...a true artist with metal.

I use the same method for making different compound panel shapes, that I used when I used to make my own shoes,















Perfect template everytime. Every layer of masking tape rotated 90 degrees
to give the template strength.
Perfect solution for copying existing shapes.

BonnieSituation

Can I please ask you to make a goddam thread for this stuff. It deserves it. Absolutely class.

I'm a sucker for ingenuity.

kadman

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Can I please ask you to make a goddam thread for this stuff. It deserves it. Absolutely class.

I'm a sucker for ingenuity.

If the mods want to move it to its own thread, I'm all for it:)
Maybe others could post resto tips too:)

jmreire

kadman wrote: »

I use the same method for making different compound panel shapes, that I used when I used to make my own shoes,

Perfect template everytime. Every layer of masking tape rotated 90 degrees
to give the template strength.
Perfect solution for copying existing shapes.

Fantastic job,kadman and fantastic workmanship. Looking forward to seeing it at the different stages, and of course the finished article.

Would be a great idea to give it a thread all for itself !!! MOD's please note !!!;););)

macplaxton

Mod has noted, but works backshift.

Posting of photos is most welcome, I would be grateful though when quoting posts to avoid quoting the whole lot (with the all pics repeated) as it's just unnecessary and a lot of needless scrolling on mobiles.

To reply to the thread instead of hitting the "Quote" button, use the "Post" button on mobile, or "Post Reply" button / "Quick Reply" box on desktop) . Thank you.

kadman

Just wanted to add that I used only very basic tools for all of the panels I made.

Hammer formed all of them with various shape things to cause the appropriate indents,
from sockets to rebars, and anything in between. I have a large number of old shoemakers lasts
which I found great for metal forming.

I applied no heat or anything to bend the panels, it was all hammer formed as I had no engilsh wheel ect.

I made a small tool like a mini engilsh wheel on my lathe for the two very tight rear wing corners.

kadman

This shows some of the shapes I used to form the corner wing structural support from 1.5mm metal.

The wooden lead podger and shaped wooden dolly, or any matching metal form that suited.

kadman

More complex shapes were buitlt from 1 or 2 or more individual pieces
if I could not hammer it from 1 single piece, as in this case

kadman

This was one of the more challenging pieces I made. Its located on the passenger side
lower rear wing corner.
It was hammered from one piece.

You can just see the V cutout of the lower section of the tail light.

The shaped mallet and pounce bag here, doing the shaping.

jmreire

Thanks Mod, and for the tip about just posting and not quoting. Good one !!!
Very good work kadman,time consuming but very satisfying, I'd say. And you have the car mounted on a jig, so stable platform...no chance of any "twisting / warping". Is it completely stripped down to a shell, or only partially?. what kind of mileage is on it? And was it driving or had to be trailered in?

kadman

It was completely stripped down to a shell, and was a body off resto.

It was driving for a year or thereabouts before driving into the garage.

Front beam, rear axle and suspension, engine and gearbox was all removed. Repairs included,
all bodywork, inner wings, front valance, rear inner wings, suspension locations, heater channels,
basically bottom 15" all around the car. Wing repairs as well.

Then all the mechanicals, including engine stripped, inspected, and rebuilt with new parts where needed.
All the mechanicals are refitted to the car, and the car and body re assembled, and is driving. Boots, doors,
and wings and interior yet to be fitted and sprayed.

Savage stuff,
cant wait to get started on my own car (any year now).
Where do you buy your sheet metal?

kadman

I buy my sheetmetal from Donaghy Roofing in Kilbeggan. 2Mx1M sheets

1.2 mm and .9mm for shaped panels. And 1.5 Galvanised for the heater channels
that are structural elements.



Old and replacement channel made from galvanised material



Inside of fabricated heater channel.



Again, all of these parts were made with nothing more than garage hand tools and clamps,
nothing special at all, and a small bit of ingenuity.:)

BonnieSituation

"small bit"

You're some bucko

kadman

Thinking outside of the box, instead of stuck in it. Gets the job done:D

jmreire

I've done a fair share of Beetle's, but never a Varient...and I can't remember if they are they same floor / chassis set-up, but presume that they are???. With a ring of bolt's holding the body to the integrated floor / chassis and front / rear bulkhead's? Basically, you can drive the car around without the body...Very simple and accessible design, unlike some of the monstrosities service-wise out there now.
That heater duct /chassis section is some piece of engineering..." little ????" bit of ingenuity ????? Really !!!! Just prove's the different interpretation of "LITTLE" !!!! Ha Ha Ha...

kadman

Heater channel was by no means the hardest section to make, in fact it was one of the easiest.
Folded, drilled, and then the pipe installed. And the outlet shute.

I had a rusty original to follow, but no outer cill sections, so had to rely on
google images and careful matching to existing body panels.

Then the outer layers of the heater channel, inner cover , and outer cill.

More bashing

corner


Outer heater cover section



OIuter cill cover



All together.

jmreire

Very good ...you have taken out the floor as well????

kadman

jmreire wrote: »

Very good ...you have taken out the floor as well????

Body was seperated from the floor.

jmreire

So at the moment, from looking at the pic's....panels covered in red ( anti-rust coating? ) In the metal, work in progress..you have come a long way, for sure.!!! i know that there is still lots to do but when the anti- corrosion paint start's to appear, that's heartening. What MIG welder are you using???

kadman

jmreire wrote: »

So at the moment, from looking at the pic's....panels covered in red ( anti-rust coating? ) In the metal, work in progress..you have come a long way, for sure.!!! i know that there is still lots to do but when the anti- corrosion paint start's to appear, that's heartening. What MIG welder are you using???

