Degree from IT or University, is there a difference?

joe40

I have two teenagers who will be making career choices over the coming years. Obviously this will be their choice and I'll support them as much as possible but I also want to be the position to offer informed advice.


So my question has to do with career/ further education prospects for students from institute of Technology as opposed to University.

For example, if my youngster was to do an engineering degree at the local IT, it would make a lot more financial sense, than paying for accommodation in one of our cities.

But would there be a downside in terms of how prospective employers would view the degree or how other universities would view the degree if he were to apply for a post graduate course.

In short is it worth the extra expense for a student to attend university (and pay for accommodation) as opposed to the local IT.

For now leaving out the "student experience" aspect

Interested in hearing about people's experiences or opinions.

Omackeral

I don't know about any of that but people saying ''Uni'' over here doesn't sit right with me.

anacc

Depending on the type of work some employers prefer University because it’s seen as more academic and other employers prefer *IT because it’s more practical and hands-on. I’ve met both types in my career (IT), but in my experience most employers actually don’t care. My advice is to just do the course in the college that they feel is right for them. After a few years of experience most employers won’t even look at third-level qualifications unless they require an MBA or such.

Mango Joe

There's no definite or absolute answer to this.

But, in general terms...

I've a degree from an IT and would expect that a prospective Employer would much rather extend a job offer to a candidate from say for example UL.

Certainly they'll all see the various 3rd level intuitions as being ranked against each other and will have preconceived notions about the quality of student/graduate they produce after 4 years.

And in a lot of cases they'll be absolutely right.....

The real questions here are things like how rubbish and outdated are the lecturing staff? Do they accept a 1st year intake of 500 students and whittle it down to 50 graduates?

Massively important is whats the co-op/job placement service/opportunities like? My current job can be traced directly back to my co-op.

El Weirdo

Not aimed specifically at you, OP, but pressuring kids to make career choices at 17/18 is ridiculous.

I worked in student accommodation for a few years and the amount of students dropping out after the first semester was insane.

EmmetSpiceland

Obviously, a university degree from Trinity or UCD would be the most sought after degrees in the country. After that you’d be looking to NUIG or UCC.

I don’t anyone really rates UL or Maynooth too highly. But they’d both be considered superior to DCU.

I’m sure IT graduates do well for themselves but I don’t think anyone who’s gone through Trinity, UCD, UCC, or NUIG really feels on the same level to the tech schools.

Now, having said that, an IT degree is far superior to any of the “wishy-washy” Arts degrees from the top universities.

megaten

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Now, having said that, an IT degree is far superior to any of the “wishy-washy” Arts degrees from the top universities.

Really? I would have thought most IT grads end up answering phones or other Helpdesk stuff so I wouldn't say it makes much of a difference for the majority.

El Weirdo

I think there is little difference. Especially after some years of working in the real world - employers seem in my experience at least to be very interested in the work you did and barely even notice what Third Level you went to.

For me personally when I inquire into the background of people who I find I do or do not work well with - it seems to be a strong predictor that they went to an IT not one of the big Universities. No idea why - but I have always found the people from ITs to be more practical and out of the box thinkers - and the people from universities to be stuffed full of theory they have no idea how to apply.

But I am an anecdote of one - so that is probably more a measure of me personally and not a measure of the relative qualities of those institutions

El Weirdo wrote: »

Not aimed specifically at you, OP, but pressuring kids to make career choices at 17/18 is ridiculous.

I worked in student accommodation for a few years and the amount of students dropping out after the first semester was insane.

Some countries in the EU begin to stream line kids into academic streams of more practical streams based on their exam results at the age of 11 and 12. At 12 here in Ireland the most I was doing was picking some elective subjects to go with the mandatory ones - not striving to get into a particular stream.

dave 27

I think a lot of it depends on what they are doing, for example i did my degree in construction management in LIT as opposed to UL because the built environment school was supposed to be one of the best in the country and was accredited by the CIOB which is a worldwide organisation

And of course i think the points were lower to get in to LIT!

Metric Tensor

You mentioned engineering OP.

Check if the engineering degree is accredited by Engineers Ireland.

This makes a huge difference career wise both in terms of employment and future advancement, including chartership.

