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Dream time. If you had €200 billion what would you spend it on?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,494 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    This is an infrastructure thread, not a nationalist tub thumping thread.

    Cheers.
    But that is nowhere near the proposed bridge.

    See the proposed bridge is not for overall infra between Ireland and the UK

    It's for Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales

    NI will benefit huge from it, especially if there is a hard border.
    South, not so much, even less if there is a hard border.

    In terms of the Dyke, no one has actually mapped out what's down there.
    Ammo is usually steel, it's been down there for almost 80 years at this point, most of it has probably corroded away, especially if it's in mud.
    They wont know until they go down and have look.
    And even then they only need to clear the patch where the bridge will be.

    The main thing stopping it being built is that it would require 30 pillars to support the bridge, the longest being 1400m (Note: Burj Khalifa is 830m)
    Technically it could be done though, we already have natural gas platforms that are 500m

    Other issue is the weather


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    But that is nowhere near the proposed bridge.

    Obviously you'd take a branch off the HS London mainline. But they're proposing road, not rail.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭ Rayna Slow Salami


    See the proposed bridge is not for overall infra between Ireland and the UK
    It's for Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales
    NI will benefit huge from it, especially if there is a hard border.
    South, not so much, even less if there is a hard border.
    Agree it would be real pain to build (if even possible), and the weather would mean very regular closures.

    While it may be built/started under a UK Boris-plan, it could well (later) become a bridge of a broken union (Indie Scotland) and a soft Ire goods border. It's likely goods will have a softer approach, than services for export.

    A 28mile fast crossing could well mean easier exports from Dub to the 2m+ population of Scots central belt area. An Indie Scot could well match the current exports from ROI to NI (worth about €1.7bn pa).


    dKi75Fm.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,823 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    See the proposed bridge is not for overall infra between Ireland and the UK

    It's for Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales

    NI will benefit huge from it, especially if there is a hard border.
    South, not so much, even less if there is a hard border.

    In terms of the Dyke, no one has actually mapped out what's down there.
    Ammo is usually steel, it's been down there for almost 80 years at this point, most of it has probably corroded away, especially if it's in mud.
    They wont know until they go down and have look.
    And even then they only need to clear the patch where the bridge will be.

    The main thing stopping it being built is that it would require 30 pillars to support the bridge, the longest being 1400m (Note: Burj Khalifa is 830m)
    Technically it could be done though, we already have natural gas platforms that are 500m

    Other issue is the weather

    NI would benefit far more with £20bn invested within the six counties as opposed to this proposed bridge.

    But Johnson is behind it, the man who said he'd lie down in front of the bulldozers at Heathrow.

    A compulsive liar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2 Scolionophobia


    20bn - Service the national debt

    40bn - Rail / Cycling infrastructure
    Get Dart Underground and Metro North expedited and completed within 5 years.
    2 more Luas lines for Dublin.
    1 more Metro for Dublin
    Luas for Cork, Limerick, Galway
    Upgrade lines between Irish cities to halve journey times.
    Use what’s left over to upgrade cycling infrastructure to the standard of Dutch cities.

    40bn - Roads
    Dublin outer loop that starts north of Swords, goes through Dunboyne and reconnects with the M50 at Marley Park
    A Leinster outer loop stat starts north of Drogheda and ends in Wexford
    Every other project in the pipeline, Galway bypass, Cork to Limerick.
    Whatever’s left over should be used to build a road network that would accommodate an Irish population of 20,000,000. Or at the very least CPO all land needed for a road network that would accommodate 20,000,000.


    60bn - Renewable energy
    A massive number of offshore wind turbines
    Storage: 2 days of average national energy use


    40bn - Housing development
    Build multiple planned towns with housing, school, shops, access to good public transport.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,412 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    But that is nowhere near the proposed bridge.

    I don't think that's going to make much difference to the proposed bridge ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,264 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Markcheese wrote: »
    I don't think that's going to make much difference to the proposed bridge ...

    If you mean it is vapour-ware, then yes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭Lord Fairlord


    [

    Spoilsport - maybe.

    HS2 to Scotland sounds good, but where in Scotland - it is a big place and Stranraer is a good way from the border - 2 hours by car to Gretna Green. I cannot see any such bridge being built this century - if ever. I think teleporting will be more likely.

    Perhaps a floating tunnel might be a better idea, but a 40 km tunnel would be some trick - too long for vehicles as it would require ventilation.

    More likely is one going from Rosslare to the Welsh coast using artificial islands as there are sandbanks there. Or possible Dublin to Holyhead, as at least there would be traffic that way. Oh, wait - there is Brexit on the way, so where would the checks be?

