RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

ZuluDawn2020

Apparently a ceremony is going to be held attended by the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner to comemorate members of the DMP (Dublin Metropolitan Police) and RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) killed during the Irish Revolution.

Does anyone else think this is grotesque?

Edgware

ZuluDawn2020 wrote: »

Apparently a ceremony is going to be held attended by the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner to comemorate members of the DMP (Dublin Metropolitan Police) and RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) killed during the Irish Revolution.

Does anyone else think this is grotesque?

Shouldn't this ceremony be held on the same day we commemorate the British agents killed on Bloody Sunday?

I have no problem remembering the thousands of Irishmen killed in the Great War who enlisted for political, economic or adventure reasons but this is going too far

Del2005

ZuluDawn2020 wrote: »

Apparently a ceremony is going to be held attended by the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner to comemorate members of the DMP (Dublin Metropolitan Police) and RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) killed during the Irish Revolution.

Does anyone else think this is grotesque?

Considering that they where Irish people why shouldn't we commemorate them? Picking the wrong side doesn't make them less Irish and in a war neither party has a moral high ground.

Edgware

Del2005 wrote: »

Considering that they where Irish people why shouldn't we commemorate them? Picking the wrong side doesn't make them less Irish and in a war neither party has a moral high ground.

The Irish people made their wishes known in the 1918 election. Members of the R.I.C. and D.M.P. acted contrary to those wishes. The Republican leadership appealed to these Irishmen to quit in 1919 and support the Republic. Many did, others didnt and participated willingly in prolonging the war, roundng up suspects, assisting the Auxies and Tans

Stovepipe

@edgware (nice English name, by the way), what is forgotten is that hundreds of thousands of Irish lives depended on the income from those police jobs and the Republicans knew that. Lives also depended on remittances and pensions from Irishmen previously or actively serving in the UK armed forces worldwide, so it was not an easy decision for an RIC or DMP person to suddenly quit and deprive their families of an income. Same with Civil Servants, the Royal Mail and countless other jobs that depended on the Empire. Quite often, there was no alternative income available, short of some menial agricultural job or factory job, which invariably paid less and offered worse conditions. The prospect of a future Republic where well-paying jobs would be plentiful,social conditions would improve and where the Irish would have a rightful place in the world were regarded as high fantasy. As for Republicans,many of their households were quite happy to accept remittances in the pound Sterling. Remember the old catcall? "Hates the Crown! Loves the half-crown".
I'd have no issue with commemorating the RIC and DMP, especially when you consider how the Gardai were based on them and depended heavily on their corporate experience to get off the ground.

super_furry

ZuluDawn2020 wrote: »

Does anyone else think this is grotesque?

Not at all.

If there's ever going to be any hopes of a United Ireland, it's going to be crucial to show that unionists and loyalists will be respected and treated as equal in unity.

It may be distasteful to those of a Republican persuasion but gestures like this offer a real example of inclusivity.

r3nu4l

super_furry wrote: »

Not at all.

If there's ever going to be any hopes of a United Ireland, it's going to be crucial to show that unionists and loyalists will be respected and treated as equal in unity.

It may be distasteful to those of a Republican persuasion but gestures like this offer a real example of inclusivity.

This, a thousand times! A true Republican wants a United Ireland, not a 'win'. The only way to successfully achieve that is to ensure all citizens of the country feel welcome and a part of that country. That means commemorating and celebrating all parts of our history, together.

We have far too many pseudo-Republicans in this country who hate 'the prods' and 'the Brits'

The Satanist

They were collaborators and traitors. I celebrate only their death.

corner of hells

I've family members who served in RIC , a father and son , their names appear occasionally in historical journals and the odd newspaper report from courts.
Both reached the rank of County Inspector with one passing away in the 1880s and the other in 1906.

One was prior to joining the RIC ,an officer in the British army and fought in the Napoleonic wars.

Their grave/headstone and career is documented as being of historical interest in Ireland.

Hamsterchops

The Satanist wrote: »

They were collaborators and traitors. I celebrate only their death.

Yet their an ancesters walk amongst us.....