Mango Joe

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Obviously, a university degree from Trinity or UCD would be the most sought after degrees in the country. After that you’d be looking to NUIG or UCC.

I don’t anyone really rates UL or Maynooth too highly. But they’d both be considered superior to DCU.

I’m sure IT graduates do well for themselves but I don’t think anyone who’s gone through Trinity, UCD, UCC, or NUIG really feels on the same level to the tech schools.

Now, having said that, an IT degree is far superior to any of the “wishy-washy” Arts degrees from the top universities.

May I just say.... Because i've posted on the same thread as this sentiment I feel compelled to dissociate myself from it absolutely lest there be any assumption I agree in any way.

joe40

El Weirdo wrote: »

Not aimed specifically at you, OP, but pressuring kids to make career choices at 17/18 is ridiculous.

I worked in student accommodation for a few years and the amount of students dropping out after the first semester was insane.

My kids aren't even that age yet and I'm certainly not pressurizing them, just trying to inform myself. I said that at the start their choices will be there own, and I will support that.
I'm actually trying to avoid what you are talking about, making bad choices for college and dropping out

adam88

I’ve degrees and diplomas coming out my ears and I’ve friends with masters. The paperwork will get you a seat at the interview table, it’s how you present yourself that’s going to get you the job.

Mango Joe

El Weirdo wrote: »

Not aimed specifically at you, OP, but pressuring kids to make career choices at 17/18 is ridiculous.

I worked in student accommodation for a few years and the amount of students dropping out after the first semester was insane.

Not specifically aimed at OP? Where in the name of God did you somehow manage to pick up that the OP was pressuring his children in any sense?????

The entire opening post reads like a parent doing their best to inform themselves and carry out a decent parenting role to the very best of their ability?

Also it may surprise you that a lot of people go to College aged 18....Most in fact (????)

megaten wrote: »

Really? I would have thought most IT grads end up answering phones or other Helpdesk stuff so I wouldn't say it makes much of a difference for the majority.

Helpdesk has always been entry level IT.....Many IT Managers would have started with an IT Degree and a foot in the door somewhere in the hopes of establishing their fledgling career.

I'd be utterly inconsolable if my child ever told me they hoped to read the Canterbury Tales as part of a 3rd level degree programme rather than at home of an evening with a nice cup of tea.

granturismo

Metric Tensor wrote: »

You mentioned engineering OP.

Check if the engineering degree is accredited by Engineers Ireland.

This makes a huge difference career wise both in terms of employment and future advancement, including chartership.

This is spot on. Some if not all Universities offer a 5th year add on to graduate with a masters which gives chartered engineer status. Check if the IoTs have this 5th year.

This is always an option as part time study later in life.

A course with workplacement is another pro in my opinion.

JohnnyFlash

If your kids aren’t smart enough to get the points to do a proper degree in a university then I’d suggest you and your child get over this bizarre fascination with them going to 3rd level.

Having them pricking around for a couple of years doing a useless arts degree is a waste of money. So is doing some diploma in Tractor Maintenance and Blockchain in some shambolic IT in Dundalk or Tralee.

The Rape of Lucretia

Metric Tensor wrote: »

You mentioned engineering OP.

Check if the engineering degree is accredited by Engineers Ireland.

This makes a huge difference career wise both in terms of employment and future advancement, including chartership.

I would counter that it makes no difference. Possibly for civil engineers but not even sure if that is the case, or if it is, why it is so. Engineers Ireland or chartership doesnt matter a whit in Ireland.

There's not a whole lot of difference in the West. It only really matters for work in Asia. My Bachelor in Finance is from an IT. My MBA from a university. I got my MBA ten years after graduating, and I found few issues with getting work with a Bachelor from an IT. Still, for certain positions having a qualification from a better university would have been useful.

Still, I've worked in 3rd level now for seven years and I'm not terribly impressed with the knowledge/skills of professors. I'd suggest going to university for certain degrees like Business Management or Psychology. For Engineering or Computers, an IT is likely slightly better for practical purposes. An IT is also likely to have teachers with practical experience in their field whereas I've noticed many universities just have teachers with theoretical knowledge.. Not all of them, but a large % of the staff..

2011

I graduated from an engineering degree in DIT (Dublin Institute of Technology) which is now called TUD (Technical University of Dublin) and nothing changed for me :pac:

It’s only a name.

