Dream time. If you had €200 billion what would you spend it on?

bk

Even if hyperloop can be gotten to work (a big IF), it still isn't suitable for an island as small as Ireland.

Hyperloop requires distances of about 400 to 500km between stops to make it feasible due to the high speeds and stopping distances. Cork to Dublin is just 220km (straight line), far too short for hyperloop. Maybe Cork to Belfast (direct, no stop at Dublin), but lets be honest, there is little or no demand for that journey.

And I honestly don't get why people seem to be so obsessed with hyperloop or very high speed trains between our cities. Our cities are relatively small and the distances between them relatively short and there really isn't much demand for high speed rail between them. And I say all that as a Corkonian living in Dublin who would greatly benefit from it.

Sure if we had 200bn we would make improvements to intercity rail. Get Cork to Dublin down to max 2h's consistently, maybe even 1:30h's and similar benefits for other routes. But there is certainly no demand or need for 30mins.

But all of this ignores where the real need it in our cities. It is mass transit to get into (from close commuter towns) and around our cities. Metros, DARTs, commuter rail, etc. These are what we need, not fantasy hyperloop intercity lines.

Harry Palmr

Hyperloop is the new monorail!

Here's that scheme I mentioned before, Spirit of Ireland project (remember this)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Ireland

It was intended as a power export scheme but no reason why it could be done for domestic consumption in this fantasy scenario

blanch152

bk wrote: »

But all of this ignores where the real need it in our cities. It is mass transit to get into (from close commuter towns) and around our cities. Metros, DARTs, commuter rail, etc. These are what we need, not fantasy hyperloop intercity lines.

200bn, and you would have metro in Cork and Limerick as well as many lines in Dublin.

With the spare change you could build the M20 and the Galway bypass as the last two major road upgrades needed.

4068ac1elhodqr

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Open air tests? I think we already have a name for that owe yeah a train.

Well above ground (in vacum tube) on stilts, rather than below for that test, as the plans are to connect Vegas, or SF-LA using an underground only bored hyperloop. This test was only a very early proof of concept on 1.2km track that saw a 457kmph speed (not bad for starters).

Next test is due for Expo 2020 in Dubai, on 10km curved track.

bk wrote: »

Even if hyperloop can be gotten to work (a big IF), it still isn't suitable for an island as small as Ireland.
Hyperloop requires distances of about 400 to 500km between stops to make it feasible due to the high speeds and stopping distances.
Cork to Dublin is just 220km (straight line), far too short for hyperloop.

Incorrect.

And you'd better tell India who are currently building theirs, for two ciities at 134km apart. Also better call Dubai (to Abu Dhabi of just 120km) which will ferry passengers along the Arabian coast (12min journey, instead of current 1hr & 20mins)
If folks are at ease with the 0.5G de/accceleration, it could be enhanced, there is also the option to re-pressurise parts of the vacum, to introduce air friction if desired at end points. When used for cargo only, it can simply run at max.

Hyperloop would kill several birds at once (not literally, as there is no risk of a pigeon in the intake jet, unlike slower air travel).
House prices would lower and equalise, productivity would see a boost, congestion reduce, emissions reduce, tourism/leisure would also reap the rewards with an airport hub.

Lord Fairlord

bk wrote: »

I live less then 3km from O'Connell St and I'm surrounded by detached two storey houses and even empty fields and brown sites sitting their undeveloped.

We don't need to reclaim the sea, we just need to get over our fear of apartments and NIMBY's against building high. Dublin has loads of easy to develop land and could easily become far denser.

Having said that, moving Dublin port out of Dublin and further up the coast would free up a massive amount of city center land for high density development. A move many European cities have very successfully done already.

I live even closer to O'Connell Street; the low rise of the inner city is ridiculous I acknowledge. However I'm a strong believer in the right to acquire and keep private property and so would not support vast swades of private housing being knocked down for more density.

Moving Dublin port is an interesting idea; we should certainly make more of being on the coast. London did move their port downstream, however they ended up bringing a port back in to London as that's where people wanted to get their goods - possibly a different situation to us admittedly as London is in land a bit.

Lord Fairlord

bk wrote: »

I live less then 3km from O'Connell St and I'm surrounded by detached two storey houses and even empty fields and brown sites sitting their undeveloped.

We don't need to reclaim the sea, we just need to get over our fear of apartments and NIMBY's against building high. Dublin has loads of easy to develop land and could easily become far denser.

Having said that, moving Dublin port out of Dublin and further up the coast would free up a massive amount of city center land for high density development. A move many European cities have very successfully done already.

A correction to my reply; you weren't suggesting knocking down houses - my apologies. I agree with the better use of existing land.

ncounties

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

I live even closer to O'Connell Street; the low rise of the inner city is ridiculous I acknowledge. However I'm a strong believer in the right to acquire and keep private property and so would not support vast swades of private housing being knocked down for more density.