Many of them "traitors" plain old Dublin policemen on the beat who became the enemy overnight, courtesy of their Republican brothers & sisters who demanded a new State & a total break with our neighbors!

Sounds a bit like a hard Brexit, sadly with lots of death thrown in the mix

Del2005

Edgware wrote: »

The Irish people made their wishes known in the 1918 election. Members of the R.I.C. and D.M.P. acted contrary to those wishes. The Republican leadership appealed to these Irishmen to quit in 1919 and support the Republic. Many did, others didnt and participated willingly in prolonging the war, roundng up suspects, assisting the Auxies and Tans

I'd like to see what decision you make when you have to decide on a job or your family dieing of hunger, there was no social welfare then, and maybe they believed that staying in the British Empire was good for Ireland.

As I said neither side has the high ground in a war.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Doesn't bother me, and if it helps to heal the wounds of the past then let it be.

Most people here don't see the past rear its ugly head too often, or not in your face but I would regularly enough.

As a member of the defence forces there are certain bars and certain area's along the border where I'd be advised not to venture into, because I'm still seen as a 'free state bastard'.

It used to happen more than it does now, but its still there.

As a country we've still got our scars and healing wounds. Let this one be healed and done with.

Montage of Feck

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Yet their an ancesters walk amongst us.....

Many of them "traitors" plain old Dublin policemen on the beat who became the enemy overnight, courtesy of their Republican brothers & sisters who demanded a new State & a total break with our neighbors!

Sounds a bit like a hard Brexit, sadly with lots of death thrown in the mix

Hardly a honest comparison, unless I missed the part where the EU carried out acts of genocide, ethnic and religious descrimination and economic exploitation against the UK.

gandalf

Jaysus talk about peak snowflake! This is part of our past, what do you want to do hide it. We've done that with other parts of our history and that's worked out real well hasn't it.

The key word is commemorate not celebrate and as has already been stated if a united Ireland is a goal any of us want then we have to embrace our whole past and not the selective bits that make the OP feel comfortable with.

Dyr

Blue shirts, Ted. blue shirts.

One assumes Macron will follows Leos brave lead and announce a commemoration for the Vichy regime.

I wonder if the defence forces will be apologizing for beating Noel Lemass to death and dumping his body up the mountains or tying prisoners to landmines. Or will the spirit of reconcilliation not stretch that far?

TheValeyard

Bambi wrote: »

Blue shirts, Ted. blue shirts.

One assumes Macron will follows Leos brave lead and announce a commemoration for the Vichy regime.

I wonder if the defence forces will be apologizing for beating Noel Lemass to death and dumping his body up the mountains or tying prisoners to landmines. Or will the spirit of reconcilliation not stretch that far?

Yep. The civil war commemorations are going to make some uncomfortable reading.

TheValeyard

Also agree with the OP, while many in the RIC sided with the IRA and became garda afterwards, there were those in the DMC and RIC who actually helped the Auxiliaries and the Tans. That should not be commemorated. It be like the Germans holding a service for the Gestapo or the Stasi.

cryptocurrency

The Satanist wrote: »

They were collaborators and traitors. I celebrate only their death.

This is the problem with Ireland today

Kermit.de.frog

ZuluDawn2020 wrote: »

Apparently a ceremony is going to be held attended by the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner to comemorate members of the DMP (Dublin Metropolitan Police) and RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) killed during the Irish Revolution.

Does anyone else think this is grotesque?

My great grandfather was in the DMP. He was, I guess, "nationalist" with a small n.

At the end of the day most were just doing their jobs as police officers.

A lot of people also did not care for the politics either way at the time.

How people misconstrue that as being for or against something is beyond me.

Dyr

cryptocurrency wrote: »

This is the problem with Ireland today

It was the problem with Ireland 100 years ago, thankfully we sorted it out back then.

CrankyHaus

The Bloody Sunday massacre of civilian spectators at Croke Park was perpetrated by the RIC. What other country in the world honours those who massacred its civilians to repress that country's freedom and independence?
This ahistorical masochism has to end.

