Vegan Death Cult

seamus

gozunda wrote: »

Ah you're being way too modest there seamus. Sure I know you are very fond of all things farming. You might need some more hands I reckon ...

https://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?query=Farm*&forum=&user=4091&date_from=&date_to=

Now I'm just embarrassed for you.

Godspeed, gozunda. One day you will vanquish the scourges of veganism and climate action that so threaten your personal income. One day.

gozunda

seamus wrote: »

Now I'm just embarrassed for you.Godspeed, gozunda. One day you will vanquish the scourges of veganism and climate action that so threaten your personal income. One day.

No seamus. I have no issue with veganism or what any one eats. Just some of misinformation that is evident. And yes climate change is a major issue too. We can all discuss these things but personally I would be embarrassed calling others a group of 'pr!cks' or similar as I saw recently. But you already know that.

Any such abuse is tantamount to saying, "You have beaten me with your argument; I can only resort to name calling."

MMXX

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

If there is nothing broken, then why do you and others try to help them?

If there is nothing broken, then why try to fix it?

Clearly for many (most) people, being lonely is a problem. And it damages them... so many do need help. So in effect something definitely is broken in their lives!

You need to be more open and honest about the problem!

No, I think you are missing my point - and if you're not, then I am not communicating it effectively enough.

The poster I was referring to, casually used the word 'lonely' - as a means to insult another, to cut deep - it was a carefully selected word, designed to hurt another. It was not to point out that a person was lonely, and that they should seek company - or try and help themselves, it was not a simple observation. It was said in mean-spirited way, in a: you're a lonely, old man - and that's that, that's what you are - and there is no changing that, there is no light at the end of your tunnel, and they're never will be - kind of way. I am making the point, that to call someone lonely, is not an insult - it is not ANOTHER thing to feel bad about, if you are already feeling low. It may be a fact, but it is a deeply unpleasant thing to say to somebody - in this way. I was not suggesting that one shouldn't seek help - I was more reminding everybody that it's, sadly - quite common, and you needn't feel alone.

the beer revolu

The "it's natural/ it's instinct" argument doesn't really stack up.

Yes, it is instinctual and natural to kill animals and eat meat but humans have evolved massively and no longer blindly follow our instincts.

It would be natural to kill or abandon a badly developed offspring.
Rape is widespread in the animal world - I guess that's natural.
Killing competitors seems fine in the natural world.
Elderly and infirm animals are routinely left to die or abandoned.
Fathers regularly kill and eat their offspring.
Certain spiders kill their mates after copulation.

I could go on.

MMXX

the beer revolu wrote: »

It would be natural to kill or abandon a badly developed offspring.

https://www.thejournal.ie/gammy-baby-down-syndrome-1600573-Aug2014/
https://loveboth.ie/in-britain-90-of-babies-diagnosed-with-down-syndrome-are-aborted/

the beer revolu wrote: »

Rape is widespread in the animal world - I guess that's natural.

https://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

the beer revolu wrote: »

Killing competitors seems fine in the natural world.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/4963557/jealous-ex-who-killed-love-rival-jay-sewell-18-with-help-from-his-parents-is-jailed-for-21-years/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7873155/Mother-35-facing-life-bars-death-ex-husband.html

the beer revolu wrote: »

Elderly and infirm animals are routinely left to die or abandoned.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2642006/Why-DO-children-abandon-parents-darkest-hour-Im-stunned-Ian-Botham-didnt-visit-dementia-stricken-father.html
https://inews.co.uk/news/health/granny-dumping-elderly-people-dementia-roger-curry-502727

the beer revolu wrote: »

Fathers regularly kill and eat their offspring.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filicide
https://www.sapiens.org/body/cannibalism-ritualized-sacred/

the beer revolu wrote: »

Certain spiders kill their mates after copulation.

Spiders are strange alright - not only does she kill the mate, she then proceeds to eat him. Shocking stuff. I'm sure I could find a find a link somewhere, of a woman killing her partner after sex. Or indeed a thousand links of men killing women, after or during the act of sex - but my browser has had enough unpleasant searches for one day.