I don’t think anyone would think less of someone from MIT than from a university.

What’s more important is the syllabus, the qualification itself, the reputation of the institution and the accreditation.

Tom Dunne

joe40 wrote: »

I have two teenagers who will be making career choices over the coming years. Obviously this will be their choice and I'll support them as much as possible but I also want to be the position to offer informed advice.


So my question has to do with career/ further education prospects for students from institute of Technology as opposed to University.

For example, if my youngster was to do an engineering degree at the local IT, it would make a lot more financial sense, than paying for accommodation in one of our cities.

But would there be a downside in terms of how prospective employers would view the degree or how other universities would view the degree if he were to apply for a post graduate course.

In short is it worth the extra expense for a student to attend university (and pay for accommodation) as opposed to the local IT.

For now leaving out the "student experience" aspect

Interested in hearing about people's experiences or opinions.

From an academic perspective, there is no difference - a Level 8 honours degree is a Level 8 honours degree, irrespective of where it came from. That's mostly what employers are concerned with.

Some employers will give preference to universities, but that is usually based on either proximity or proclivity of management (i.e. where they came from).

And remember, a lot of the IoTs are engaging in mergers to become universities (Waterford + Carlow, Cork + Tralee, Athlone + Limerick, Galway + Sligo + Letterkenny), so by the time your kids graduate from an IoT, it may in fact be a university.

Mango Joe

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

If your kids aren’t smart enough to get the points to do a proper degree in a university then I’d suggest you and your child get over this bizarre fascination with them going to 3rd level.

Having them pricking around for a couple of years doing a useless arts degree is a waste of money. So is doing some diploma in Tractor Maintenance and Blockchain in some shambolic IT in Dundalk or Tralee.

This post really shouldn't be dismissed as in its own way it is actually answering the OPs query better and more definitively than anyone else has.

Sadly.

joe40

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

If your kids aren’t smart enough to get the points to do a proper degree in a university then I’d suggest you and your child get over this bizarre fascination with them going to 3rd level.

Having them pricking around for a couple of years doing a useless arts degree is a waste of money. So is doing some diploma in Tractor Maintenance and Blockchain in some shambolic IT in Dundalk or Tralee.

Thanks for all the people that gave informed and helpful responses but the above post is incredible.

I myself went to an RTC as they were known in the 80's, then went to university to do a degree, then work, then teacher training.
Teaching since 1995 from a "shambolic IT". I'm not claiming teaching is the pinnacle of success, but still a job that requires a degree.

In saying that I agree university/academia should not be the only option and in many cases not the best option for kids. But I think it is unfair to be so totally dismissive of ITs.

Maybe I'm being a tight bastard but my kid going to a local IT would be a lot cheaper for me, even if he had the points for university. Not the deciding factor though.

Trigger Happy

In simple terms – is an Engineering degree from a university better regarded then one from an IT? The answer is yes.
But is terms of a financial decision the answer is less clear cut. It is unlikely your kids will be repaying you the cost of their 3rd level so the question then becomes whether you believe it is worth to spend the extra to give them that better chance in the jobs market or not. For me the answer would be yes but there is no way I would be indebting the family for years if we could not afford it. So yeah- complex.
A good degree is one part of the equation to a successful career as mentioned above. It’s an important one at the outset and diminishes over time as experience is more relevant.

Elemonator

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Obviously, a university degree from Trinity or UCD would be the most sought after degrees in the country. After that you’d be looking to NUIG or UCC.

I don’t anyone really rates UL or Maynooth too highly. But they’d both be considered superior to DCU.

The most recent world rankings have DCU and Maynooth in the same bracket at 401-500 and UL at 501-600. Trinity is 117th, mental we don't have a top 100 institution.

anacc wrote: »

Depending on the type of work some employers prefer University because it’s seen as more academic and other employers prefer *IT because it’s more practical and hands-on.

I can actually back this up. My dad is a department head at a pharmaceutical plant. He's told me that when a Trinity student and a DIT student apply for a job, each has their own strengths. DIT students are much more hands on and would do some things better than say a Trinity student whose education was more theoretical.