Like many posting I know of at least one distant relative who was in the RIC. I just don't believe in rewriting history to legitimise their membership of that explicitly and intentionally oppressive force.

minikin

TheValeyard wrote: »

Also agree with the OP, while many in the RIC sided with the IRA and became garda afterwards, there were those in the DMC and RIC who actually helped the Auxiliaries and the Tans. That should not be commemorated. It be like the Germans holding a service for the Gestapo or the Stasi.

Volkstrauertag - a commemoration of ALL who died in war and by oppressive governments.

If we don’t humanise all who died then the headbangers will try to dehumanise them and that only leads to further death.

And before anyone starts... have ancestors that were involved in opposing sides of the conflict: RIC and Old IRA.Simplifying our history into ‘them and us’ ignores the reality of Ireland at the time.

Hamsterchops

Wow, lots of talk in this thread about genocide, Nazis, Gestapo, oppression & massacre ......

The RIC & the DMP were neither Nazi's nor the Gestapo, they were in the most good honest law abiding Irish citizens, doing their job in good faith.

The IRA were no Saints...

CrankyHaus

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Wow, lots of talk in this thread about genocide, Nazis, Gestapo, oppression & massacre ......

The RIC & the DMP were neither Nazi's nor the Gestapo, they were in the most good honest law abiding Irish citizens, doing their job in good faith.

They weren't Irish citizens as Ireland did not exist as a state to be a citizen of.
They were willing British subjects who took an oath of loyalty to the crown.

They were not neighbourhood Gardai enforcing the law by consent and Peelian Principals.
They were a force of Gendarmerie armed with rifles enforcing the rule of the crown through force and terror.

They performed evictions at gunpoint of starving tenants at the behest of absentee landlords.
They baton charged the public, mainly mass goers, during the 1913 lockout and beat 2 to death while injuring 400 - 600.
They perpetrated the Bloody Sunday Massacre.
They accepted serving alongside the RIC Auxiliary Division, which challenged the Black and Tans for human rights abuses, during the war of Independence.


The nonsense you spouted has zero basis in fact and is a perfect example of the kind of ahistorical masochism I mentioned above.

Hamsterchops

Born and raised in Ireland & of Irish ancestry but not Irish!

Yes of course they were British subjects, as Ireland was part of the UK back then, but they were still our Kith & kin with Irish accents, heck as I've said before, their ancesters walk amongst us today, still with Irish accents...

CrankyHaus

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Born and raised in Ireland & of Irish ancestry but not Irish!

Yes of course they were British subjects, as Ireland was part of the UK back then, but they were still out Kith & kin with Irish accents, heck as I've said before, their an ancesters walk amongs us today, still with Irish accents...

And why should we honour them and the terrible deeds they committed?
Because they did it with a Kerry brogue?


Sorry but that doesn't cut it for me, or any reasonable person.


We can acknowledge that Irish people in the RIC attempted to serve the law within a corrupt system; we can sympathise with their decisions made in the face of limited choices; we can respect that many may have been good people; but we cannot deny that they served and defended an oppressive and corrupt system, responsible for the death of about 1 million Irish in the famine.


When we commemorate and honour those who served in that organisation, we honour that organisation and all of the deeds it committed. I do not want my country to honour the massacre and oppression of my countrymen. It is perverse, you would find no other country in the world that would even consider it.


What this is about is a bunch of Gardai whose great great grandaddies took an oath to the crown and now they want to rewrite this country's history for their own selfish desire to remove a stain from their family history. That is not right. This is all of our history, not just theirs to rewrite as it suits them.

Hamsterchops

Don't talk to me about rewriting history Mr Cranky!

corner of hells

CrankyHaus wrote: »

And why should we honour them and the terrible deeds they committed?
Because they did it with a Kerry brogue?


Sorry but that doesn't cut it for me, or any reasonable person.


We can acknowledge that Irish people in the RIC attempted to serve the law within a corrupt system; we can sympathise with their decisions made in the face of limited choices; we can respect that many may have been good people; but we cannot deny that they served and defended an oppressive and corrupt system, responsible for the death of about 1 million Irish in the famine.