I am not condoning any of the above behaviours, nor am I endorsing any of the views contained within, I am pointing out that they exist - and not just in the wider animal kingdom. Are these the actions of a 'massively evolved' species? If the above examples are not 'blindly following' their 'instincts' - then what are they doing?

I'm only the messenger, don't shoot.

the beer revolu

MMXX wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/gammy-baby-down-syndrome-1600573-Aug2014/
https://loveboth.ie/in-britain-90-of-babies-diagnosed-with-down-syndrome-are-aborted/


https://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics


https://www.thesun.ie/news/4963557/jealous-ex-who-killed-love-rival-jay-sewell-18-with-help-from-his-parents-is-jailed-for-21-years/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7873155/Mother-35-facing-life-bars-death-ex-husband.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2642006/Why-DO-children-abandon-parents-darkest-hour-Im-stunned-Ian-Botham-didnt-visit-dementia-stricken-father.html
https://inews.co.uk/news/health/granny-dumping-elderly-people-dementia-roger-curry-502727


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filicide
https://www.sapiens.org/body/cannibalism-ritualized-sacred/



Spiders are strange alright - not only does she kill the mate, she then proceeds to eat him. Shocking stuff. I'm sure I could find a find a link somewhere, of a woman killing her partner after sex. Or indeed a thousand links of men killing women, after or during the act of sex - but my browser has had enough unpleasant searches for one day.

I am not condoning any of the above behaviours, nor am I endorsing any of the views contained within, I am pointing out that they exist - and not just in the wider animal kingdom. Are these the actions of a 'massively evolved' species? If the above examples are not 'blindly following' their 'instincts' - then what are they doing?

I'm only the messenger, don't shoot.

I seriously have no idea what point you are trying to make.

MMXX

the beer revolu wrote: »

I seriously have no idea what point you are trying to make.

No worries.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I'm not sure I've ever seen such an incoherent argument so confidently made.

Do you feel you have some kind of point beyond the fact that rape, infanticide and general violence exist? Among humans? As well as other animals?

Are you saying there's some kind of meaningful comparison? With eating meat? What is it?

If not? What are you on about?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Ah yes, the blind human instinct to terminate pregnancies where the foetus has a disability. Sure apes do the same. Pure instinct. Blindly followed. Nothing else at play.

Ergo, eat meat.

This is brilliant.

gozunda

the beer revolu wrote: »

The "it's natural/ it's instinct" argument doesn't really stack up.Yes, it is instinctual and natural to kill animals and eat meat but humans have evolved massively and no longer blindly follow our instincts.It would be natural to kill or abandon a badly developed offspring.Rape is widespread in the animal world - I guess that's natural.Killing competitors seems fine in the natural world.Elderly and infirm animals are routinely left to die or abandoned.Fathers regularly kill and eat their offspring.
Certain spiders kill their mates after copulation.
I could go on.

In some ways I would agree with you beer. Life in the wild is frought with many dangers including predation, starvation, disease, competition etc

Thankfully the farming of animals now means that people farm and look after and care for domestic breeds of animals. And yes I know there are exceptions - but where animal welfare is not being adhered to - then that needs fixed and not used to bash everyone over the head with.

And yes animals get eaten as they would in the wild, but domestic animals do not endure the dangers of living in a wild state. Humans have changed in many ways. We no longer have to chase prey off cliffs or use spears. We farm animals and we drive cars and fly in the air. All strange things no doubt - but thats where we are. And the rearing and killing of farm and other animals for the purpose of food here is well regulated and inspected in my experience. But I dont like industrial type farming tbh - whether that's arable, animal or horticultural.

That said wild animals also have their place in the world - whether that is a tiger, a hippo or a gazelle. And fair play to them - but I wouldn't judge them by our own standards - they do not rape or murder or commit criminal acts. otherwise we would have to police their behaviour and charge them with breaking our laws. All that's part of our prescribed morality not theirs.