Moving Dublin port is an interesting idea; we should certainly make more of being on the coast. London did move their port downstream, however they ended up bringing a port back in to London as that's where people wanted to get their goods - possibly a different situation to us admittedly as London is in land a bit.

Where would we move it though that wouldn't be up in arms? Ignoring NIMBYs - Rush?

Lord Fairlord

ncounties wrote: »

Where would we move it though that wouldn't be up in arms? Ignoring NIMBYs - Rush?

The Rush area would make sense; we'd use the Port Tunnel but in reverse, with those trucks that need to deliver into the city from the port using it. I'd envisage environmentalists up in arms with any new port as well as NIMBYs though unfortunately. People need to come before wildlife IMO.

Thelonious Monk

I'd buy up a load of land in Ireland and plant native forest there, rewilding etc.
As well as most of the other things folk are suggesting here.

D.L.R.

Extensive Metro system for Dublin, at least 4-5 lines

Quad track Northern line & Kildare line, electrify entire network

Metro system for Cork, 2-3 lines

Fund Metro system in Belfast

Trams for Galway, Limerick & Waterford

City status for Drogheda, Dundalk and other large towns backed by major investment fund

High Speed Rail Belfast-Dublin-Cork

Irish sea rail tunnel Dublin Docks-Anglesey

Convert all Irish railways to standard/dual gauge

Dublin eastern bypass

Dublin east west road tunnel

Dublin outer orbital M

Cork M ring

Galway bypass

Cork-Limerick-Waterford road connections

ncounties

Thought of another one. A 50% contribution to a Dublin to Holyhead High Speed Rail Tunnel, along with a smaller percentage contribution to getting the Holyhead line upgraded to Crewe, to join HS2.

afatbollix

Sure Borris is going to build that bridge to Scotland first.

magicbastarder

there are 63,000 people on the electorate in the dublin rathdown constituency.
you'd be able to pay them all €1m each not to vote for shane ross and use up less than one third of the budget available. i would consider that value for money.

Kingkong

Key Objectives for me would be to cater for population growth to 15M and better distribute it across the country by creating 3 separate hubs (Dublin, Cork, Galway)

Each Hub connects to the other 2 via TGV style rail allowing less than 90 mins commute. The surrounding counties feed the workforce linked by decent road transport with possible dedicated bus roads power by electric buses. This would allow a person living within 50KM to get to work in 1 hour and those living within 5KM get to work 25 mins.

Each Hub has the following

A) A health campus District where all hospital (public and private) services are located connected by light rail to the hub center, this will go a long way to kill the siloed nature of the health services. This would be a multi-year project rebuilding and moving hospitals, existing sites would be repurposed and sold on freeing up valuable land space for economic activities
A Civil Service Campus where all National Government department's offices are based connected by light rail to the hub center, existing sites would be repurposed and sold on freeing up valuable land space for economic activities
C) An Office / Apartment Complex designed with IDA with an incentive to relocate certain key industries into these new campuses. For example (Cork would have pharma, Bio-Tech, ECommerce), (Galway would have (Energy, Agriculture, etc...)

Every 5 years or general election Dail/Seanad relocate to one of the hubs spreading out national politics and taking pressure from Dublin to cater for all things.

4068ac1elhodqr

Kingkong wrote: »

Key Objectives for me would be to cater for population growth to 15M and better distribute it across the country by creating 3 separate hubs (Dublin, Cork, Galway)
Each Hub connects to the other 2 via TGV style rail allowing less than 90 mins commute.

15m, would take decades even after UI, and with that you've just excluded a city with the combined population of {Cork, Lim, Gal} combined (Belfast 1/3m).

Any new large train stlye hub would likely have to be centred just NW/West of Dub to avoid further congestion and parking issues. East coast should be priority to reflect population density (Bel-Cork), Galway at a later stage.

Unless of course, opting for the smaller footprint (of Hyperloop), and with that Dub-Gal in 17mins, which is about x5 better than dated TGV anyway. With a <20yr planning window, proof of concept will have become widespread before full stock roll-out.

PeteEd

Enniskillen to Letterkenny rail link
Dublin to Holyhead road bridge
Belcoo post Brexit anti smuggling border wall
FAI buy out off Aviva Stadium shares
And a new shed for A3 paper when the above 4 are completed on time and within budget

Lord Fairlord

ncounties wrote: »

Thought of another one. A 50% contribution to a Dublin to Holyhead High Speed Rail Tunnel, along with a smaller percentage contribution to getting the Holyhead line upgraded to Crewe, to join HS2.