Research the courses instead and see if they are accredited by their respective bodies if applicable (like accounting). Research the course, not so much the college at times. Some well respected colleges do have courses that aren't so great.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Obviously, a university degree from Trinity or UCD would be the most sought after degrees in the country. After that you’d be looking to NUIG or UCC.

I don’t anyone really rates UL or Maynooth too highly. But they’d both be considered superior to DCU.

I’m sure IT graduates do well for themselves but I don’t think anyone who’s gone through Trinity, UCD, UCC, or NUIG really feels on the same level to the tech schools.

Now, having said that, an IT degree is far superior to any of the “wishy-washy” Arts degrees from the top universities.

I have a TCD science degree and, honestly, it really was more geared towards putting people on the academia path. Graduates of other universities and ITs often had better lab skills straight out of college.

I also think many humanities courses were just as hard as my science degree. I would struggle with anything law or philosophy related. They require a different kind of thinking.

I find the bias against humanities subjects quite anti-intellectual.

pauliebdub

We used to take on IT graduates from both universities and IT's. Having work experience seems to make a considerable difference to how these graduates get on and their attitude towards work. University graduates with no work experience tend to think that they know it all and can be smug and self satisfied and are reluctant to accept guidance. Then they fail miserably with their task and try and hide their mistakes.

Graduates from IT's rarely had this and were able to work better in teams and accept guidance to help them learn. They usually had 6 or 8 moths of work placement before graduating.

hots

There's a fair chunk of snobbery about it alright, Trintiy & UCD top, all other universities and DIT second tier, everything else a good distance after that. Exceptions would be computer science or similar (they seem to be taken more on merit, might be more to do with the hirers) and arts degrees (which are all equally ****e).

hots

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Obviously, a university degree from Trinity or UCD would be the most sought after degrees in the country. After that you’d be looking to NUIG or UCC.

I don’t anyone really rates UL or Maynooth too highly. But they’d both be considered superior to DCU.

I’m sure IT graduates do well for themselves but I don’t think anyone who’s gone through Trinity, UCD, UCC, or NUIG really feels on the same level to the tech schools.

Now, having said that, an IT degree is far superior to any of the “wishy-washy” Arts degrees from the top universities.

Maybe UCC a slight cut above the other not-UCD/Trinity universities but NUIG/UL/Maynooth/DCU all get looked on the same way in my experience, a proper degree but nothing too special. DIT in fairness are close enough too.

EmmetSpiceland

Can anyone else feel the “school of hard knocks” types itching to post about how third level isn’t all it’s “cracked up” to be?

spurious

Many ITs closely involve prospective employers when designing their curriculum, which may be a plus. Of course job prospects usually depend more on the candidate than the degree.

Metric Tensor

granturismo wrote: »

This is spot on. Some if not all Universities offer a 5th year add on to graduate with a masters which gives chartered engineer status.

Just a slight correction - No masters gives chartered status. However in a.lot of cases you will need the masters to apply for chartered status later in career.

rrudden

I'd agree with the IEI accreditation if becoming an Engineer. Once you become Chartered, the issuing body for the underlying degree is not so important, especially abroad as the IEI Chartership would be recognised by engineering bodies abroad.

Links:
Reasons to become a chartered engineer
http://www.engineersireland.ie/membership/registered-titles/chartered.aspx

Accredited Courses
http://www.engineersireland.ie/Services/Accredited-Courses/Chartered-Engineer.aspx

joe40

hots wrote: »

There's a fair chunk of snobbery about it alright, Trintiy & UCD top, all other universities and DIT second tier, everything else a good distance after that. Exceptions would be computer science or similar (they seem to be taken more on merit, might be more to do with the hirers) and arts degrees (which are all equally ****e).

Yeah I know the "snobbery exists", but was just curious as to how much impact this has in the real world.

Our Local IT is Letterkenny which probably has the lowest points in the country, but that is down to the fact that nobody want to travel that far unless they're from the area.
So if a student achieved the points for university, are there major disadvantages to an IT instead.

My thinking is probably yes in terms of securing first job but probably less so as one progresses through their career.

The other thing I was considering is that many people pursue further degrees, Masters or doctorate, so if initial degree was from an IoT would the further degree wipe out any "disadvantage" for want of a better word, associated with an IT degree.

Thanks again for all the responses.