If people wish to follow an omnivorous or indeed any diet then thats fair enough. Conflating odd ideas about ourselves and other species simply doesn't wash.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

gozunda wrote: »

That said wild animals also have their place in the world - whether that is a tiger, a hippo or a gazelle. And fair play to them - but I wouldn't judge them by our own standards - they do not rape or murder or commit criminal acts. otherwise we would have to police their behaviour and charge them with breaking our laws. All that's part of our prescribed morality not theirs.

If people wish to follow an omnivorous or indeed any diet then thats fair enough. Conflating odd ideas about ourselves and other species simply doesn't wash.

Yes I think that's the point which people are trying to explain to young master 2020.

"But lions do it are they wrong huh?" is not a good argument, not that you'd think it from how often and in how "gotcha" a tone it's made.

Paddygreen

Meat is murder. Human beings will evolve and reach a higher vibration if we eat just plants. Meat is also one of the main causes of the climate emergency. It is time it was strictly rationed unt il it is phased out entirely. A ban on the sale and consumption of meat is something that will have to happen. Plant based foods only.

gozunda

Isaias Chubby Temper wrote: »

Yes I think that's the point which people are trying to explain to young master 2020.

"But lions do it are they wrong huh?" is not a good argument, not that you'd think it from how often and in how "gotcha" a tone it's made.

No lions are absolutely fine in my opinion and good luck to them

And most humans the same.

There will always be disagreements.

Panch18

Paddygreen wrote: »

Meat is murder. Human beings will evolve and reach a higher vibration if we eat just plants. Meat is also one of the main causes of the climate emergency. It is time it was strictly rationed unt il it is phased out entirely. A ban on the sale and consumption of meat is something that will have to happen. Plant based foods only.

haha - wow

Paper never refused in

MMXX

I'm going to bow out here, as gozunda has said - there will always be disagreements, and that's healthy - because it will eventually lead us to solutions that suit us all.

I wish we didn't have to kill animals to get meat, but we do - and I think it is part of who we are. It's just reality, neither good - nor bad, only true.

For my part, I only eat meat 3 times per week, free range only - reared in Ireland, cared for by Irish farmers. I do not eat meat produced outside of this island. I refuse to eat caged eggs, I have 1 free range egg per day. I am not religious, but I acknowledge regularly - and appreciate very deeply, the life that the animals I eat - once had. I don't take it for granted.

I am aware of how desperately cruel much of the meat industry is, I only hope one day a balance can be achieved.

I. AM. OUT.

gozunda

Paddygreen wrote: »

Meat is murder. Human beings will evolve and reach a higher vibration if we eat just plants. Meat is also one of the main causes of the climate emergency. It is time it was strictly rationed unt il it is phased out entirely. A ban on the sale and consumption of meat is something that will have to happen. Plant based foods only.

Well you better arrest every meat eating species on the planet and charge them so. But funny thing is that phrase comes from an Album title by the Smith's when Morrisey decided to promote his vegetarian beliefs by selling records.

As for climate change globally the biggest emitter of all greenhouse gases is fossil fuel use in energy and transport near 70%.

Provisional greenhouse gas emission figures for 1990-2018 published by the EPA shows Ireland’s overall emissions have increased by 9.2% since 1990. Transport continues to be the main driver of Ireland’s increasing emissions, having grown by 137% since 1990. Agriculture has risen by just over 1% in the same period. And thats all types of agriculture. That doesnt mean agriculture doesnt have it's part to play. It does.

https://i.imgflip.com/3mal7g.jpg

I know some people dont want eat any animal products because of their personal beliefs and thats fine. But people preaching at everyone and attempting to throw the kitchen sink at those eating a normal diet simply comes across as daft at best.

Edit: added smiley face - well because fek it ...

IrishKev

gozunda wrote: »

I know some people dont want eat any animal products because of their personal beliefs and thats fine. But people preaching at everyone and attempting to throw the kitchen sink at those eating a normal diet simply comes across as daft at best.