    If there is to ever be a fixed connection from Ireland to Britain it should be to Wales. A tunnel with artificial islands for ventilation IMO. It'd probably have to be to north Wales as south Wales has plenty of rail traffic as is. It'll not happen anytime soon I'd imagine as the cost would presumably be astronomical.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭Lord Fairlord


    20bn - Service the national debt

    40bn - Rail / Cycling infrastructure
    Get Dart Underground and Metro North expedited and completed within 5 years.
    2 more Luas lines for Dublin.
    1 more Metro for Dublin
    Luas for Cork, Limerick, Galway
    Upgrade lines between Irish cities to halve journey times.
    Use what’s left over to upgrade cycling infrastructure to the standard of Dutch cities.

    40bn - Roads
    Dublin outer loop that starts north of Swords, goes through Dunboyne and reconnects with the M50 at Marley Park
    A Leinster outer loop stat starts north of Drogheda and ends in Wexford
    Every other project in the pipeline, Galway bypass, Cork to Limerick.
    Whatever’s left over should be used to build a road network that would accommodate an Irish population of 20,000,000. Or at the very least CPO all land needed for a road network that would accommodate 20,000,000.


    60bn - Renewable energy
    A massive number of offshore wind turbines
    Storage: 2 days of average national energy use


    40bn - Housing development
    Build multiple planned towns with housing, school, shops, access to good public transport.

    What would be your two new Dublin Luas lines?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    dev92c wrote: »
    I’d put 150 billion into a united Ireland fund so we can handle post-reunification infrastructure projects once the border poll passes.

    I’d put the other 50 billion into extending the M2 from Ashbourne to Ardee, the M4 from Mullingar to Sligo and the M7 from Naas to a new Junction 8 on the M50 as per original plans.


    50 Billion?! Are these roads to be paved with gold?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2 Scolionophobia


    What would be your two new Dublin Luas lines?

    Whatever routes there's the best case for. I'd guess one line north west towards Blanchardstown and another one towards Tallaght.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    The Cork 124,391(at 2016) had an overnight 'x5 area increase' in extension size.
    .

    Those are city council boundaries, which were drawn up to satisfy political rather demographic demands. The Cork Urban area was 210k in the 2016 census as defined by the CSO, which is the best representation of the actual city population we have. Confusingly the new 2018 city council area has a very similar population but the boundaries are completely different to those defined by the CSO. The old city council area you reference excludes large contiguous suburbs like Douglas, Frankfield, Grange and Rochestown, which is an absolute nonsense. The population of Cork, or what is Cork City, is always going to be hard to define because of the aforementioned council issues (not present in Dublin because the plethora of urban councils makes the city council patently ridiculous to use for population purposes or in Limerick because of the single council in the county) and the fact that there are two primary economic hubs driving the region, one being the city centre and the other being the harbour area and working out how these hubs, their suburbs and commuter towns integrate is not something anyone has really defined.

    As for the question in the OP, I'd do everything to encourage urhan living by building what may seem like absurd public transport options.

    I'd go full Singapore in Dublin. 7 or 8 metro lines covering the city along with 3 new Luas lines.

    In Cork I'd build the Ballincollig-Mahon Metro and an Airport-Douglas-Blackpool metro via the city centre and docklands.

    Limerick and Galway would get a Luas. Busconnects would be rolled out across

    Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford.

    Ring roads would need to be completed in Galway and Cork. Other than the M20 and possibly the M24 and M25 I wouldn't be too interested in further connecting our cities with motorways. I'd upgrade all intercity rail and look at a direct Limerick Cork link.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 784 ✭✭✭LaFuton


    irish space program


  • Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭MoashoaM


    Railways - High speed for all mainlines, Reinstate a few old lines, double track currently single track lines.

    Cycling - Construct bicycle corridors from scratch instead of pulling up rails, all new roads to have separated cycle lanes and dutch junctions.

    Parks - Expand the current parks initiative to create more protected land in more counties for social and ecological welfare.

    Canals - I don't know what the story is with Ireland's canals, but I envy the Dutch and English in their use of theirs. Build some new canals for a bigger network I guess.


  • Registered Users Posts: 966 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    MoashoaM wrote: »
    Railways - High speed for all mainlines, Reinstate a few old lines, double track currently single track lines.

    Cycling - Construct bicycle corridors from scratch instead of pulling up rails, all new roads to have separated cycle lanes and dutch junctions.

    Parks - Expand the current parks initiative to create more protected land in more counties for social and ecological welfare.

