Strict schools

mr_fegelien

What is the point in them? I mean discipline is important but excessive rules like no going to the bathroom, no eating in class, no using phone. When you're in college, none of these apply. Even in the workplace, you don't deal with as much bull**** as you did in some secondary schools.

Why have strict rules only to go to college and workplace where you won't see them implemented?

diusmr8a504cvk

mr_fegelien wrote: »

What is the point in them? I mean discipline is important but excessive rules like no going to the bathroom, no eating in class, no using phone. When you're in college, none of these apply. Even in the workplace, you don't deal with as much bull**** as you did in some secondary schools.

Why have strict rules only to go to college and workplace where you won't see them implemented?

If you don't have those rules you have chaos.

ILoveYourVibes

Its social conditioning to modify child behavior into a generally compliant personalty type.

endacl

Why are grownups with jobs allowed to get the bus home by themselves, but 4 year olds starting school have to be collected?

Bullocks

mr_fegelien wrote: »

What is the point in them? I mean discipline is important but excessive rules like no going to the bathroom, no eating in class, no using phone. When you're in college, none of these apply. Even in the workplace, you don't deal with as much bull**** as you did in some secondary schools.

Why have strict rules only to go to college and workplace where you won't see them implemented?

Eating and using the phone in class should definitely not be allowed, I'd nearly say the same for a workplace. That's what lunch breaks are for.

endacl

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Its social conditioning to modify child behavior into a generally compliant personalty type.

Me hole. It’s so work can be covered without wasting time explaining all the ‘why nots’ to know nothings.

hynesie08

Kids are idiots, kids with rules are still idiots, kids with no rules would be a level of idiot I can't even comprehend......

Beeping Kitchen Appliances

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Its social conditioning to modify child behavior into a generally compliant personalty type.

That's one school of thought.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

mr_fegelien wrote: »

What is the point in them? I mean discipline is important but excessive rules like no going to the bathroom, no eating in class, no using phone. When you're in college, none of these apply. Even in the workplace, you don't deal with as much bull**** as you did in some secondary schools.

Why have strict rules only to go to college and workplace where you won't see them implemented?

Kids need rules or a school wouldn't function. What do you want: The teacher to repeat everything all day as you come back from a quick joint or can of lager?

And, how in hell do you know the restrictions and rules that apply in the workplace when you've never worked? Try constantly nipping out to the toilet or for a cigarette, or spending too long on your mobile while working in many call centres.

Most adults have learned the accepted norms and apply them to their work situations. But, such norms have to be taught to children.

I went to a strict school. It instilled self control and an appreciation for and of contextually appropriate behaviour, important skills in adult life.

ILoveYourVibes

endacl wrote: »

Me hole. It’s so work can be covered without wasting time explaining all the ‘why nots’ to know nothings.

No really it is.

Not in this big sinister way.

Children sometimes have difficulty controlling their behaviors. And in a school they have to be supervised in groups larger than a mother would have to watch over.


You need a certain amounts of self regulation amongst children for that.

Certain things like uniforms and asking for permission to speak do actually help with that.

It has advantages and disadvantages though.

Also its not a good idea for adults. They should be able to modify their behavior alone.

The exception is the army really.

mr_fegelien

Enzo Nutritious Rakish wrote: »

And, how in hell do you know the restrictions and rules that apply in the workplace when you've never worked? Try constantly nipping out to the toilet or for a cigarette, or spending too long on your mobile while working in many call centres.

.

I know because my friend works and it's pretty chill for him. His missed days and never been reprimanded. Also where he works in Dunnes Stores, people are constantly on their phones.

andekwarhola

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Its social conditioning to modify child behavior into a generally compliant personalty type.

Lol

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I know because my friend works and it's pretty chill for him. His missed days and never been reprimanded. Also where he works in Dunnes Stores, people are constantly on their phones.

😂😂

I thought you meant a real job.

And, you ignored the rest of the post - as it doesn't suit you.

ILoveYourVibes

endacl wrote: »

Me hole. It’s so work can be covered without wasting time explaining all the ‘why nots’ to know nothings.

You just said its to stop children questioning things.

Ted_YNWA

Are you getting in trouble in school OP?

lay off the boards & learn is what school is for.

Strumms

For the 40 minutes or whatever the class is going on, there should be nothing happening that can distract a student or indeed teacher... this includes...

ALL phones must be switched off, not silent, OFF

eating should be prohibited... you can’t eat as if you are rummaging for a sandwich/crisps in a bag it’s distracting to you, your fellow students and teacher as can be the act of eating...