You really do go around in circles mate. Your main arguments seem to be as follows:
1) Vegans are preachy - From my POV, anyone I've seen posting in favour of veganism has laid down their opinion, their reasoning behind it, and not much more.
2) Soy oil is the main reason behind soy bean cultivation - It's been proven, using the very links you posted yourself, that soy meal i.e. animal feed is the main source of profit from the soy bean. The beans are processed for their oil, which is more expensive gram for gram, but the largest portion of profit comes from soy meal which is grown for animals.

Both of these arguments have been disproven yet you continue to rehash them. It speaks volumes tbh.


Edit: Quotes for reference

sbsquarepants wrote: »

This is all from the cash flow section of the phd link you provided gozunda

For extruding / expelling process

"Quote:
In these three scales, soybean meal has the most remarkable effect on the net profit in all levels of price changes, followed by soybeans and then soybean oil. This indicates soybean meal plays an important role in the process, and is seen as the driving force for the extrusion expelling technique used in the industry"

For Hexane Extraction -

"Quote:
For 86.61 million kg of annual soybean oil production, soybeans have the most significant effect on the net profit, followed by soybean meal and oil."

For EAEP

"Quote:
The effects of products on net profit change show insoluble fiber has the highest impact, followed by soybean hull and soybean oil; with the revenue from skim having the least effect on net profit change. This result indicates the main product, soybean oil, is not the main driving force of the whole process; and co-products provide more profits than main product."

Pretty much what Tar.Aldarion said

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That's just not what the link you provided says -

Conclusions

"Quote:
Conclusively, though soybean oil is regarded as the main product of oil extraction operations, co-products contribute the major revenues. Therefore, co-products and their further applications are the driving forces of oil extraction processes."


That's not mathematical gymnastics - that's what the expert you drafted in to back up your claims has concluded. Soy is clearly grown for animal feed purposes mainly.

gozunda

IrishKev wrote: »

You really do go around in circles mate. Your main arguments seem to be as follows:
1) Vegans are preachy - From my POV, anyone I've seen posting in favour of veganism has laid down their opinion, their reasoning behind it, and not much more.
2) Soy oil is the main reason behind soy bean cultivation - It's been proven, using the very links you posted yourself, that soy meal i.e. animal feed is the main source of profit from the soy bean. The beans are processed for their oil, which is more expensive gram for gram, but the largest portion of profit comes from soy meal which is grown for animals.

Both of these arguments have been disproven yet you continue to rehash them. It speaks volumes tbh.

Edit: Quotes for reference

Nope. Incorrect. I referenced the following attempt to throw kitchen sink type stuff at agriculture as in this comment. And as for preaching - I'll take that up and ask you do you reckon this is particular post is as described or otherwise. No? Lol

Paddygreen wrote:

 Meat is murder. Human beings will evolve and reach a higher vibration if we eat just plants. Meat is also one of the main causes of the climate emergency. It is time it was strictly rationed unt il it is phased out entirely. A ban on the sale and consumption of meat is something that will have to happen. Plant based foods only.

As for soy it's quite simple - no soy oil equals no soy meal. Processing involves extracting the most valuable component gram for gram - ie the oil and the use of what is leftover from this process as animal feed. It's not really difficult to understand tbh.

The very first lines abstract from the PhD which I linked. If you wish to engage in further discussion of the economics please feel free.

Soybeans are one of the main sources of oil crops around the world. Soybean oil is the most common product of soybean refinery. It is a resource of edible oil and has other food and industrial applications....

If you dont agree with that then that is your perogerative.

Not based particularly on the above but in relation to your POV thingy - the standard of discussion in this thread seems to not infrequently involve potshots / personal abuse and certainly on occasion is sewer level stuff tbh. For reference I'd suggest taking a full read of the thread plus comments etc etc and not just the just the usual silly AH type replies.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Tbh Gozunda I haven't much of a problem with your posts, you singlehandedly do more to rehabilitate the image of vegans than pretty much any other poster. And you do have an admirable ability to stay reasonably civil despite the fact that every time you get into this conversation it ends up with you insisting that vegans cram their ideology and misinformation down people's throats and about ten people, none of whom are necessarily vegans disagreeing with you.

