Near Misses Volume 2 (So close you can feel it)

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121858417#Comment_121858417

Can you refer us ro that specific piece of legislation because I know of another law which was quoted earlier today which disproves your claim entirely?

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121858107#Comment_121858107

The full text is also in my post. "Approaches the turn" was my attempt at a summarisation. If a cyclist is just behind a car as it approaches a junction, it's on them to watch the indicators and leave braking space. It's the driver's responsibility to signal in good time and check their blind spots (and not overtake before making a turn), but if you're saying they have yield to someone behind them, that gets really difficult.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121858380#Comment_121858380

There is no new wording. That 2012 SI was the one that made it legal to overtake on the left, unless you can give a prior reference?

They are not legally allowed to filter on the left when the vehicle has already moved to the left.

Why not?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856198#Comment_121856198

You're disagreeing with your own post, the reasonable expectation bit is irrelevant as it's already happened. The OP IS approaching the turn, they've executed the move to the left, therefore making it illegal for following cyclists to filter to their left.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121858586#Comment_121858586

Without any further waffle, can you please cite the law you're basing your argument on?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121858632#Comment_121858632

I've just explained it based on the same law posted.

Can you post a law that entitles following traffic to filter to the left of traffic that has already moved to the left in order to execute a left turn?

Seth Brundle

It was posted earlier (quoting from the earlier post)...

They may not overtake a vehicle on the left where "vehicle to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle". (SI 2012/332)

The cyclists were clearly able to pass the OP given that they interacted with them!

knockoutned

I believe they came up on the path, not the road, as I was just passed the entrance to Michaels where there is no curb.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121858732#Comment_121858732

The whole point is is that they shouldn't have Seth, squeezing past and banging on the car is not on. Telling the OP they shouldn't be in a painted shared cycle lane is wrong.

We all rightfully lambast a driver who couldn't wait five seconds to accommodate a fellow road user on here, is it any wonder that the cycling forum gets a bad rep when non accommodating cycling gets excused and defended.

The OP asked whether they'd done anything wrong. The answer is no, end of.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121858884#Comment_121858884

So you're agreeing that you were wrong on that law then. Thanks for confirming.

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121858586#Comment_121858586

As I understand it, the OP was stationary and likely to remain so while the lights were red, so perfectly legal to overtake on the left? Are you trying to say that if a car moves into a left-hand lane, it is no longer legal to overtake it on the left?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121858893#Comment_121858893

Where did i agree?. Filtering up the inside of an already indicating and already moved to the left vehicle is illegal.

Seth Brundle

FFS, no it is not (maybe you're just trolling now?)

Point out the specific part of the law which says that cyclists should not have moved along the LHS of the OP while he is sitting there at the lights waiting for a green light. I'll help you out again with rhe legislation text...

(b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—

(i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,

(ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or

(iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”,

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859048#Comment_121859048

Tbh i'd expect more from a mod, you've moved from accusing me of waffling to accusing me downright trolling.

The legislation is right there in your post, remove the reasonable expectation, the vehicle has already moved. If the vehicle is already there then there can be no expectation, reasonable or unreasonable, that it's going to move to the left.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859234#Comment_121859234

He's not a mod in cycling.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121858997#Comment_121858997

It's not. Youre wrong. Get over it. You've been wrong on this before.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121858417#Comment_121858417

There is a cycle lane, just not a mandatory one.

I don't think it was necessary by the cyclists, but it's equally not necessary to be in it. They managed to presumably stay out of the lane further back.

I'm not actually criticising the op either. I don't think they did anything wrong. It's just that you're wrong.

You've also missed the point where they are stationary too.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859234#Comment_121859234

I'm a regular poster here but feel free to report my posts if you're offended.

Now, the OP was waiting at the lights (said so themself). Cyclists were able to pass by him and interact with him so were clearly able to pass the OP's car (although it was possibly tight - not important to the question).

So I'll phrase this clearly for you: what specific text of the legislation I quoted made what the cyclists did illegal as you're continuing (for some bizarre reason) to claim?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859251#Comment_121859251

It is. It's you're. I won't thanks. Where have i been wrong?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859262#Comment_121859262

How is the OP right and i'm wrong?

