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Child Item

Degree from IT or University, is there a difference?

joe40

I have two teenagers who will be making career choices over the coming years. Obviously this will be their choice and I'll support them as much as possible but I also want to be the position to offer informed advice.

So my question has to do with career/ further education prospects for students from institute of Technology as opposed to University.

For example, if my youngster was to do an engineering degree at the local IT, it would make a lot more financial sense, than paying for accommodation in one of our cities.

But would there be a downside in terms of how prospective employers would view the degree or how other universities would view the degree if he were to apply for a post graduate course.

In short is it worth the extra expense for a student to attend university (and pay for accommodation) as opposed to the local IT.

For now leaving out the "student experience" aspect

Interested in hearing about people's experiences or opinions.

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rrudden

I'd agree with the IEI accreditation if becoming an Engineer. Once you become Chartered, the issuing body for the underlying degree is not so important, especially abroad as the IEI Chartership would be recognised by engineering bodies abroad.

Links:
Reasons to become a chartered engineer
http://www.engineersireland.ie/membership/registered-titles/chartered.aspx

Accredited Courses
http://www.engineersireland.ie/Services/Accredited-Courses/Chartered-Engineer.aspx

joe40

hots wrote: »

There's a fair chunk of snobbery about it alright, Trintiy & UCD top, all other universities and DIT second tier, everything else a good distance after that. Exceptions would be computer science or similar (they seem to be taken more on merit, might be more to do with the hirers) and arts degrees (which are all equally ****e).

Yeah I know the "snobbery exists", but was just curious as to how much impact this has in the real world.

Our Local IT is Letterkenny which probably has the lowest points in the country, but that is down to the fact that nobody want to travel that far unless they're from the area.
So if a student achieved the points for university, are there major disadvantages to an IT instead.

My thinking is probably yes in terms of securing first job but probably less so as one progresses through their career.

The other thing I was considering is that many people pursue further degrees, Masters or doctorate, so if initial degree was from an IoT would the further degree wipe out any "disadvantage" for want of a better word, associated with an IT degree.

Thanks again for all the responses.

Psychedelic Hedgehog

I can echo the experiences of RTC grads having more hands on experience. Four of us with IT degrees from an RTC landed at the same company years ago and it was commented on by management how quickly we hit the ground running compared to grads from other universities.

(puts down own trumpet)

IAMAMORON

For me it is all about international recognition.

There is a little known cartoon course in the VEC in Ballyfermot that churns out regular Oscar winners and nominations for animation movies annually.

When I was in the states not many people had heard of the DIT, but they had all heard of Trinity College. I used to lie at parties, it worked.

Your kids are going to learn, whatever they are going to learn, wherever they learn, whatever they learn, it is up to them how much knowledge they expose themselves to. If they want to learn that is.

[Deleted User]

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Now, having said that, an IT degree is far superior to any of the “wishy-washy” Arts degrees from the top universities.

Absolutely untrue, just in case anyone is fooled by this nonsense. Some of the most successful people in the country did arts degrees in university.

Micheal O'Leary: Business and Economics at Trinity, Denis O'Brien: History and Politics at UCD just to give two obvious examples.

Look up any CEO in this country and chances are probably about 50/50 they have an arts degree from a university.

golfball37

A good qualification from a reputable IT is worth more in practical learned terms and career prospects than a degree from a second rate university such as UL or DCU in my opinion.

El Weirdo

Mango Joe wrote: »

Not specifically aimed at OP? Where in the name of God did you somehow manage to pick up that the OP was pressuring his children in any sense?????

I didn't pick that up from the OP, which is sort of why I said it wasn't aimed at him.

megaten

Mango Joe wrote: »

Helpdesk has always been entry level IT.....Many IT Managers would have started with an IT Degree and a foot in the door somewhere in the hopes of establishing their fledgling career.

I'd be utterly inconsolable if my child ever told me they hoped to read the Canterbury Tales as part of a 3rd level degree programme rather than at home of an evening with a nice cup of tea.