Tis like yer man who used be on telly during the Iraq war insisting everything was going fine and telling people who pointed out that they could hear gunfire or see tanks in the background that nope, they were wrong, no invasion here.

emaherx

IrishKev wrote: »

You really do go around in circles mate. Your main arguments seem to be as follows:
1) Vegans are preachy - From my POV, anyone I've seen posting in favour of veganism has laid down their opinion, their reasoning behind it, and not much more.
2) Soy oil is the main reason behind soy bean cultivation - It's been proven, using the very links you posted yourself, that soy meal i.e. animal feed is the main source of profit from the soy bean. The beans are processed for their oil, which is more expensive gram for gram, but the largest portion of profit comes from soy meal which is grown for animals.

Both of these arguments have been disproven yet you continue to rehash them. It speaks volumes tbh.


Edit: Quotes for reference

All research spent on soy has been purely to increase oil production and remove the rancid taste that's in more traditional varieties. No research money spent improving squashed beans to feed to cattle infact there is no need to squash them to feed to cattle and it would be much simpler to feed them whole if it we're just cattle feed.

Soy oil is so valuable that the oil is not extracted by just squeezing the oil out but solvents are used to remove every possible drop available.

On a gram per gram basis the oil is far more valuable than the meal but there is more meal left over than oil extracted. The price of oil v meal is independent and both fluctuate massively.

Most vegetable oil is similar, rape is grown here for vegetable oil and the left overs is produced into animal feed funnily enough don't see anyone try to claim rapeseed is grown as animal feed. The fact remains there is massive demand for vegetable oil and it is the driver for why these plants are grown. The residues are either going to be animal feed or else waste but it would seem most people would rather they just went to waste.

gozunda

Isaias Chubby Temper wrote: »

Tbh Gozunda I haven't much of a problem with your posts, you singlehandedly do more to rehabilitate the image of vegans than pretty much any other poster. And you do have an admirable ability to stay reasonably civil despite the fact that every time you get into this conversation it ends up with you insisting that vegans cram their ideology and misinformation down people's throats and about ten people, none of whom are necessarily vegans disagreeing with you. Tis like yer man who used be on telly during the Iraq war insisting everything was going fine and telling people who pointed out that they could hear gunfire or see tanks in the background that nope, they were wrong, no invasion here.

Not so electro bitch. I realise its open season on me in this thread See the posters who tried that already.

That comment was most certainly preaching. And again I have no issue with any individual no matter what they chose to eat. And yes I'm happy to diasagee with anyone on actual factual discussions.

However your comment appears though to be ignoring the ball and mainly kicking the player. Not the first time I've seen that tbh. But hey no bother. It's just a discussion. But maybe best try keeping this out of the sewer.

Deebles McBeebles

I do have a question about the video from way back there at the start of the thread, before the Soy Age. Will removing it from my watch history erase all Youtube knowledge of it and if not, how long will the Youtube algorithm keep suggesting videos by the guy who needs to get a hobby?

Paddygreen

Paddygreen wrote: »

Human beings will evolve and reach a higher vibration if we eat just plants.

Jupiter is up Uranus. The omens are positive.

IrishKev

emaherx wrote: »

All research spent on soy has been purely to increase oil production and remove the rancid taste that's in more traditional varieties. No research money spent improving squashed beans to feed to cattle infact there is no need to squash them to feed to cattle and it would be much simpler to feed them whole if it we're just cattle feed.

Soy oil is so valuable that the oil is not extracted by just squeezing the oil out but solvents are used to remove every possible drop available.

On a gram per gram basis the oil is far more valuable than the meal but there is more meal left over than oil extracted. The price of oil v meal is independent and both fluctuate massively.

Most vegetable oil is similar, rape is grown here for vegetable oil and the left overs is produced into animal feed funnily enough don't see anyone try to claim rapeseed is grown as animal feed. The fact remains there is massive demand for vegetable oil and it is the driver for why these plants are grown. The residues are either going to be animal feed or else waste but it would seem most people would rather they just went to waste.