I don’t think it’s social conditioning, a class should be a sterile atmosphere almost... discipline to a degree anyway is to enable each and every student a fair chance to learn, the teacher a fair chance to enable their learning in a comfortable and positive yet disciplined atmosphere.

freshpopcorn

School rules are important for you later in life.
They teach you how to be deceptive when you reach the work place.

ILoveYourVibes

Strumms wrote: »

ALL phones must be switched off, not silent, OFF

Lol, today teachers will ask students to go to a site and start reading from it. Or to take a picture with their phones.

In college i got told off for forgetting my phone.

ILoveYourVibes

freshpopcorn wrote: »

School rules are important for you later in life.
They teach you how to be deceptive when you reach the work place.

So true.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

"Your school uniform has a tie so you'll get used to wearing one before you're in the workplace."

I'd say most of my classmates have barely worn a tie since.

corner of hells

Mr_fegelien and Vibes in the same thread ?

Now theres something.

freshpopcorn

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

"Your school uniform has a tie so you'll get used to wearing one before you're in the workplace."

I'd say most of my classmates have barely worn a tie since.

I find it very hard to wear black shoes because of my school days!

andekwarhola

I'm still seeing a psychiatrist about the arrant assault on my individuality 30 years ago re: being expected to be in time for school; wearing a uniform and not being allowed to walk out of class whenever I wanted.

sullivlo

As a teacher who has worked in “strict” and “relaxed” schools, give me discipline any day. It instils a working mindset within the students and better prepares them for the real world. Some day you will get there OP.

ILoveYourVibes

corner of hells wrote: »

Mr_fegelien and Vibes in the same thread ?

Now theres something.

Stop looking for my attention.

baron von something

Enzo Nutritious Rakish wrote: »

😂😂

I thought you meant a real job.

And, you ignored the rest of the post - as it doesn't suit you.

Are retail jobs not 'real jobs'?

ILoveYourVibes

We must compile a database of how to circumvent the rules of the workplace and schools for future generations.

mr_fegelien

sullivlo wrote: »

As a teacher who has worked in “strict” and “relaxed” schools, give me discipline any day. It instils a working mindset within the students and better prepares them for the real world. Some day you will get there OP.

Actually I went to Oatlands a, school that is notoriously strict and they had the notorious Facebook scandal back in 2012. Being too strict can lead kids to do **** things.

Strumms

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Lol, today teachers will ask students to go to a site and start reading from it. Or to take a picture with their phones.

In college i got told off for forgetting my phone.

A tablet, I’d certainly get.... who the hell is going to be reading class stuff from a mobile phone though. Any teacher / lecturer who asks a class to be doing that...jeeez.

ILoveYourVibes

Strumms wrote: »

A tablet, I’d certainly get.... who the hell is going to be reading class stuff from a mobile phone though. Any teacher / lecturer who asks a class to be doing that...jeeez.

Really. Also he got people to log into this site on our phones to do these quizzes.

wexandproud

mr_fegelien wrote: »

What is the point in them? I mean discipline is important but excessive rules like no going to the bathroom, no eating in class, no using phone. When you're in college, none of these apply. Even in the workplace, you don't deal with as much bull**** as you did in some secondary schools.

Why have strict rules only to go to college and workplace where you won't see them implemented?

aaawwwww did teacher take your teddy in class yesterday

0lddog

I like this

0lddog

And I really like this

endacl

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I know because my friend works and it's pretty chill for him. His missed days and never been reprimanded. Also where he works in Dunnes Stores, people are constantly on their phones.

emilymemily

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Its social conditioning to modify child behavior into a generally compliant personalty type.

It has nothing to do with social conditioning. That's ridiculous.

I used to feel the very same way as the OP until I became a teacher.
Ive worked in relaxed and strict schools. The relaxed schools ime are run by the kids and classes are a nightmare to teach. Its not fair on the teaching staff, SNA's or on the other kids in the class that genuinely want to learn, its not even fair on the disruptive kids because theyre not given a chance, theyre given far too many opportunities to act immaturely.
The more relaxed the school, ime, theres a much higher rate of drop outs, exam fails and higher numbers in LCA.