When we commemorate and honour those who served in that organisation, we honour that organisation and all of the deeds it committed. I do not want my country to honour the massacre and oppression of my countrymen. It is perverse, you would find no other country in the world that would even consider it.


What this is about is a bunch of Gardai whose great great grandaddies took an oath to the crown and now they want to rewrite this country's history for their own selfish desire to remove a stain from their family history. That is not right. This is all of our history, not just theirs to rewrite as it suits them.

Let's never move forward, we should always bear grudges forever and never want progression.

"Remove a stain from their family history ..." .
There's no stain in my family history, a history I can put back to the 1300s all over the world.

mynamejeff

CrankyHaus wrote: »

They weren't Irish citizens as Ireland did not exist as a state to be a citizen of.
They were willing British subjects who took an oath of loyalty to the crown.

They were not neighbourhood Gardai enforcing the law by consent and Peelian Principals.
They were a force of Gendarmerie armed with rifles enforcing the rule of the crown through force and terror.

They performed evictions at gunpoint of starving tenants at the behest of absentee landlords.
They baton charged the public, mainly mass goers, during the 1913 lockout and beat 2 to death while injuring 400 - 600.
They perpetrated the Bloody Sunday Massacre.
They accepted serving alongside the RIC Auxiliary Division, which challenged the Black and Tans for human rights abuses, during the war of Independence.


The nonsense you spouted has zero basis in fact and is a perfect example of the kind of ahistorical masochism I mentioned above.

Thats a nice junior cert level bar stool history lesson.
you realise most of the people who fought in the war of independence were british subjects by default and that many worked for the British civil service (including collins and other leaders)
They were a police force just like any police force in the world at the time and less militaristic than most. Most didnt often carry firearms infact. Most just wanted a steady job with a pension.

the vast majority of RIC and DMP were more interested in protecting their familys and income post war of independence civil war and many moved across into AGS as they were the only ones who has professional experience.

More or less everything you said is incorrect ill informed and baseless but sure thats boards.ie for ya

mynamejeff

cryptocurrency wrote: »

This is the problem with Ireland today

No just one person with a problem

Sunny Disposition

Yeah, it is going a bit far. They had to be taken on or freedom could not be achieved. As severe as it sounds the truth is that they deserved to be killed.

CrankyHaus

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Yeah, it is going a bit far. They had to be taken on or freedom could not be achieved. As severe as it sounds the truth is that they deserved to be killed.

I disagree with that. Many or even most were just normal Irish people doing their best with limited opportunities under a corrupt and oppressive system. Their conflicted loyalties in the War of Independence is evidence of that.

However there is a huge gap between recognising that and giving them a state commemoration, that is the state paying respects to an organisation that oppressed, terrorised and murdered Irish people for a century (a period which included the penal laws).

It's disappointing, but not surprising, to see this government turning our history into a pack of lies with which to whitewash some people's family histories. As the son of one of Ireland's foremost anti semites, who proposed ethnic cleansing in emulation of the Nazis, I'm sure Charlie Flanagan can relate to such people.

Incidentally, when has the Irish state commemorating the RIC ever been a core demand of the Ulster Unionist community? Their concerns are generally far more prosaic and their extermists would view most of the RIC as a rabble of southern Taigs anyway.

Scoundrel

Absolutely gross subservience from FG no other nation on earth commemorates it's traitors. Do the Russians commemorate the Vlasov army? Do the Norwegians commemorate Quisling and his men? Do the French commemorate the Vichy? The Belgians Degrelle? etc etc It really is incredibly insulting

TheValeyard

minikin wrote: »

Volkstrauertag - a commemoration of ALL who died in war and by oppressive governments.

If we don’t humanise all who died then the headbangers will try to dehumanise them and that only leads to further death.

And before anyone starts... have ancestors that were involved in opposing sides of the conflict: RIC and Old IRA.Simplifying our history into ‘them and us’ ignores the reality of Ireland at the time.

From what I understood, It does not remember Stasi/ SS but rather their victims. I do see why they remember the soldiers of the wehrmacht though.

KWAG2019

There is so much objectionable, nonsensical and offensive about this commemoration that it is hard to know where to start.

