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Jessica Yaniv refused service at gynaecologist's office

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    #572
    Ironicname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭Ironicname


    Brian? wrote:
    It’s many things. But it’s a fact that a trans woman is legally a woman.

    Legally a woman, but not a woman.

    So are they a woman?


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    #573
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    you're both arguing semantics. You're both correct. sortof.


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    #574
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    It’s not nonsense. It’s legally correct. Why does this fact bother you so much?

    It is a fact.

    It's not a fact at all. It may be the determination of an act of law that someone should be permitted to a birth certificate stating they are of a particular gender and so on.

    It doesn't mean a man is somehow a woman, truly, physically, wholly, in body and mind. Someone may wish to be less of one thing and more of another, but they'll never become that whole other. That's the fact.


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    #575
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    Brian? wrote: »


    It’s many things. But it’s a fact that a trans woman is legally a woman.

    Incorrect, again. You, and the rest of the pronoun brigade would like it to be so, but the rest of us are resisting.


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    #576
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    TBPH, I'm kinda used to it. The vast majority of legal changes happen without the permission of the general public. Unless you're hooked into the system in some way, most changes happen without anyone noticing. That's not any sense of approval Btw.

    Fact is, I'm not discussing the legal aspect because I'm not living in Ireland right now, and I don't expect to be back any time soon. It doesn't affect me. However, the social aspects do possibility affect my family members especially the children who may be exposed to propaganda within schools to promote "gender change". We're already seeing such happening in parts of the US, and I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar happen in Ireland under a more limited campaign.

    But I'm not going to get involved in the discussions about the legal aspects here. Not my scene.

    Thanks for clarifying.

    Just as a side note, you may be interested in a report from the worlds largest law firm called Dentons which I linked earlier. There was a blog in the Spectator about it this week. How activists can game the system to whittle parental rights re gender dysphoric children.


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    #577
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Dante7 wrote: »
    Incorrect, again. You, and the rest of the pronoun brigade would like it to be so, but the rest of us are resisting.

    What am I incorrect about exactly?

    A trans woman is legally a woman. Aren’t they?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #578
    TCM
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭TCM


    Brian? wrote:
    It’s many things. But it’s a fact that a trans woman is legally a woman.


    Legally or not, there is no such thing as a trans woman.


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    #579
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    you're both arguing semantics. You're both correct. sortof.

    Yep. I think that’s lost on the other side though.

    I’m attempting to make the same point repeatedly. There is nothing black and white about this debate. No one is 100% right or wrong. The issue is far too complex to fit into a post on boards.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #580
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    Brian? wrote: »

    It’s many things. But it’s a fact that a trans woman is legally a woman.

    Your repeating that has all the moral authority of a Sharia judge declaring a woman to have the legal worth of quarter a man or 3 donkeys or some such. But, hey, knock yourself out.


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    #581
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ironicname wrote: »
    Because it is nonsense.

    It makes no sense.

    The literal definition of nonsense.



    It is a fact that men are not women.

    Legality of self id does not change the fact

    It changes one fact. Legal gender.

    Honestly, I can’t see why this simple fact is so
    difficult for you to accept.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #582
    Ironicname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭Ironicname


    Brian? wrote:
    I’m attempting to make the same point repeatedly. There is nothing black and white about this debate. No one is 100% right or wrong. The issue is far too complex to fit into a post on boards.

    No. I am 100% correct. A person born with a penis is not a woman. A person born with a vagina is not a man.


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    #583
    ingalway
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭ingalway


    Brian? wrote: »
    What am I incorrect about exactly?

    A trans woman is legally a woman. Aren’t they?
    But never biologically and there are only biological males and biological females you can never change either.


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    #584
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Gynoid wrote: »
    Your repeating that has all the moral authority of a Sharia judge declaring a woman to have the legal worth of quarter a man or 3 donkeys or some such. But, hey, knock yourself out.

    Brilliant. That’s absolutely first class whataboutery.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #585
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ironicname wrote: »
    No. I am 100% correct. A person born with a penis is not a woman. A person born with a vagina is not a man.

    So why can they legally change gender?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #586
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    ingalway wrote: »
    But never biologically and there are only biological males and biological females you can never change either.

    Absolutely correct. I never said otherwise.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #587
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Dante7 wrote: »
    That is an idiotic post which completely misses the issue of why biological sex is important when it comes to blood transfusions. You really don't seem to understand the concept of risk analysis.


    Oh I understand why biological sex is just one of the important factors to consider when doing blood matching for transfusions. It’s precisely because I do understand the complexities of blood donations, transfusions and organ transplants that I made it clear when undergoing a medical procedure recently that I didn’t consent to any blood transfusions. The anaesthesiologist tried to fob me off alright, but I was having none of it.

    Apart from that, it’s imperative as part of my job that I understand risk assessment and analysis, like assessing and understanding the risks of denying people their human rights and how it affects their healthcare. “Doctors will ignore you because they understand science” was an off the cuff remark that you don’t appear to have given too much thought to is all.