Ive worked in a relaxed school were kids could eat in the class, they would throw the food at each other or leave crumbs, wrappers and bits of food on the table and floor that im left to clean up and usually on my own lunch break.
Its not fair to other kids in the class to have someone else munching away. The classroom is not a lunch room.
Phones are banned for lots of reasons, ive had teenagers using them in class, sending messages to people, using social media, taking photos of other students without permission, watching youtube videos (loudly) during class and when asked to put their phone away the student refused because 'theyre not against the rules', a student was caught sending abusive and inappropriate messages to people in her class, they disrupt teaching. I have course work to get through and a group of 25 students, the class cant revolve around one student who wont put their phone away!
I generally have no problem with students going to the toilet, the problem is when a student doesn't come back from the toilet. It rarely happens but when it does, it disrupts teaching as someone has to go looking for the student.

Im just one teacher in a class of 25 12 - 18 year olds who are immature and if given an inch will take a mile. I also want them to do well and they never will if allowed to do what ever they want. Also, sorry to say but youre not special, a teacher cant be overly considerate of every single students needs, feelings and wants in the classroom. The work has to get done.

WoollyRedHat

endacl wrote: »

Why are grownups with jobs allowed to get the bus home by themselves, but 4 year olds starting school have to be collected?

Because 4-year olds are little bitches.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

baron von something wrote: »

Are retail jobs not 'real jobs'?

He's a PLC student and his friend has a part time job in Dunnes. And you know exactly what I meant.

JohnnyFlash

Enzo Nutritious Rakish wrote: »

He's a PLC student and his friend has a part time job in Dunnes. And you know exactly what I meant.

What did you mean, dude? Because to this observer it looks like you’re being a bit of a knob to be honest.

Stateofyou

emilymemily wrote: »

The more relaxed the school, ime, theres a much higher rate of drop outs, exam fails and higher numbers in LCA.

Firstly to say, I've worked in both super strict and also the most laid back work environment possibly known to man. The super strict work environment is garbage. Treat people like infants and they'll resent their employer and find ways around it. Treat people like adults with freedoms and they'll usually give 200%; let HR deal with the few idiots who take advantage.

Question though - it seems there's now 3 leaving cert options to take, and it looks like you're equating LCA to a lower standard, or somehow easier than another option. Could you (or someone) explain how that or the LCVP is different to a regular/established leaving cert? Things have changed since my day...

mr_fegelien

Stateofyou wrote: »

Firstly to say, I've worked in both super strict and also the most laid back work environment possibly known to man. The super strict work environment is garbage. Treat people like infants and they'll resent their employer and find ways around it. Treat people like adults with freedoms and they'll usually give 200%; let HR deal with the few idiots who take advantage.

Question though - it seems there's now 3 leaving cert options to take, and it looks like you're equating LCA to a lower standard, or somehow easier than another option. Could you (or someone) explain how that or the LCVP is different to a regular/established leaving cert? Things have changed since my day...

Remember that style of management from business, autocratic, democratic and laissez faire.

The extremes are only necessary when the management is either mature enough (laissez faire) or full of incompetent fools (autocratic)

Fr_Dougal

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Remember that style of management from business, autocratic, democratic and laissez faire.

The extremes are only necessary when the management is either mature enough (laissez faire) or full of incompetent fools (autocratic)

What would you know about management or anything else work related? You’ve never worked a day in your life.

TheValeyard

Stateofyou wrote: »

Firstly to say, I've worked in both super strict and also the most laid back work environment possibly known to man. The super strict work environment is garbage. Treat people like infants and they'll resent their employer and find ways around it. Treat people like adults with freedoms and they'll usually give 200%; let HR deal with the few idiots who take advantage.

Question though - it seems there's now 3 leaving cert options to take, and it looks like you're equating LCA to a lower standard, or somehow easier than another option. Could you (or someone) explain how that or the LCVP is different to a regular/established leaving cert? Things have changed since my day...

LCVP is basically just an extra subject. Students who are sitting two or more ordinary level subjects often take it as its extremely easy and offers more points than an ordinary subject.

JohnnyFlash

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

What would you know about management or anything else work related? You’ve never worked a day in your life.

And he lives rent free inside your head as well.

mikemac2

An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?

moonage

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Its social conditioning to modify child behavior into a generally compliant personalty type.

Education is not the primary function of schools.

They are mainly glorified child-minding facilities and a means of conditioning youngsters to believe that being in a place from 8am to 4pm Monday to Friday under strict rules is normal—this produces nice, compliant worker bees.

EmmetSpiceland

Conduct and deportment were two of the main “tenets” of my schooling. To be honest, I, personally, feel that both have served me well in both my professional and personal life.