    Canals - I don't know what the story is with Ireland's canals, but I envy the Dutch and English in their use of theirs. Build some new canals for a bigger network I guess.

    I absolutely love the canals we have, but barring 'route updates' (a la shannon erne waterway) for the Ulster canal and Lagan Navigation etc I cant see a justification for actually building new ones, a full update and refurbishment of ALL the canals and their branches would suffice.
    Cycle and rail priorities I think you should be reversing with this much money, Construct high speed rail corridors from scratch, cycleways on all the old meandering lines that don't connect population centres efficiently


  • Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭MoashoaM


    Cycle and rail priorities I think you should be reversing with this much money, Construct high speed rail corridors from scratch, cycleways on all the old meandering lines that don't connect population centres efficiently

    agreed


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭ Rayna Slow Salami


    snotboogie wrote: »
    Those are city council boundaries, which were drawn up to satisfy political and economic rather than demographic demands, both councils want rents over people and the Celtic Tiger doughnut business park development around the city along with the Pharma in the harbour gave both councils plenty to fight over and eventually compromise on when the border was redrawn. The Cork Urban Area had a population of 210k in the 2016 census as defined by the CSO, which is the best representation of the actual city population we have.
    Even if the Cork (city) population 120k, was increased in 2016, to include the Cork 'Urban Area' up to 208k (to satisfy political and economic needs), it still remains approx 1/3rd the size of the Belfast in general and relative terms.

    e.g. (Back at 2001 census): Belfast City 280k, Belfast 'Urban Area' of 579,276 and the Belfast metropolitan area, calculated later at 2011 was 672,522.

    So in an UI type infrastructure view, Dub-Bel rail route should be the main route to upgrade. There are also 3 large large towns (of 30k each) on the route DHA/DDK/NWY within 105km, then even larger towns of Craigavon area 60k, Lisburn City 45k, before that current train route ends just past Bel, at Bangor 60k.

    Total urban catchement of 834,000 folks on that line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Even if the Cork (city) population 120k, was increased in 2016, to include the Cork 'Urban Area' up to 208k (to satisfy political and economic needs), it still remains approx 1/3rd the size of the Belfast in general and relative terms.

    e.g. (Back at 2001 census): Belfast City 280k, Belfast 'Urban Area' of 579,276 and the Belfast metropolitan area, calculated later at 2011 was 672,522.

    So in an UI type infrastructure view, Dub-Bel rail route should be the main route to upgrade. There are also 3 large large towns (of 30k each) on the route DHA/DDK/NWY within 105km, then even larger towns of Craigavon area 60k, Lisburn City 45k, before that current train route ends just past Bel, at Bangor 60k.

    Total urban catchement of 834,000 folks on that line.

    You missed the entire point of my post. The city council was not upgraded to include the urban area, the council boundary areas in the Republic are political and should not be used to measure demographics. The fact that the CSO defined Urban Area population and the City Council population are similar is mostly a coincidence, the boundaries are completely different. My point is that the best measure we have for the population of Cork City is the 210k figure from the CSO.

    Belfast is clearly bigger than Cork but you should use the right figure for comparison. The 125k figure is an utter nonsense.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes city and county boundaries are terrible ways to look at demographics for infrastructure planning. They exist for historic reasons rather then reflecting reality.

    Metropolitan population is the best way to look at these things. Basically the city and it's surrounding suburbs and commuter towns from which people commute into the city for work, education, etc.

    Cork Metro Population: 305,222 (2016)
    Belfast Metro Population: 675,522 (2011)

    Belfast is certainly larger, over twice as large, but not three times.

    Interestingly their is a theory that holds out that in most countries, the 2nd largest city has roughly half the metro population as the largest city and the 3rd city has half the 2nd city.

    That obviously doesn't play out in Dublin v Cork, but if you were to include Belfast under say a united Ireland, then it Dublin - Belfast - Cork populations almost perfectly match this theory.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    snotboogie wrote: »
    You missed the entire point of my post. The city council was not upgraded to include the urban area, the council boundary areas in the Republic are political and should not be used to measure demographics. The fact that the CSO defined Urban Area population and the City Council population are similar is mostly a coincidence, the boundaries are completely different. My point is that the best measure we have for the population of Cork City is the 210k figure from the CSO.

    Belfast is clearly bigger than Cork but you should use the right figure for comparison. The 125k figure is an utter nonsense.

    You're making the same point I was making a few pages back: Cork has approx 200k people. It's just a numbers thing, but I don't think it affects their overall point tbf


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