The RIC/DMP were agents of British colonial control and oppression in Ireland. There is no reason to commemorate that or its agents.

What has happened now is that there is a version of "inclusivity" used to promote absurdities like this commemoration. These men may like many others who served in Brit forces have had all sorts of reasons for doing so but those are all irrelevant in the commemoration of the War of Independence. That commemoration should be of those who fought and died for our freedom, not those who opposed it. By resurrecting the division of 100 years ago the govt has been divisive and provocative. The HARP group of those who promote the memory of RIC/DMP may see this as a win for them but they have re-opened old wounds. It reflects nothing on anybody today that they had a relative in DMP/RIC or British forces upholding colonial oppression here. By creating a commemoration that seeks to honour and remember those who fought against our freedom the State is showing the absurd lack of confidence which has bedevilled it in recent years.

There is also an absurd idea that by doing this you are advancing unity. There is a profound naivete and innocence about dealing with Unionists/loyalists and that obsequiousness like this make us more attractive to them. You don't negotiate in advance of negotiations and you don't declare your hand unless you've already surrendered.

And let's be very clear: there is an agenda of undermining our status as an independent sovereign republic. When the Minister of Justice refers to the killing of RIC/DMP as "murder" he denies that the War of Independence was a struggle for our freedom. He is implicitly upholding the imposition of British colonialism by force by that force. When John Bruton refers to the highlight of his time as Taoiseach as meeting the Prince of Wales you begin to get a sense of something. There are people in the 26 counties today who wish us to rejoin the British Commonwealth. Who wish us to be a satellite of Britain tied by some sort of federal solution akin to Home Rule. That is fine: as long as they are open about it. When state commemorations are set up in such a way as to dishonour the generation that won our freedom they are not fine.

Kermit.de.frog

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Yeah, it is going a bit far. They had to be taken on or freedom could not be achieved. As severe as it sounds the truth is that they deserved to be killed.

No one deserves to be killed for either their political beliefs or simply doing their job.


No one.

Kermit.de.frog

KWAG2019 wrote: »

There are people in the 26 counties today who wish us to rejoin the British Commonwealth. Who wish us to be a satellite of Britain tied by some sort of federal solution akin to Home Rule. That is fine: as long as they are open about it. When state commemorations are set up in such a way as to dishonour the generation that won our freedom they are not fine.

Who is calling for any of this?

corner of hells

KWAG2019 wrote: »

There is so much objectionable, nonsensical and offensive about this commemoration that it is hard to know where to start.

The RIC/DMP were agents of British colonial control and oppression in Ireland. There is no reason to commemorate that or its agents.

What has happened now is that there is a version of "inclusivity" used to promote absurdities like this commemoration. These men may like many others who served in Brit forces have had all sorts of reasons for doing so but those are all irrelevant in the commemoration of the War of Independence. That commemoration should be of those who fought and died for our freedom, not those who opposed it. By resurrecting the division of 100 years ago the govt has been divisive and provocative. The HARP group of those who promote the memory of RIC/DMP may see this as a win for them but they have re-opened old wounds. It reflects nothing on anybody today that they had a relative in DMP/RIC or British forces upholding colonial oppression here. By creating a commemoration that seeks to honour and remember those who fought against our freedom the State is showing the absurd lack of confidence which has bedevilled it in recent years.

There is also an absurd idea that by doing this you are advancing unity. There is a profound naivete and innocence about dealing with Unionists/loyalists and that obsequiousness like this make us more attractive to them. You don't negotiate in advance of negotiations and you don't declare your hand unless you've already surrendered.

And let's be very clear: there is an agenda of undermining our status as an independent sovereign republic. When the Minister of Justice refers to the killing of RIC/DMP as "murder" he denies that the War of Independence was a struggle for our freedom. He is implicitly upholding the imposition of British colonialism by force by that force. When John Bruton refers to the highlight of his time as Taoiseach as meeting the Prince of Wales you begin to get a sense of something. There are people in the 26 counties today who wish us to rejoin the British Commonwealth. Who wish us to be a satellite of Britain tied by some sort of federal solution akin to Home Rule. That is fine: as long as they are open about it. When state commemorations are set up in such a way as to dishonour the generation that won our freedom they are not fine.