Granted, my school was one that didn’t have subjects like woodwork or metalwork. We focused on the “main” subjects that would lead to a college place and not to a PLC or trade job where conduct, or deportment, might not be as important.

freshpopcorn

I went to a school where the principal was strict about uniforms and the the odd staff member.
They were rules about phones, etc Some teachers were very strict and others were more relaxed once you weren't being disruptive.
Some of the strict teachers got good result and did the more relaxed teachers.
Some of the strict and relaxed teachers were useless.
People's results were also fairly consistent.
The main difference was in my experience people went onto hate the stricter teachers subject and only did it for points or because they had to.

OneArt

mr_fegelien wrote: »

What is the point in them? I mean discipline is important but excessive rules like no going to the bathroom, no eating in class, no using phone. When you're in college, none of these apply. Even in the workplace, you don't deal with as much bull**** as you did in some secondary schools.

Why have strict rules only to go to college and workplace where you won't see them implemented?

That's because workplaces vary wildly. The point of rules at work is so that things actually get done. Some are strict because it's a matter of life or death (hospitals, working with dangerous chemicals). Others are strict because they have a certain standard (dresscodes for people working in fancy hotels, etc). Following these rules is a part of your job.


In my industry though, strict dresscodes, rigid working times etc. are in pointless nitpicking, incredibly patronizing and a big red flag that the company/manager doesn't have their priorities right. We don't even need to be physically present, we just need to be available during business hours. We can take as many breaks as we want, as long as we're available for important meetings and actually produce the output we're paid to produce.



School, however, is about instilling certain values. Kids need to be conditioned to some degree, at least.

emilymemily

Stateofyou wrote: »

Firstly to say, I've worked in both super strict and also the most laid back work environment possibly known to man. The super strict work environment is garbage. Treat people like infants and they'll resent their employer and find ways around it. Treat people like adults with freedoms and they'll usually give 200%; let HR deal with the few idiots who take advantage.

Question though - it seems there's now 3 leaving cert options to take, and it looks like you're equating LCA to a lower standard, or somehow easier than another option. Could you (or someone) explain how that or the LCVP is different to a regular/established leaving cert? Things have changed since my day...

Im in no way condoning super strict schools, I see no point in creating rules for the sake of it.
Also, we are not talking about adults in work, we're talking about children who are immature and need basic rules to keep behavior under control for the safety, respect and care needs of everyone in the school.
Doesn't take a genius to know that teenagers brains arent fully formed, they don't have the same understanding of empathy, consideration of consequences or foresight as adult's, that's why rules are in place, to keep them safe and help them learn.

LCA could be a fantastic option for students who dislike the mainstream system and prefare practical lessons, it's run sort of like a Youthreach or further ed course, less rules, students given more autonomy, can maybe use their phones, smaller classes etc. Ive found these groups to be extremely difficult to work with. or example, I subbed not so long ago in a school where I had two LCA groups, both LCA groups had an SNA with them in every class and sometimes an extra teacher as they were so difficult behavior wise, they ran the class, screamed and shouted at staff, threw paper, pens, food and what ever else they could get their hands on all around the class, I tried to get a bit of work out of them but was told to f off. Some days it was easier to just stick on a movie and be done with it.
LCA is an option mostly given to kids who are at high risk of dropping out of school. The most relaxed schools ive been in, where kids are allowed phones, food in class and in halls, can come in late in the mornings with no note or explanation etc, have the highest numbers of LCA students. These kids arent learning anything, theyre just about being kept in school and off the streets. Theyre also feeding off each others immature behavior, each trying to out do the other, peer pressure is a massive problem among these groups.

The stricter schools ive been in, as in strict but with appropriate rules that make sense and arent for demonstrating authority, like no phones, homework must be done, no tolerance for disrespect towards staff or other students, no eating outside the lunch room, some of these schools have had to cancel LCA years as they didnt have enough students signing up, the students have consistently better relationships with staff, there are still issues but theyre dealt with appropriately as everyone is aware of the rules and the rules are consistent. They also have consistently better results in exams and leaving certificate, theyre happier in school. These schools foster maturity and create a secure environment were students are expected to make good choices for themselves and be conscientious of their fellow students and members of staff.

When theyre adults and leave school, they have the freedom then to act how they want and to do what they want, whether that be going to college, working, travelling or doing nothing for a year, we would hope that they leave school with a good level of maturity and the ability to know right from wrong and make the right choices.

freshpopcorn

Something I did pick up off on some teachers was kind of a snotty attitude about people doing LCA or not going the traditional path in choosing careers.Thinking back on it I'm not surprised people acted up on them especially for those who were already having difficulties.