I'd love such a tunnel but I think that I remember reading that it'd be so long that it may require at least one point where fresh air can enter the tunnel, other than the two entrances/exits.

hans aus dtschl

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

15m, would take decades even after UI, and with that you've just excluded a city with the combined population of {Cork, Lim, Gal} combined (Belfast 1/3m).

I have no opinion on your post but think your numbers may perhaps be incorrect.

According to Google...
Belfast's population is ~312,000.
Cork City is ~210,000, Limerick City 94,000, Galway ~80,000.

So Cork/Limerick combined perhaps? But then the Cork route is also the Limerick route for the majority of the corridor.

4068ac1elhodqr

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I have no opinion on your post but think your numbers may perhaps be incorrect.
According to Google...
Belfast's population is ~312,000.
Cork City is ~210,000, Limerick City 94,000, Galway ~80,000.
So Cork/Limerick combined perhaps? But then the Cork route is also the Limerick route for the majority of the corridor.

The Cork figure is <2018, in 2019 it had a massive boundry extension which included many rural areas and commuter towns/districts, likely not 'city' zones as such.

Doing the same to Belfast would result in an easy 1/2million+.
Via the addition of (very) nearby Lisburn City (45,000 or 120,00{for district}), N'Abbey (85,000) and maybe even Bangor town (60,000).

gjim

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

Or more answers, than questions:

➤ Low or no-maintence (no moving parts, or engineering needed in a vacum)
➤ Yes, pods are small, build area smaller, and cost (eventually) smaller.
➤ Extreme speed = high frequency = large mass of capacity.
➤ Vacums don't really have accidents, controlled automated environments, no issues with leaves on tracks, access or jumpers onto a sealed tube.
➤ Movement is by magnetic fields (in vacum) thus near instant stop/start in any emergency, loaded with sensors so fully automated movement, no drivers needed (no strikes).

No engineering needed in a vacuum? The current largest vacuum chamber in the world is about 40m tall and 30m in diameter and was literally built and is operated by rocket scientists (NASA). And you're talking about maintaining hundreds of km of tube at vacuum as if this was easy? There would be 10,000kg of force on every square meter of the walls of the "tube" - no engineering?

Now we know that a humans bodily fluids will start boiling pretty quickly if exposed to a vacuum so you'll need plenty of engineering also to protect the passengers while shooting along through the vacuum - much more engineering than required for a passenger jet airplane where depressurization will only cause breathing difficulties - and not cause the fluid in your eyeballs to turn to steam.

Hyperloop bascially brings all the cost and complexity of space travel to the problem of transporting people across land. And that (the space angle) is pretty much the only reason Musk is interested in it.

It's nuts and will never work. And if you want to to bet on this, I'm willing to put any amount you want into one of the online escrow accounts.

4068ac1elhodqr

gjim wrote: »

It's nuts and will never work. And if you want to to bet on this, I'm willing to put any amount you want into one of the online escrow accounts.

What a very strange request, randomer escrow unregulated betting for an in-progress, developing technology with an estimated commercial rollout for 2030 is it now? Rollofeyes.

Anyways... The 1,640-foot-long tube at the Virgin Hyperloop One test site 2017 has already been used for hundreds of runs, including pod at 240mph



Plenty of other companies throwing millions/billions at the technology apart from HL1, e.g. Transpod(Can), HTT(US) and Hardt (EU) each developing their own test tracks. https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/how-long-hyperloop/index.html?gallery=1

India (75mile track) & Saudis have already green lighted the procurement process. Sure, it's likely the 1st passengers won't be until very late 2020's after their planned 2023-25 certifications (not a overnight process).
This will be the biggest change to transport in a century, so won't be a sprint event, more of a gradual marathon over the next decade.

LeinsterDub

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

What a very strange request, randomer escrow unregulated betting for an in-progress, developing technology with an estimated commercial rollout for 2030 is it now? Rollofeyes.

Anyways... The 1,640-foot-long tube at the Virgin Hyperloop One test site 2017 has already been used for hundreds of runs, including pod at 240mph



Plenty of other companies throwing millions/billions at the technology apart from HL1, e.g. Transpod(Can), HTT(US) and Hardt (EU) each developing their own test tracks. https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/how-long-hyperloop/index.html?gallery=1

India (75mile track) & Saudis have already green lighted the procurement process. Sure, it's likely the 1st passengers won't be until very late 2020's after their planned 2023-25 certifications (not a overnight process).
This will be the biggest change to transport in a century, so won't be a sprint event, more of a gradual marathon over the next decade.

It's absolutely nonsense.

ncounties

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

What a very strange request, randomer escrow unregulated betting for an in-progress, developing technology with an estimated commercial rollout for 2030 is it now? Rollofeyes.