No. Car is complete and driving. Just have to fit wings, bonnets, boot and doors, and finish

kadman

REplacement floor was added as the original was too badly gone.





Front beam stripped and repaired





Heater channel breakdown

zetecescort

Is bodywork your trade? Very impressive standard, more so using no special tools and encouragement for the rest of us

kadman

zetecescort wrote: »

Is bodywork your trade? Very impressive standard, more so using no special tools and encouragement for the rest of us

No its not my trade. I am a carpenter joiner:D:D

But with imagination:p

jmreire

I'd say that the front axle beams would not need much work...they are a much heavier steel gauge, so a good clean down and re paint would do them ( unless they were bent?? ) How were the torsion spring's, front and rear? Ok? The front springs make great cold chisels, BTW.

Did you manage to get a new floor pan, or is that one you have made? Its a remarkable job, if you have made it yourself.

Carpenter / Joiner....that's where the shaping skill's came from !!! LOL.
I have a Friend, who is an IT tech, but also his hobby / pastime is Mechanic's.....and he is up for any kind of repair / servicing. He built his own OBD reader specifically for his own car, and it works 100%. He has no hesitation in pulling out gearboxes and fitting clutches, or overhauling brakes etc. He find's it relaxing...:cool:

kadman

Had to rebuild the front beam and refit to the chassis



And hammer formed a new spare wheel well



Wooden dished former is ideal to pummel a shape into, and then finished by either a small pneumatic
plannishing hammer, or pounce bag. I used a bag and hammer for this.

Then welded it to the rest of the wheel well.





And trial fit into place

kadman

Restoring old classics also throws a good mixture of mechanical repairs to be made
as well as the bodywork.
I had to install a casesaver into the soft magnesium case of the fastback. Can
sometimes be par for the course for these engines. And it has to be tackled carefully
or you could end up with an over size paperweight








Torque settings are there for a reason;)

jmreire

They are the retaining bolts for the piston pots and the head's, what was the problem with them? When undoing the head retaining nuts, had the nuts bonded to the bolts, and instead of the nuts turning, the bolts turned instead in the block and stripped the thread's ?

kadman

jmreire wrote: »

They are the retaining bolts for the piston pots and the head's, what was the problem with them? When undoing the head retaining nuts, had the nuts bonded to the bolts, and instead of the nuts turning, the bolts turned instead in the block and stripped the thread's ?

Problem with this one, was , it was stripped from over torquing by a previous owner.

The studsv were 8 mm. So I had to bore out the case, carfully.
Grease was there to remove the swarf.

And then drill and tap for a 10mm case saver. And fit that.

Job done

here is the case saver fitted,





Hole tapped before case saver fitted



Case saver fitted onto stud, and stud wound into thread fitting
the case saver,

kadman

Its a common problem from poor attention to vw engine rebuilds.

Not too bad if it happens on the 8mm stud engine, as there is plenty of meat in the case
when fitting the 10mm case saver.

If your engine is the 10mm studs, then fitting the case saver brings you closer to the case edge,
so attention here is critical.

Case saver kit is cheap enough, and comes with all the bits necessary.
Drill, tap, and a selection of case savers in the big kits, or smaller kits for
only 1 size.

jmreire

kadman wrote: »

Its a common problem from poor attention to vw engine rebuilds.

Not too bad if it happens on the 8mm stud engine, as there is plenty of meat in the case
when fitting the 10mm case saver.

If your engine is the 10mm studs, then fitting the case saver brings you closer to the case edge,
so attention here is critical.

Case saver kit is cheap enough, and comes with all the bits necessary.
Drill, tap, and a selection of case savers in the big kits, or smaller kits for
only 1 size.

Yes over torquing, can cause that all right. By "case saver" I think that you mean what we call " Heli Coil's" ??? Does the same job in any case. But it's up and running now, no problem.

kadman

No I mean case savers:D

There is a difference, case savers are better

jmreire

kadman wrote: »

No I mean case savers:D

There is a difference, case savers are better

Ah, yes..I can see the difference now! Case savers would be much better when working in an alloy block for holding piston block /cylinder head's in place as you were doing.

eusap

When people say boards is gone to the dogs with keyboard warriors an excellent thread like this appears. People sharing great experience. Well done and more of it!:)

kadman

If you look at the pics of the helicoil and case savers. The difference is clear.

The case saver, as the name implies is predominantly used in engine case applications.
Its more robust than the wire helicoil, and can with stand the torques applied by the studs threaded into it.

Vw cases are a soft magnesium alloy, and some energetic builders believe that brute force
is the torque setting, and its very easy to start pulling the studs through the case. Then the harm is done.

And for many the solution here is to slap in a dob of Loctite thread seal, and cross the fingers.
Its not, new case saver is the solution

jmreire

Yes the difference is clear from your pics. I've never had to replace one of these, hence my lack of knowledge about them...on the other, hand helicoils were a common request to the store man for fitting in plug holes. And if they failed, then it was an engine out, head's off and sent to the local engineering works. But they are a good solution, and not only in cars....virtually any situation where the threads are stripped beyond repair, they will be a good solution.:D

kadman

Something I cobbled together to shape some of the smaller panels I needed.

basically its a 4" tyred castor, and a hardened steel anvil on the bottom,

mini english wheel I suppose. It worked well in shaping the tightly curved panels I needed.

Mounted in the chuck of my wood lathe for stability. Obviously the lathe was never turned on.





It was ideal for this type of panel, repairing the rusted section of the curved airbox.

jmreire

Certainly did the job on that panel anyway, amateur construction or not !!!! :):) Not that it matters as long as it does the job.

zetecescort

anvil is a ball for a tractor 3 point hitch?