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859369#Comment_121859369

Because the OP didn't do anything wrong, but your claim what the cyclists did was illegal is waffle. . You've quoted a law and then made stuff up. Give it up.

cletus

@standardg60, you seem to think that by positioning himself/herself in the left turning lane, that's enough to have begun "execut[ing] a movement."

The point being argued (and, in fact, the law quoted above) does not hold that up. The op would have to be either actively turning, car moving, rounding the junction in order for left filtering by the cyclists to be illegal, or have a green light, and the option to begin the manoeuvre, before the cyclists were able to pass.

As the op has stated that they were stopped at the lights, they couldn't simultaneously be turning at the junction. Therefore there was no reasonable expectation (per the law) that the driver could manoeuvre left before the cyclists filtered past.

knockoutned

Just to follow up, I was stopped again at this junction this morning, so I made a very conscious effort in where I positioned my car. I went as far right as I could with blocking the right lane, and I still believe a bike couldn’t squeeze by.

Not that it mattered, there was a bus in front of me blocking the full lane!

Two cyclist went up on the path to pass both myself and the bus. As I turned left having indicated, one cyclist cycled off the curb to continue straight without looking. I think it’s just a junction where I will have to be overly cautious!

Thanks for all the responses.

Seth Brundle

As mentioned, the problem lies with crap box ticking design that creates conflict between different road users.

The cyclists shouldn't be using the footpath but I do get the idea of them wanting to be in front of traffic before it starts turning (I wouldn't assume that all drivers intending to turn are indicating)

knockoutned

Oh I would agree. There is enough space at that junction to put in advance stop lane, earlier lights for cyclists and a proper separate bike lane, but it won’t happen until bus connects happens.

On a side note, I know there is a lot of money being allocated towards active travel, but I wish they would setup a dedicated team of interested engineers responsible for implementing these plans nationwide, instead of relying on current county councils to do it. It would also be useful if there was a way to highlight problems directly to them, like this junction, so a continuous improvement can happen where needed, instead of waiting for large projects. I guess I can dream!

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859575#Comment_121859575

The 'movement to the left' is not the execution of the turn, it's the positioning of the vehicle beforehand.

It's quite clear in the ROTR, the check for approaching cyclists is done before this manoeuvre. Once done, whether about to turn or stopped at lights, the vehicle has priority.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860111#Comment_121860111

Something like that would be a good idea. My last communication with a roads enginner was in relation to a new shared footpath/cycle lane along Dublin's Nangor Road. My issue is where they built the access ramp (at the yellow star) to get to the cycle lane. Using the following image, if I am cycling from where I've put a green star, I want to get onto the cycle lane but in order to do so, I need to cycle against traffic.

The engineer felt it was a satisfactory solution for me to take the first exit from the roundabout, get off my bike and walk it around the roundabout via the red stars.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860126#Comment_121860126

I assume you do know that the Rules of the Road is not the law and just an interpretation of the law with numerous inaccuracies. When you are stopped at a set of lights, you do NOT have priority. Cyclists as per the legislation I and others have shown are legally entitled to travel up along your left.

CoffeeImpala

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860126#Comment_121860126

Leaving aside the fact that the ROTR are not legislation.

You should check for traffic before any manoeuvre. Once you've stopped the manoeuvre is over and a new check should be done before starting the next manoeuvre.

knockoutned

Yeah, that’s why I said interested engineers, engineers who would regularly cycle, walk or wheel (never heard of this term before this week) and would have an interest in doing it right. Would probably need to pay them equivalent of a private sector wage, however, I would imagine that there would be cost savings in the long run. Anyway a pipe dream!

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860126#Comment_121860126

That makes no sense. In order to change lane to the left turning lane, the op would have had to check for cyclists. Lets presume he did, saw none, and proceeded into the left turn lane.

There is now a new manoeuvre to be completed, namely, turning left at the actual junction. Even though he is indicating his intention to turn left, he is stopped at a red light, so there is no expectation that he will be able to complete that manoeuvre before the cyclists filter past.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860126#Comment_121860126

Rules of the road are advice. They're not the law .

You are wrong