Anyways... The 1,640-foot-long tube at the Virgin Hyperloop One test site 2017 has already been used for hundreds of runs, including pod at 240mph



Plenty of other companies throwing millions/billions at the technology apart from HL1, e.g. Transpod(Can), HTT(US) and Hardt (EU) each developing their own test tracks. https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/how-long-hyperloop/index.html?gallery=1

India (75mile track) & Saudis have already green lighted the procurement process. Sure, it's likely the 1st passengers won't be until very late 2020's after their planned 2023-25 certifications (not a overnight process).
This will be the biggest change to transport in a century, so won't be a sprint event, more of a gradual marathon over the next decade.

Would it not be easier, and cheaper, to have a big canon installed in every town and city in Ireland, that is highly calibrated, and can fire a capsule full of people towards their destination, and then on approach, a big parachute deploys, and they all land safely? The capsule could then be reloaded with people and fired back.

hans aus dtschl

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

The Cork figure is <2018, in 2019 it had a massive boundry extension which included many rural areas and commuter towns/districts, likely not 'city' zones as such.

Doing the same to Belfast would result in an easy 1/2million+.
Via the addition of (very) nearby Lisburn City (45,000 or 120,00{for district}), N'Abbey (85,000) and maybe even Bangor town (60,000).

I appreciate that you may not know the Cork area well but the Cork boundary extension wasn't an inclusion of distant urban areas, though I appreciate that it can potentially look like that.
The boundary change certainly did include rural areas. But these naturally did not increase the population by any significant amount. Areas which were already de facto part of the city were included, but many areas which were not part of the city (but are part of the "mertropolitan" area) were left out.

Your Lisburn, Bangor, N'Abbey (maybe Newtownards?) would perhaps be the equivalent to Cobh, Carrigaline, Carrigtohill, Midleton, Little Island, Passage etc. Urban areas within 10k of the city itself and not truly part of the city.

If you mean the "Metro Population", then absolutely the Belfast metropolitan population would probably be the equivalent of Cork Limerick Galway and probably even more! But then we come back to rail catchment areas which is a whole different ballgame altogether.

4068ac1elhodqr

ncounties wrote: »

Would it not be easier, and cheaper, to have a big canon installed in every town and city in Ireland, and can fire a capsule full of people towards their destination, and then on approach, a big parachute deploys, and they all land safely? The capsule could then be reloaded with people and fired back.

By all means do suggest this idea of yours to India (but take a return ticket), they will likely be the 1st to complete large scale commercial (75miles) of the aul Hyperloop.

It would also be great 'circus entertainment' for Expo 2020 Dubaii.

However a panel instead already decided their shorter distance Hyperloop will dash visitors between Dubai International Airport and Al Maktoum International Airport in a handy 6 minutes (ordinarily takes between 45-60 minutes, pending traffic conditions).

4068ac1elhodqr

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I appreciate that you may not know the Cork area well but the Cork boundary extension wasn't an inclusion of distant urban areas, though I appreciate that it can potentially look like that.
The boundary change certainly did include rural areas. But these naturally did not increase the population by any significant amount. Areas which were already de facto part of the city were included, but many areas which were not part of the city (but are part of the "mertropolitan" area) were left out.

Your Lisburn, Bangor, N'Abbey (maybe Newtownards?) would perhaps be the equivalent to Cobh, Carrigaline, Carrigtohill, Midleton, Little Island, Passage etc. Urban areas within 10k of the city itself and not truly part of the city.

If you mean the "Metro Population", then absolutely the Belfast metropolitan population would probably be the equivalent of Cork Limerick Galway and probably even more! But then we come back to rail catchment areas which is a whole different ballgame altogether.

The Cork 124,391(at 2016) had an overnight 'x5 area increase' in extension size.

I appreciate you may have never been to Belfast, but N'Abbey (very high density area, with tower blocks just North of city), really isn't the same place, nor direction as more distant, smaller N'Ards town.

Perhaps the view from space will better highlight to you the actual population density of the Island. As you can see likely '1/2m' catchement areas would be Belfast (Greater), Dublin (Central only) or the whole of Gal-Lim-Cork and perhaps Waterford also.



Any future transport (across decades) should consider whole Island urban catchements (New Alba 5.5m might even get their bridge by then to Larne). A single HSRail/HL line Dub to Limerick might suit best in this case (with connections therefrom to both Gal&Cork).

As you can see Cork (urban area) resembles somewhere smaller in the North, such as the Craigavon urban area (which includes closely located Lurgan, Portadown and Central Craigavon). Cork barely even registers on a sat view of Europe.

Harry Palmr

I'd be careful making direct comparisons using light - the way and extent of street lighting goes along way to producing those images. If you look at Belgium it appears to be one big city, but they light all the M and DC roads like Christmas trees so it distorts reality.

hans aus dtschl

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

The Cork 124,391(at 2016) had an overnight 'x5 area increase' in extension size.