Psychedelic Hedgehog

I can echo the experiences of RTC grads having more hands on experience. Four of us with IT degrees from an RTC landed at the same company years ago and it was commented on by management how quickly we hit the ground running compared to grads from other universities.

(puts down own trumpet)

IAMAMORON

For me it is all about international recognition.

There is a little known cartoon course in the VEC in Ballyfermot that churns out regular Oscar winners and nominations for animation movies annually.

When I was in the states not many people had heard of the DIT, but they had all heard of Trinity College. I used to lie at parties, it worked.

Your kids are going to learn, whatever they are going to learn, wherever they learn, whatever they learn, it is up to them how much knowledge they expose themselves to. If they want to learn that is.

EmmetSpiceland

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Now, having said that, an IT degree is far superior to any of the “wishy-washy” Arts degrees from the top universities.

Absolutely untrue, just in case anyone is fooled by this nonsense. Some of the most successful people in the country did arts degrees in university.

Micheal O'Leary: Business and Economics at Trinity, Denis O'Brien: History and Politics at UCD just to give two obvious examples.

Look up any CEO in this country and chances are probably about 50/50 they have an arts degree from a university.

golfball37

A good qualification from a reputable IT is worth more in practical learned terms and career prospects than a degree from a second rate university such as UL or DCU in my opinion.

El Weirdo

Mango Joe wrote: »

Not specifically aimed at OP? Where in the name of God did you somehow manage to pick up that the OP was pressuring his children in any sense?????

I didn't pick that up from the OP, which is sort of why I said it wasn't aimed at him.

megaten

Mango Joe wrote: »

Helpdesk has always been entry level IT.....Many IT Managers would have started with an IT Degree and a foot in the door somewhere in the hopes of establishing their fledgling career.

I'd be utterly inconsolable if my child ever told me they hoped to read the Canterbury Tales as part of a 3rd level degree programme rather than at home of an evening with a nice cup of tea.

How many realistically move on from Helpdesk into actual technical roles though? Many people I know or know of with IT degree's either stayed in call centre style situations, or moved on to stuff like sales or project management.

chrissb8

It barely matters. What matters is the quality of the course. I did a Marketing BA in an IT and to be honest it was fairly useless in its last year. Ironically, it was not digital enough.

Make sure to compare what the course teaches to what is relevant in your industry to gain employment or you could grow disillusioned very fast with the wrong course and the wrong curriculum.

Metric Tensor

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I would counter that it makes no difference. Possibly for civil engineers but not even sure if that is the case, or if it is, why it is so. Engineers Ireland or chartership doesnt matter a whit in Ireland.

In Ireland you can't act in the role of Assigned Certifier as an engineer unless you are Chartered. So that's a direct place where it is essential. It also may have an effect on Professional Indemnity Insurance although that's not always the case.


However, I recognise that the above mainly relates to "built environment" type engineering roles. I have no idea if it's important in the tech sector or similar.


Finally as rruden says above the accreditation of the degree and/or subsequent chartered status makes moving country a lot easier as there are international agreements between Engineers Ireland and other foreign bodies that allow qualifications to be recognised elsewhere. (Again, not sure if that matters in tech or similar circles but it does in structures at a minimum!)

Salthillprom

granturismo wrote: »

Some if not all Universities offer a 5th year add on to graduate with a masters which gives chartered engineer status.

You still have to have a number of years postgraduate work experience and you have to write a report and pass an interview process to become a Chartered Engineer. Doing a 5 year engineering degree course does not get you chartership status by itself! You have to prove your competency to Engineers Ireland by doing what I've described above.

In terms of engineering, yes there is a difference between ITs and universities.

ITs usually produce technicians (even though they might complete the engineering degree course, it won't be a level 9, which is what a university will now offer for a 5 year degree plus masters course).

Depends on what career path your children want to take. If they want to become engineers in the true sense of the word, go to university. UCD, UL, NUIG, UCC or UL.

Tea Shock

As someone who conducts technical interviews with applicants, I can tell you it not only depends on the college, but it can depend on the course within the same college too.

Most of our applicants come from a local IT. In one course, we get very good graduates. In another course where the requirement is for Masters graduates, in the same IT, they're a disaster and are noticeably behind candidates from any other college, be it a university or an IT - we've hired NONE of them!