How many realistically move on from Helpdesk into actual technical roles though? Many people I know or know of with IT degree's either stayed in call centre style situations, or moved on to stuff like sales or project management.

chrissb8

It barely matters. What matters is the quality of the course. I did a Marketing BA in an IT and to be honest it was fairly useless in its last year. Ironically, it was not digital enough.

Make sure to compare what the course teaches to what is relevant in your industry to gain employment or you could grow disillusioned very fast with the wrong course and the wrong curriculum.

Metric Tensor

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I would counter that it makes no difference. Possibly for civil engineers but not even sure if that is the case, or if it is, why it is so. Engineers Ireland or chartership doesnt matter a whit in Ireland.

In Ireland you can't act in the role of Assigned Certifier as an engineer unless you are Chartered. So that's a direct place where it is essential. It also may have an effect on Professional Indemnity Insurance although that's not always the case.

However, I recognise that the above mainly relates to "built environment" type engineering roles. I have no idea if it's important in the tech sector or similar.

Finally as rruden says above the accreditation of the degree and/or subsequent chartered status makes moving country a lot easier as there are international agreements between Engineers Ireland and other foreign bodies that allow qualifications to be recognised elsewhere. (Again, not sure if that matters in tech or similar circles but it does in structures at a minimum!)

Salthillprom

granturismo wrote: »

Some if not all Universities offer a 5th year add on to graduate with a masters which gives chartered engineer status.

You still have to have a number of years postgraduate work experience and you have to write a report and pass an interview process to become a Chartered Engineer. Doing a 5 year engineering degree course does not get you chartership status by itself! You have to prove your competency to Engineers Ireland by doing what I've described above.

In terms of engineering, yes there is a difference between ITs and universities.

ITs usually produce technicians (even though they might complete the engineering degree course, it won't be a level 9, which is what a university will now offer for a 5 year degree plus masters course).

Depends on what career path your children want to take. If they want to become engineers in the true sense of the word, go to university. UCD, UL, NUIG, UCC or UL.

Tea Shock

As someone who conducts technical interviews with applicants, I can tell you it not only depends on the college, but it can depend on the course within the same college too.

Most of our applicants come from a local IT. In one course, we get very good graduates. In another course where the requirement is for Masters graduates, in the same IT, they're a disaster and are noticeably behind candidates from any other college, be it a university or an IT - we've hired NONE of them!

In any case, all of the Institute's of Technology will be gone in a few years. IT Blanch, DIT and Tallaght IT are already universities. The rest will follow. Although I don't think the content of their course will change one iota other than in the normal way that they always did.

gooch2k9

joe40 wrote: »

Yeah I know the "snobbery exists", but was just curious as to how much impact this has in the real world.

Our Local IT is Letterkenny which probably has the lowest points in the country, but that is down to the fact that nobody want to travel that far unless they're from the area.
So if a student achieved the points for university, are there major disadvantages to an IT instead.

My thinking is probably yes in terms of securing first job but probably less so as one progresses through their career.

The other thing I was considering is that many people pursue further degrees, Masters or doctorate, so if initial degree was from an IoT would the further degree wipe out any "disadvantage" for want of a better word, associated with an IT degree.

Thanks again for all the responses.

And attracts an awful amount of deadwood as a result! The teaching there is fine though. Definitely more hands on than universities. A fair few of the people I graduated with are in jobs and doing well for themselves. I can think of at least three senior engineers from my course.

IT graduates come out with a better chance of hitting the ground running in a job I find.

Most important thing is they pick a course they're interested in though, otherwise it's a waste of tme.

Salthillprom

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I would counter that it makes no difference. Possibly for civil engineers but not even sure if that is the case, or if it is, why it is so. Engineers Ireland or chartership doesnt matter a whit in Ireland.

Rubbish.
You have to be a Chartered Engineer to be an Assigned Certifier! Engineers Ireland and being a CEng is of crucial importance.

EmmetSpiceland

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Micheal O'Leary: Business and Economics at Trinity, Denis O'Brien: History and Politics at UCD just to give two obvious examples.