I appreciate you may have never been to Belfast, but N'Abbey (very high density area, with tower blocks just North of city), really isn't the same place, nor direction as more distant, smaller N'Ards town.

Perhaps the view from space will better highlight to you the actual population density of the Island. As you can see likely '1/2m' catchement areas would be Belfast (Greater), Dublin (Central only) or the whole of Gal-Lim-Cork and perhaps Waterford also.



Any future transport (across decades) should consider whole Island urban catchements (New Alba 5.5m might even get their bridge by then to Larne). A single HSRail/HL line Dub to Limerick might suit best in this case (with connections therefrom to both Gal&Cork).

As you can see Cork (urban area) resembles somewhere smaller in the North, such as the Craigavon urban area (which includes closely located Lurgan, Portadown and Central Craigavon). Cork barely even registers on a sat view of Europe.

I presumed you meant Newtownards because you mentioned other towns 10km from Belfast!
Yes I'm all for prioritising our 200 billion euro spend in a hypothetical "Belfast, Republic of Ireland" metropolitan area, but forgive me if I feel you've made a handful of extra leaps here slightly beyond the reunification question.

hans aus dtschl

I'd agree that Belfast would easily be the second city in the country if there was reunification today. My point was to say that its stated population is not three times the stated population of Galway/Limerick/Cork, as per the post. And going by Google maps, there is no reunification today.

And I'll agree that Belfast's metropolitan region is bigger than the Metropolitan regions of Munster and Connacht together. But rail catchment then becomes the topic. People in Mallow, Charleville, Portlaoise, etc aren't factoring in our counts deliberately.

What would happen with populations in 15 years is another open-ended question.
Distances involved are a factor.
Competing infrastructure is a factor.
Feasibility and cost-benefit studies galore, blah blah blah.

As I say, I just think we've made a few extra leaps here slightly beyond the reunification question.

4068ac1elhodqr

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I'd be careful making direct comparisons using light - the way and extent of street lighting goes along way to producing those images. If you look at Belgium it appears to be one big city, but they light all the M and DC roads like Christmas trees so it distorts reality.

The reality is the Netherlands has a higher population density than packed England, and that specifc NW EU (aka blue bannana) area including Belgium into N.Germany (Cologne/Dusseldorf/Essen/Bonn) with an Arc to Mian, but excluding much of France or Poland is the guts 110m people, and the powerhouse of Europe.

The point is that major infrastructure is best suited to between areas of large, and 'dense urban' population centres, rather than wider catchments (requiring supplimentary final journey transport)



Wonder if Limerick might even be better as a central hub given it's position in regards to whole S&W areas (mid way of Gal-Cork) and closer via straight-line upgradabilty to Dublin.

Markcheese

ncounties wrote: »

Would it not be easier, and cheaper, to have a big canon installed in every town and city in Ireland, and can fire a capsule full of people towards their destination, and then on approach, a big parachute deploys, and they all land safely? The capsule could then be reloaded with people and fired back.

Probably safer too,

ToxicPaddy

Clear the national debt, then we wouldn't be spending 5 billion a year servicing it and put that money into infrastructure projects. You would be able to pretty much cherry pick projects around the country and in 10 years have pretty much all done.

[url] https://www.statista.com/statistics/270408/national-debt-of-ireland/[/url]

hans aus dtschl

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

Wonder if Limerick might even be better as a central hub given it's position in regards to whole S&W areas (mid way of Gal-Cork) and closer via straight-line upgradabilty to Dublin.

Yep a lot of people in the Limerick area put this view forward.
Having lived there myself (and I like Limerick) I just think it needs a lot of government investment before it can scale up properly.
I think Cork is too small, and needs significant government investment too btw, just that it's a little bigger than Limerick.

For me, joining the two, creating density on the corridor and also adding Galway would be the only viable option within the current republic. Within an unified country, the Belfast area becomes the priority I'd say.

None of the above will happen in my lifetime.

bk

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I think Cork is too small, and needs significant government investment too btw, just that it's a little bigger than Limerick.

Cork is much larger then Limerick. Corks Metro population is twice as large as Limerick and Corks growth rate is much larger. Actually Limericks growth rate is very poor, just 1.8%, Cork is 4.5%

Having said that building the M20 would go some way to help creating a Galway - Limerick - Cork corridor to help balance out the GDA.

kilns

what i find a complete disgrace and lack of planning is that houses are built and built and the infrastructure is an after thought.

Take Portmarnock as an example, what was once a quiet seaside village has exploded with new building and yet the roads remain the same (some narrow country roads). How can planning permission be granted for these type of projects without considering the impact it will have.