There's no new information there - it's already been well established that the oil is most valuable part of the whole process. But most of the profits come from the animal feed. Without the feed, the bean wouldn't be anywhere near as profitable as it is now. They may be trying to extract more oil etc. but that isn't really relevant to the point that any of us are making. Deforestation is largely down to soy growth - soy beans are predominantly profitable due to animal feed - massive amounts of animal feed are fed to animals which are in turn sold off as meat.

gozunda wrote: »

As for soy it's quite simple - no soy oil equals no soy meal. Processing involves extracting the most valuable component gram for gram - ie the oil and the use of what is leftover from this process as animal feed. It's not really difficult to understand tbh.

See above.

The very first lines abstract from the PhD which I linked. If you wish to engage in further discussion of the economics please feel free.

"Quote:
Soybeans are one of the main sources of oil crops around the world. Soybean oil is the most common product of soybean refinery. It is a resource of edible oil and has other food and industrial applications...."

If you dont agree with that then that is your perogerative.

Are you saying you disagree with the conclusions from that same paper? The line you've quoted doesn't really state any hard facts, it's more of an opening paragraph introduction than a statistical analysis.

emaherx

IrishKev wrote: »

There's no new information there - it's already been well established that the oil is most valuable part of the whole process. But most of the profits come from the animal feed. Without the feed, the bean wouldn't be anywhere near as profitable as it is now. They may be trying to extract more oil etc. but that isn't really relevant to the point that any of us are making. Deforestation is largely down to soy growth - soy beans are predominantly profitable due to animal feed - massive amounts of animal feed are fed to animals which are in turn sold off as meat.

Seems irrelevant, the difference is not vast and subject to change and the demand for vegetable oil is there. Should the demand for soya meal in animal feed die off it's unlikely for demand for vegetable oil to do the same.

Can't see how it could be claimed it's grown because of demand for animal feed. If the demand was simply animal feed it would make far more sense to grow maize which would generate a far greater yield per acre.

Tilikum17

“Meat is murder. Human beings will evolve and reach a higher vibration if we eat just plants. Meat is also one of the main causes of the climate emergency. It is time it was strictly rationed unt il it is phased out entirely. A ban on the sale and consumption of meat is something that will have to happen. Plant based foods only”

gozunda wrote: »

Well you better arrest every meat eating species on the planet and charge them so. But funny thing is that phrase comes from an Album title by the Smith's when Morrisey decided to promote his vegetarian beliefs by selling records.

As for climate change globally the biggest emitter of all greenhouse gases is fossil fuel use in energy and transport near 70%.

Provisional greenhouse gas emission figures for 1990-2018 published by the EPA shows Ireland’s overall emissions have increased by 9.2% since 1990. Transport continues to be the main driver of Ireland’s increasing emissions, having grown by 137% since 1990. Agriculture has risen by just over 1% in the same period. And thats all types of agriculture. That doesnt mean agriculture doesnt have it's part to play. It does.

https://i.imgflip.com/3mal7g.jpg

I know some people dont want eat any animal products because of their personal beliefs and thats fine. But people preaching at everyone and attempting to throw the kitchen sink at those eating a normal diet simply comes across as daft at best.

How in the name of god could you think he was being serious?

And another wall of text in response lol

Paddygreen

bilbot79 wrote: »

Veganism to me is as unnatural as celibacy for priests.

So, so extreme.

And billions of animals murdered isn't?

emaherx

Paddygreen wrote: »

And billions of animals murdered isn't?

It's actually impossible to murder an animal. The only way meat is murder is if you are into cannibalism.

Billions of sentient creatures die to produce plant based foods too, if you have eaten today some poor creatures have died in the production of that food.

Paddygreen

emaherx wrote: »

It's actually impossible to murder an animal. The only way meat is murder is if you are into cannibalism.

Billions of sentient creatures die to produce plant based foods too, if you have eaten today some poor creatures have died in the production of that food.

I had tofu for my dinner with lentils and black bean sauce.. what died?

gozunda

Paddygreen wrote: »

And billions of animals murdered isn't?

Some posters don't think you are being serious I'm afraid

I stepped on a beetle today whilst digging a hole and I think I may have killed sorry murdered some earthworms- does that count? ...