I wasn’t aware that graduates of Bess only ended up with mere a BA. Seems like a waste now, I’ve only seen BESS or BBS on paper. What does O’Leary use? I’m guessing if it’s a BA he just leaves it out.

Didn’t know that about Denis, just assumed he’d bought his degree from Dublin Business School or one of the other private ones who wait for the cheque to clear before printing your qualification.

Edgware

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Can anyone else feel the “school of hard knocks” types itching to post about how third level isn’t all it’s “cracked up” to be?

Not as good as the University of Life

LirW

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

I wasn’t aware that graduates of Bess only ended up with mere a BA. Seems like a waste now, I’ve only seen BESS or BBS on paper. What does O’Leary use? I’m guessing if it’s a BA he just leaves it out.

Didn’t know that about Denis, just assumed he’d bought his degree from Dublin Business School or one of the other private ones who wait for the cheque to clear before printing your qualification.

What is it with the notion that only people successfully completing college are worthy of earning more than 12 euros and hour and only the wise chosen ones choosing the right degree are permitted to enjoy endless success and live in the "good" areas of the capital?

hots

joe40 wrote: »

Yeah I know the "snobbery exists", but was just curious as to how much impact this has in the real world.

Our Local IT is Letterkenny which probably has the lowest points in the country, but that is down to the fact that nobody want to travel that far unless they're from the area.
So if a student achieved the points for university, are there major disadvantages to an IT instead.

My thinking is probably yes in terms of securing first job but probably less so as one progresses through their career.

The other thing I was considering is that many people pursue further degrees, Masters or doctorate, so if initial degree was from an IoT would the further degree wipe out any "disadvantage" for want of a better word, associated with an IT degree.

Thanks again for all the responses.

Yes they are at a disadvantage, probably for the first 3-5 years worth. Imo no the masters doesn't wipe it out.

JohnnyFlash

Make sure and push your kids towards finance, the law, or medicine. 2nd rate careers are in engineering, supply chain management, and computer science.

They can do that history or fine arts degree themselves when they get older. Avoid some of the general IT degrees - extremely low standard, and IT nerds always exaggerate as to how complex their job is. Learning to programme is something you can do yourself very easily.

hots

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Make sure and push your kids towards finance, the law, or medicine. 2nd rate careers are in engineering, supply chain management, and computer science.

They can do that history or fine arts degree themselves when they get older. Avoid some of the general IT degrees - extremely low standard, and IT nerds always exaggerate as to how complex their job is. Learning to programme is something you can do yourself very easily.

Ah any old eejit can get into finance, engineering seems far higher standard.

If all else fails teach or be a consultant.

Mango Joe

megaten wrote: »

How many realistically move on from Helpdesk into actual technical roles though? Many people I know or know of with IT degree's either stayed in call centre style situations, or moved on to stuff like sales or project management.

Career progression doesn't happen magically 'to' people with certain degrees.

Equally employers won't tour call centres handing out managerial roles to people who didn't even put a hand up for them.

The people who get on in life are the ones that work hard towards achieving the requisite goals towards ensuring their own success.

Or in Ireland (but not isolated to here obviously) its often the ones with well-placed family members.

2011

Salthillprom wrote: »

ITs usually produce technicians (even though they might complete the engineering degree course, it won't be a level 9, which is what a university will now offer for a 5 year degree plus masters course).

Complete bollox.

I am a senior engineer, I have been working for one of the largest engineering consultancies in Ireland for over 10 years. At least 50% of staff including senior management have degrees from an IT. I know many in other consultancies (DPS, M+W, Jacobs etc.) and it is the same.

I’m not going to knock universities, or say that ITs are better. I will say is that it is down to the individual, what experience they have and what they can deliver. I don’t even know where most of my colleagues graduated, it’s simply not relevant. When doing a degree in engineering you learn from first principles. When working as an engineer you learn that things are done very differently in the real world. Once a competent engineer has 5 or more years experience under their belts the course they graduated from is irrelevant. The real learning happens post graduation.