Its probably too late now but too much is centralised in Dublin. Look at Switzerland as an example, has nearly double the population yet a smaller land mass and in that mountains. Yet no city comes close to the size of Dublin there are about 8 cities in the country with big populations which are all perfectly connected etc. Switzerland should be the model country for Ireland to be looking at

SeanW

The hyperloop will never work. No amount of money will make the stupid thing anything other than a joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNFesa01llk

Suffice it to say I doubt that there's going to be widespread hyperloop travel any time soon. So even though the premise is a fantasy, ideas for how to spend a mythical €200bn would have to be limited to something that would be in any way realistic.

This would be my list.

• I would start with the full DART expansion plan but with some major exceptions - the DART underground would be widened to 4 tracks with the outer two being Intercity. This way, continuous services Cork-Dublin-Belfast and regional combinations like Dundalk-Portlaoise/Athlone etc could be put in place with Intercity stations being built underneath Heuston and Pearse, along with the inner tracks and DART stations/platforms.
  Obviously, that would require replacing the 201 class locomotives with dual mode (diesel plus 1500VDC electric) and new or retrofitted generator vans for the Enterprise and Dublin/Cork trainsets that could also shut down the diesel generators.
• Continue working to straighten and thusly speed up the current lines between Cork/Dublin and Dublin/Dundalk/Belfast, in staged upgrade works. New build sections of line where large scale speed upgrades are not possible. Aim for 125MPH running from Cork to Dublin and from Dublin to at least the Northern border.
• Long term, electrify Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast. Possibly with a changeover to 25kV/AC South of Kildare and North of Drogheda.
• After that it would be a proper Metro system for Dublin, starting with a full, grade separated, high platform, 4-8 car system running from Swords to Bray. Full schedule all the way. Feasibility studies to be started into other Metro line proposals that may be helpful. Additional Luas lines with the old plans in A Platform For Change of 2000.
• Feasibility study into a new railway line from Dublin via the Airport to Derry. Following the same rules as other railways from Dublin, the line would provide commuter services locally, and be regional/intercity on the line beyond.
• New railway tunnel between Greystones and Bray, twin track electrified.
• New railway tunnel between Bray and Dublin City Centre, allowing Wexford/Wicklow services to avoid crawling along the current line which is slow, indirect, crawling with DARTs and cannot be expanded.
  With these, Greystones DART and long distance services would share a new tunnel under Bray head, continue sharing Bray train station, but then North of Bray separate into fast and slow lines to continue into the city.
• Either continue the Bray-CC tunnel out to Maynooth or find a way to quad track the Maynooth line so that Sligo/Longford trains do not have to wait behind Maynooth locals.
• The M20 between Cork and Limerick. Yesterday.
• Full implementation of the CMATS plan, electrify the Cork Suburban railway network between Mallow and Cobh/Middleton and build a Cork Luas. Build the ring roads and the inner distributors called for in that plan.
• Extend motorways from Cork in all directions. On the N25 upgrade or build new road at least as far as Youghal, bypassing it. Motorway along the N71 and N22.
• Upgrade the sections of N2, N3, N4 and N7 in the Dublin area to motorway, allowing travel on motorways unbroken from any approach road via the M50 to any other long distance route. Construct any alternative routes required.
• Change the 2+2 standard to require concrete barriers instead of cheese-grater wire in place now, use this on all future 2+2s and retrofit all the existing ones.
• Upgrade/new build motorway from the N4 junction 13 to beyond Longford, with a 2+2 upgrade of the N5 in its entirety and the N4 from the N5 split to Sligo. Alternatively, continue the M4 to a new terminus South of Carrick-On-Shannon (perhaps to the junction of the N61 and R370) and construct new 2+2s from that point for the N4 and N5 to Boyle and Frenchpark respectively.
• Immediately bypass any town or village on a national primary road.
• Increase allocations for upgrades on the national secondary roads, many of which are still 16th century goat tracks. Focus improving curvature and sight lines, adding hard shoulders, and bypassing towns en-route.
• Work on a cycling strategy, creating cycle lanes as needed on streets that have been bypassed and where there is no great need for vehicular traffic.
• Use any money leftover to build social housing for working people in Dublin and other major cities as needed.

CrabRevolution

kilns wrote: »

what i find a complete disgrace and lack of planning is that houses are built and built and the infrastructure is an after thought.

Take Portmarnock as an example, what was once a quiet seaside village has exploded with new building and yet the roads remain the same (some narrow country roads). How can planning permission be granted for these type of projects without considering the impact it will have.

Its probably too late now but too much is centralised in Dublin. Look at Switzerland as an example, has nearly double the population yet a smaller land mass and in that mountains. Yet no city comes close to the size of Dublin there are about 8 cities in the country with big populations which are all perfectly connected etc. Switzerland should be the model country for Ireland to be looking at

In fairness, Switzerland is a country with a historical policy of centralising nothing. Each canton has its own different laws and even languages. Most countries our size have one pretty large city compared to the rest.