How many would like to rejoin the commonwealth?

I've heard of the reform group and found this article.

"Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald told TheJournal.ie last year that rejoining the Commonwealth was something that could be discussed as part of discussions on a united Ireland.

McDonald said on Tuesday that it was not something she was personally in favour of while Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said it was “not something that’s on the agenda”.

TheValeyard

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

No one deserves to be killed for either their political beliefs or simply doing their job.


No one.

Well........... Maybe Stalin, Mao, or the guy who came up with the idea of dance music

FTA69

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

No one deserves to be killed for either their political beliefs or simply doing their job.


No one.

There was a war on. On one side were the forces of liberation and on the other side was a paramilitary police force paid by a foreign power in order to keep us a subjugated colony. They were collaborators in the same vein as Algerians or Vietnamese who fought with the French; people like them were to be found in every colony across the world.

A loss of life in any context is a tragedy but there was a right and a wrong side in some conflicts; those who turned on their own people to aid British imperialism were on the wrong side. The Black and Tan mercenaries who fought alongside them were also on the wrong side.

minikin

TheValeyard wrote: »

From what I understood, It does not remember Stasi/ SS but rather their victims. I do see why they remember the soldiers of the wehrmacht though.

I’d imagine all means all.

spurious

If it throws light on the cartoonish version of history some commenting here seem to have been given, it's great news.

There was savagery all round.

Hamsterchops

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

They had to be taken on or freedom could not be achieved. As severe as it sounds the truth is that they deserved to be killed.

Indeed myth has it that Countess Markievicz dispatched one of those "that deserved to be killed" by shooting him in the head in Stephens Green. Apparently this constable on foot tried to usher the Fenians out of the park so she shot him dead, for this she's a hero and he's almost forgotten.....

FTA69

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Indeed myth has it that Countess Markievicz dispatched one of those "that deserved to be killed" by shooting him in the head in Stephens Green. Apparently this constable on foot tried to usher the Fenians out of the park so she shot him dead, for this she's a hero and he's almost forgotten.....

Fair play to her.

corner of hells

FTA69 wrote: »

Fair play to her.

Yup , bearing in mind the DMP were largely unarmed.

KWAG2019

This proposal is a divisive insult to those who wish to honour those who fought for our freedom. The govt will attempt to control local groups through grants as usual. Their view of history is a denial of reality and an attempt to smuggle unionism into currency on the back of revisionism and condescension. I will attend no govt commemorations and I will donate to local groups who wish to ignore this insult.

Hamsterchops

FTA69 wrote: »

Fair play to her.

He was an unarmed police constable with a family.

corner of hells

KWAG2019 wrote: »

This proposal is a divisive insult to those who wish to honour those who fought for our freedom. The govt will attempt to control local groups through grants as usual. Their view of history is a denial of reality and an attempt to smuggle unionism into currency on the back of revisionism and condescension. I will attend no govt commemorations and I will donate to local groups who wish to ignore this insult.

If the local group is a registered charity and you donate 250euros , you'll be able to claim tax relief.
Though you'd have to interact with the government.

KWAG2019

corner of hells wrote: »

If the local group is a registered charity and you donate 250euros , you'll be able to claim tax relief.
Though you'd have to interact with the government.

Everyone does. Especially at election time.

Dyr

corner of hells wrote: »

Yup , bearing in mind the DMP were largely unarmed.

Unlike the RIC who were armed like a militia in their *checks notes* ..yep..in their barracks.

Although some would have you think they went about their business of keeping the locals in check with only feather dusters and a cheery smile

saabsaab

I believe that a UI is around the corner and many 'Loyalists' see this too.



Although RIC and DMP ended up on the wrong side in 1919-1921 most were at the time ordinary policemen caught up in it and trying to do a job. Several were unhappy with the way the force was used to subjugate the Irish people and worked often in secret for the rebels. A relation of mine was in the DMP but died in the first world war.



Don't confuse them with the 'Black and Tans' or 'Auxiliaries' specifically recruited to put down the rebellion they are a different group.