Padre_Pio

Salthillprom wrote: »

Rubbish.
You have to be a Chartered Engineer to be an Assigned Certifier! Engineers Ireland and being a CEng is of crucial importance.

I work with dozens of mech and elec engineers in Ireland. None bothered getting chartered.

I've never seen the point myself. Better off getting a master's in a related discipline.

Re: University vs IT. Ive been to two colleges and two ITs in my time. ITs are more practical as many have mentioned, but there's not much difference.

It doesn't matter when you're job hunting. Far more important are decent grades and IMO being able to show an interest and passion.

I interviewed grads before and theres no difference between 90% of them. Same courses, same projects, same grades, same groups.
Give me a CV where someone shows they do hobby projects outside of college and I'll hire that person all day long.

baby and crumble

To everyone pooh-poohing 'wishy washy' arts degrees, tell me how would you get on in life without

teachers
historians
researchers for the documentaries and tv shows you like
musicians
psychologists
social workers
social researchers
policy makers

and the myriad other roles that are filled with arts graduates for whom their degree is what got them their job, and taught them what they need to know?

The absolute WORST thing a parent can do is push their kids into a career they don't like or have zero aptitude for. At best they'll finish their degree and hop into a job they hate, at worst they'll drop out, or worse. I did an arts degree and followed it up with a relevant postgrad. I'm now happily in an excellent job that I love. If my parents had tried to push me towards a STEM career I'd probably hate my life.

Raconteuse

In this country, when it comes to non academic disciplines, it hardly matters.

ITs tend to foster a better work ethic too.

Church on Tuesday

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

If your kids aren’t smart enough to get the points to do a proper degree in a university then I’d suggest you and your child get over this bizarre fascination with them going to 3rd level.

Having them pricking around for a couple of years doing a useless arts degree is a waste of money. So is doing some diploma in Tractor Maintenance and Blockchain in some shambolic IT in Dundalk or Tralee.

Or worse still.... a PLC.

The absolute horror of it my old boy.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

2011 wrote: »

I graduated from an engineering degree in DIT (Dublin Institute of Technology) which is now called TUD (Technical University of Dublin) and nothing changed for me :pac:

It’s only a name.

I don’t think anyone would think less of someone from MIT than from a university.

What’s more important is the syllabus, the qualification itself, the reputation of the institution and the accreditation.

Well, MIT is very prestigious. So of course they wouldn’t.

2011

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, MIT is very prestigious. So of course they wouldn’t.

Exactly.
You have just made my point i.e. there are far more important factors than whether someone graduates from an IT or a university.

TimeToShine

2011 wrote: »

Complete bollox.

I am a senior engineer, I have been working for one of the largest engineering consultancies in Ireland for over 10 years. At least 50% of staff including senior management have degrees from an IT. I know many in other consultancies (DPS, M+W, Jacobs etc.) and it is the same.

I’m not going to knock universities, or say that ITs are better. I will say is that it is down to the individual, what experience they have and what they can deliver. I don’t even know where most of my colleagues graduated, it’s simply not relevant. When doing a degree in engineering you learn from first principles. When working as an engineer you learn that things are done very differently in the real world. Once a competent engineer has 5 or more years experience under their belts the course they graduated from is irrelevant. The real learning happens post graduation.

I disagree with this to be honest, you may be correct but at board and higher up level most of these companies are dominated by UCD and Trinity graduates or MBAs from prestigious universities abroad. Over here in the UK where I'm currently based you wouldn't stand a chance with the top consultancies unless you've a degree from one of these two universities or a red brick. Bain, BCG, McKinsey etc all wouldn't touch IT graduates with a barge pole, nor would any of the banks or big oil/gas majors. Straight into the bin.

I don't disagree that you can do very well without attending a university but telling someone bright and academic that there's no difference between a top university and the local IT is both untrue and completely unfair on them.

Wildly Boaring

granturismo wrote: »

This is spot on. Some if not all Universities offer a 5th year add on to graduate with a masters which gives chartered engineer status. Check if the IoTs have this 5th year.

The 5th year means you can apply for chartership once you have the necessary experience.
It does not give chartered status.