Serbia, Greece, Denmark,Finland, Norway, Czechia, Austria etc. all have major cities far larger than the next few cities in their country combined.Even France and the UK are in the same situation.

Countries like Spain and Germany are more spread out, but like Switzerland that's due to a long history of strong subdivisions with nation-like identities. Ireland has never had this.

4068ac1elhodqr

In terms of standard HS Rail, news today, shows that the uk's HS2 costs are out of control: £108bn (from 55bn in 2015) with added delays, and it won't even reach Man/Leeds until 2040. The large footprint will also destroy hundreds of wildlife sites. The carbon emissions required to build it, will offset any carbon emission benefits for decades.

Faster than HS2, Maglev is perhaps a half-way house to (airtravel beating) H'Loop speeds.
The current world's fastest Maglev at 430kmph/267mph in Shangai, does appear to have a much smaller footprint (closer to monorail) than standard rail has and all that goes with it.
Japan will likely have the fastest Maglev at 603hmph (similar to China's propsed CRRC Maglev)

Next year China will introduce slow variants of Maglev v3.0, that won't require drivers (ai-autopilot), saving a few shillings.

ncounties

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

In terms of standard HS Rail, news today, shows that the uk's HS2 costs are out of control: £108bn (from 55bn in 2015) with added delays, and it won't even reach Man/Leeds until 2040. The large footprint will also destroy hundreds of wildlife sites. The carbon emissions required to build it, will offset any carbon emission benefits for decades.

Faster than HS2, Maglev is perhaps a half-way house to (airtravel beating) H'Loop speeds.
The current world's fastest Maglev at 430kmph/267mph in Shangai, does appear to have a much smaller footprint (closer to monorail) than standard rail has and all that goes with it.
Japan will likely have the fastest Maglev at 603hmph (similar to China's propsed CRRC Maglev)

Next year China will introduce slow variants of Maglev v3.0, that won't require drivers (ai-autopilot), saving a few shillings.

I'll have what he's having.

4068ac1elhodqr

ncounties wrote: »

I'll have what he's having.

You want/support something like the uk's (conventional HS2), now at £108bn, years/decades of delays, destruction of wildlife sites, no real carbon-offset, and a distant completion date of 2040? ok...

CatInABox

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

You want/support something like the uk's (conventional HS2), now at £108bn, years/decades of delays, destruction of wildlife sites, no real carbon-offset, and a distant completion date of 2040? ok...

If you're actually worried about the cost and the environmental impact of HS2, wait until you see the environmental impact of the hundreds of roads projects that will take its place instead.

4068ac1elhodqr

CatInABox wrote: »

If you're actually worried about the cost and the environmental impact of HS2, wait until you see the environmental impact of the hundreds of roads projects that will take its place instead.

The much needed 'upgrading and improvement' of their (existing) potholed roads and dysfunctional rail, would have close to zero enviromental impact and could be completed within 5yrs instead decades of £bn's overspend on HS2.

Back in 2013 (before cost escalation) DfT & NR own studies (by Atkins) showed between 43-300% better value for money on upgrade programmes than new spending on HSRail.

With over-crowding, delays and and above yearly over-inflation prices rises, often with ticket prices higher than actual air travel (Ldn-Lds) addressing current issues should be the 1st port of call.

Then if some business people want to get to their Northern cities (quicker than actual air travel), then plan for next gen Maglev/Loop (with smaller enviromental impacts) which will do exactly that, for which they'll happily pay for in return for time-savings.

CatInABox

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

The much needed 'upgrading and improvement' of their (existing) potholed roads and dysfunctional rail, would have close to zero enviromental impact and could be completed within 5yrs instead decades of £bn's overspend on HS2.

The entire HS2 project is 140 miles and will impact on 29 hectares.
The A21 widening was 2.5 miles and removed 9 hectares.

Second, if you build roads, you get more cars. Induced demand isn't a theory, it's a proven fact. The environmental impact of these increased vehicle miles is far more significant than that of HS2.

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

Then if some business people want to get to their Northern cities (quicker than actual air travel), then plan for next gen Maglev/Loop (with smaller enviromental impacts) which will do exactly that, for which they'll happily pay for in return for time-savings.

So you're against HS2 for environmental and cost reasons, but then advocate waiting for an even more expensive technology that will have at least the same environmental impact?

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.


Just FYI, HS2 isn't just for getting from London to the cities faster, it includes a massive increase in commuter capacity for all these other cities too.

Literally all of the other options are terrible as well. Add more lines to the existing tracks? There's thousands upon thousands of houses right up against the tracks, plus the existing lines would be severely disrupted during the lengthy construction works. I mean, they only just finished one major upgrade project of the lines in 2005, at a cost of £10 billion, and it's already at capacity.