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    #588
    ingalway
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭ingalway


    "Sexual minorities once demanded freedom from oppression – now they demand freedom from reality."
    https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/09/16/sorry-sam-smith-but-youre-still-a-he/


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    #589
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    Brian? wrote: »
    Brilliant. That’s absolutely first class whataboutery.

    No. It is the law there that a womans testimony is worth half a mans in many countries. I am certain there are forums where a Brian is repeating that this is legally so, ad nauseum.

    Personally I have no problem with trans people assuming the legal fiction of being the sex they identify with, per se.
    But the fact is it gives rise to difficult issues. And perhaps more importantly it is problematic if such legal status compels people generally to affirm that the person has factually changed sex. Because that is tyranny.


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    #590
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Oh I understand why biological sex is just one of the important factors to consider when doing blood matching for transfusions. It’s precisely because I do understand the complexities of blood donations, transfusions and organ transplants that I made it clear when undergoing a medical procedure recently that I didn’t consent to any blood transfusions. The anaesthesiologist tried to fob me off alright, but I was having none of it.

    Apart from that, it’s imperative as part of my job that I understand risk assessment and analysis, like assessing and understanding the risks of denying people their human rights and how it affects their healthcare. “Doctors will ignore you because they understand science” was an off the cuff remark that you don’t appear to have given too much thought to is all.

    Ok then.


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    #591
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Gynoid wrote: »
    No. It is the law there that a womans testimony is worth half a mans in many countries. I am certain there are forums where a Brian is repeating that this is legally so, ad nauseum.

    Personally I have no problem with trans people assuming the legal fiction of being the sex they identify with, per se.
    But the fact is it gives rise to difficult issues. And perhaps more importantly it is problematic if such legal status compels people generally to affirm that the person has factually changed sex. Because that is tyranny.

    I’m interested in why you define this as “tyranny”.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #592
    Ironicname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭Ironicname


    Brian? wrote:
    So why can they legally change gender?

    Because people like you capitulate to their "reality".


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    #593
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,127 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Brian? wrote: »
    What am I incorrect about exactly?

    A trans woman is legally a woman. Aren’t they?

    Jessica Yaniv is legally a woman. Do you think that the aestheticians that were taken to court by Yaniv were being discriminatory by not offering her their female waxing services?


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    #594
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    Brian? wrote: »
    I’m interested in why you define this as “tyranny”.

    Because the fact is that no human can CHANGE sex. They can have a changed legal status re gender. But they are not actually a woman if born male, they are a transwoman. Ditto transman. If people are compelled to say a transwoman IS a woman when it is factually incorrect, this is tyranny.


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    #595
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Jessica Yaniv is legally a woman. Do you think that the aestheticians that were taken to court by Yaniv were being discriminatory by not offering her their female waxing services?

    My first post in this thread was to point out that Yaniv’s actions were ridiculous.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #596
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Gynoid wrote: »
    No. It is the law there that a womans testimony is worth half a mans in many countries.

    Where? We are still discussing western nations, aren't we?
    Personally I have no problem with trans people assuming the legal fiction of being the sex they identify with, per se.
    But the fact is it gives rise to difficult issues. And perhaps more importantly it is problematic if such legal status compels people generally to affirm that the person has factually changed sex. Because that is tyranny.

    It's a law that can be changed given enough pressure. Not enough pressure has been made. That's all there is to it. That's not tyranny. Trust me. I live in a Police State.

    Society and culture (driven in large part by the media) is shifting to force people to affirm that the person has factually changed sex. I've heard very little to suggest that the law is compelling people to act differently. Yet. I do see such happening in the future but society will force the issue first.


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    #597
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Gynoid wrote: »
    Because the fact is that no human can CHANGE sex. They can have a changed legal status re gender. But they are not actually a woman if born male, they are a transwoman. Ditto transman. If people are compelled to say a transwoman IS a woman when it is factually incorrect, this is tyranny.

    You and I seem to have a different definition of tyranny. What is forcibly being imposed on your here?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #598
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    So why can they legally change gender?

    Because the law is an ass


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    #599
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Dante7 wrote: »
    Ok then.


    What’s your point there horse?


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    #600
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    ingalway wrote: »
    "Sexual minorities once demanded freedom from oppression – now they demand freedom from reality."
    https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/09/16/sorry-sam-smith-but-youre-still-a-he/


    That chap assumes he has the authority to speak on behalf of society? He’s in no position to point fingers at narcissists :pac:


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    #601
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    Brian? wrote: »
    You and I seem to have a different definition of tyranny. What is forcibly being imposed on your here?

    Examples
    Womens sports usurped
    Male bodied rapists in womens prison in Ireland
    Women being refered to as pregnant people instead of mothers in the Dail post repeal referendum.
    Sex ed that teaches children erroneously that they could be born in the wrong body
    Use of experimental and dangerous drugs on scores of children from Ireland refered to Tavistock
    Etc etc
    But you know all this stuff. You prefer to argue from the deceitful position of the nit picking semantic pedant. It is wearisome and boring, but I suspect that is the intention. To literally bore people out of engagement.


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