In any case, all of the Institute's of Technology will be gone in a few years. IT Blanch, DIT and Tallaght IT are already universities. The rest will follow. Although I don't think the content of their course will change one iota other than in the normal way that they always did.

gooch2k9

joe40 wrote: »

Yeah I know the "snobbery exists", but was just curious as to how much impact this has in the real world.

Our Local IT is Letterkenny which probably has the lowest points in the country, but that is down to the fact that nobody want to travel that far unless they're from the area.
So if a student achieved the points for university, are there major disadvantages to an IT instead.

My thinking is probably yes in terms of securing first job but probably less so as one progresses through their career.

The other thing I was considering is that many people pursue further degrees, Masters or doctorate, so if initial degree was from an IoT would the further degree wipe out any "disadvantage" for want of a better word, associated with an IT degree.

Thanks again for all the responses.

And attracts an awful amount of deadwood as a result! The teaching there is fine though. Definitely more hands on than universities. A fair few of the people I graduated with are in jobs and doing well for themselves. I can think of at least three senior engineers from my course.



IT graduates come out with a better chance of hitting the ground running in a job I find.



Most important thing is they pick a course they're interested in though, otherwise it's a waste of tme.

Salthillprom

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I would counter that it makes no difference. Possibly for civil engineers but not even sure if that is the case, or if it is, why it is so. Engineers Ireland or chartership doesnt matter a whit in Ireland.

Rubbish.
You have to be a Chartered Engineer to be an Assigned Certifier! Engineers Ireland and being a CEng is of crucial importance.

EmmetSpiceland

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Micheal O'Leary: Business and Economics at Trinity, Denis O'Brien: History and Politics at UCD just to give two obvious examples.

I wasn’t aware that graduates of Bess only ended up with mere a BA. Seems like a waste now, I’ve only seen BESS or BBS on paper. What does O’Leary use? I’m guessing if it’s a BA he just leaves it out.

Didn’t know that about Denis, just assumed he’d bought his degree from Dublin Business School or one of the other private ones who wait for the cheque to clear before printing your qualification.

Edgware

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Can anyone else feel the “school of hard knocks” types itching to post about how third level isn’t all it’s “cracked up” to be?

Not as good as the University of Life

LirW

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

I wasn’t aware that graduates of Bess only ended up with mere a BA. Seems like a waste now, I’ve only seen BESS or BBS on paper. What does O’Leary use? I’m guessing if it’s a BA he just leaves it out.

Didn’t know that about Denis, just assumed he’d bought his degree from Dublin Business School or one of the other private ones who wait for the cheque to clear before printing your qualification.

What is it with the notion that only people successfully completing college are worthy of earning more than 12 euros and hour and only the wise chosen ones choosing the right degree are permitted to enjoy endless success and live in the "good" areas of the capital?

hots

joe40 wrote: »

Yeah I know the "snobbery exists", but was just curious as to how much impact this has in the real world.

Our Local IT is Letterkenny which probably has the lowest points in the country, but that is down to the fact that nobody want to travel that far unless they're from the area.
So if a student achieved the points for university, are there major disadvantages to an IT instead.

My thinking is probably yes in terms of securing first job but probably less so as one progresses through their career.

The other thing I was considering is that many people pursue further degrees, Masters or doctorate, so if initial degree was from an IoT would the further degree wipe out any "disadvantage" for want of a better word, associated with an IT degree.

Thanks again for all the responses.

Yes they are at a disadvantage, probably for the first 3-5 years worth. Imo no the masters doesn't wipe it out.

JohnnyFlash

Make sure and push your kids towards finance, the law, or medicine. 2nd rate careers are in engineering, supply chain management, and computer science.

They can do that history or fine arts degree themselves when they get older. Avoid some of the general IT degrees - extremely low standard, and IT nerds always exaggerate as to how complex their job is. Learning to programme is something you can do yourself very easily.

hots

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Make sure and push your kids towards finance, the law, or medicine. 2nd rate careers are in engineering, supply chain management, and computer science.

They can do that history or fine arts degree themselves when they get older. Avoid some of the general IT degrees - extremely low standard, and IT nerds always exaggerate as to how complex their job is. Learning to programme is something you can do yourself very easily.

Ah any old eejit can get into finance, engineering seems far higher standard.

If all else fails teach or be a consultant.