Idbatterim

Ill say this, that any government, during boom periods, should sanction as much infrastructure spending as they can, at least when shovels are in the ground, they cant be cancelled. Otherwise they are mothballed during the recession, costing jobs and just sent up in smoke on maintaining welfare payments etc...

4068ac1elhodqr

CatInABox wrote: »

The entire HS2 project is 140 miles and will impact on 29 hectares.

You only refer to London-Birmingham which isn't the 'entire' project. With Phase2 of HS2 it equates to total of 330 miles. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

This project includes tearing (new) routes through many dozens ancient woodlands and green field sites, that road widening, upgrades and repairs wouldn't do to the same effect.

Even reducing the current 4% figure for NRail journey cancelations would help, nevermind the 4.3% figure for 15min(+) delays.

CatInABox wrote: »

So you're against HS2 for environmental and cost reasons, but then advocate waiting for an even more expensive technology that will have at least the same environmental impact?

Maglev as a 2nd (faster) choice, but ideally a wait for HLoop which has a smaller footprint (single 5m wide sealed tube on stilts) could still beat HS2's 2040 completion date if less groundworks are required.

Dubai will have the the first phase of their HL project, (10-kilometre track in Abu Dhabi) in place next year. But India is set to complete their 100miles of Hyperloop by 2029 (certification by 2023) that would provide better insight.

CatInABox wrote: »

Just FYI, HS2 isn't just for getting from London to the cities faster, it includes a massive increase in commuter capacity for all these other cities too.

Speed is also directly relative to capacity.

Already (2018) HS2 admitted it would have to reduce top speeds by 50kmph to save costs, and also reduce from 18 to 14 trains per hour, as they spent far too many pennies already, whoops!

ncounties

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

Maglev as a 2nd (faster) choice, but ideally a wait for HLoop which has a smaller footprint (single 5m wide sealed tube on stilts) could still beat HS2's 2040 completion date if less groundworks are required.

Dubai will have the the first phase of their HL project, (10-kilometre track in Abu Dhabi) in place next year. But India is set to complete their 100miles of Hyperloop by 2029 (certification by 2023) that would provide better insight.

The idea of building a Hyperloop or Maglev in Ireland (when we can barely build a Metro), let alone in the UK or the Continent, is lunacy. Teleportation has a higher chance of being implemented. Stop embarressing yourself.

4068ac1elhodqr

ncounties wrote: »

The idea of building a Hyperloop or Maglev in Ireland (when we can barely build a Metro), let alone in the UK or the Continent, is lunacy.

Which will might shortly rank India as more advanced and capable than any country in Europe for high speed transport.

Granted Europe now lags behind China, but there have been some (more demonstrative) low-speed maglev lines in Europe, e.g. the Air rail in Birmingham (1984( and the M-Bahn in Berlin. Europe has long considered them, perhaps slowed down by Transrapid's crash in 2006. But there has been some renewed interest in Italy.

Italy (like France/Spain) also is considering HTT (Hloop) 'feasibility studies' for two 150km sections.

Like electric cars, a decade ago folks would scratch their heads, today they browse the latest Nissan Leaf brochure.

Looking backwards (at generic conventional HSRail), you can already see a country with x10 the population and density of Ireland can't do it right, on time, nor on budget.

SeanW

I forgot about, and was going to add to my list:

DART to Navan (via Clonsilla)

But I don't seem to be able to edit my posts right now? Anyways, how does the UKs HS2 plan and hyperloops relate to Ireland? Perhaps we should have an HS2 thread?

Enough of the latest nuclear reactors to cover 100% of our baseload energy needs for the foreseeable future. Shut down all the coal turf and gas plants. Use renewables when possible.

Finish the Cork to Limerick motorway with a branch off at Fermoy from the M8 and connect to Galway one. Continue it up to Donegal.
Connect Dundalk to this motorway with another one.
Build another motorway from Cork to Waterford.
Build a new hospital in Cork and a few more at strategic locations outside but near major population centres with lots of bed space, good public transport links and parking.
Have the inter city trains run at 160kmh speeds.
Connect Cork / Belfast via train and add a metro to Dublin to the airport with one big ass tunnel.
Make the Cork bus service reliable. A LUAS for Cork (CLUAS ? ) is unnecessary and a gigantic waste of money.

How much money have I left?

Beta Ray Bill

Big Huge Massive tunnel under the seabed to France.

€200 Billion might not even be enough.

Channel Tunnel is about 40km's and cost around €20Billion in todays money

Tunnel from Cork to Roscoff would be around 450km... I think we'd be short a few bob.


Reasoning: Borris will build the bridge from the UK to NI, this will cement and reaffirm that NI is British and not Irish.
An NI Bridge and a hard border would be absolutely devastating to the economy of the south.