Irish Moiled & Rare breeds Market?

LostInLM

Seeing a lot of articles about Irish Moiled cattle and other rare breeds lately.
Wondering what the business model looks like for farming these breeds. What markets exists and is there grant aid for rearing rare breeds? Who normally buys and slaughters finished animals, is it mainly local or specialist butchers? Promotional articles suggest that the meat produced is of excellent quality, how reliable / believable is this?

Wondering if its worth investing in a few.

kollegeknight

LostInLM wrote: »

Seeing a lot of articles about Irish Moiled cattle and other rare breeds lately.
Wondering what the business model looks like for farming these breeds. What markets exists and is there grant aid for rearing rare breeds? Who normally buys and slaughters finished animals, is it mainly local or specialist butchers? Promotional articles suggest that the meat produced is of excellent quality, how reliable / believable is this?

Wondering if its worth investing in a few.

I know very little about the breed. I emailed a few societies and this is part of that the Irish moiled society sent me.

Irish moiled cattle are best suited to less well off grazing conditions as they have been bred to do so over the centuries. Most if not all of our members would utilize their hardy ground with this breed.
They out winter easily with a bit of shelter and will produce a vigorous calf each year .
Steers will make R grades and others O in the factories if you go down that road but there will not be a massive feed bill against them after finishing.

Now The person who I was in contact passed my details onto a breeder locally and I am waiting to hear from them. So I’ve no details on value of meat or market.

Birdnuts

A couple of Moils will be arriving on my place in the Spring - I'll give regular updates about how things are going with them here:)

kollegeknight

Birdnuts wrote: »

A couple of Moils will be arriving on my place in the Spring - I'll give regular updates about how things are going with them here:)

As in calves?

Birdnuts

kollegeknight wrote: »

As in calves?

Weanlings to start

kollegeknight

Birdnuts wrote: »

Weanlings to start

Pedigree? What breeds do you currently have? Why are you going in this direction? What price did you pay if you don’t mind me asking?

I’m considering that route.

Birdnuts

kollegeknight wrote: »

Pedigree? What breeds do you currently have? Why are you going in this direction? What price did you pay if you don’t mind me asking?

I’m considering that route.

Its more a conservation grazing project - I'll have extra rough ground to manage next year that needs tidying up. Currently have a small suckler herd of AAXs. Sourcing the Moils from a chap near Swinford. Paying in and around 800 - 900 yoyos - though still in "negotiation" on that figure;)

kollegeknight

Birdnuts wrote: »

Its more a conservation grazing project - I'll have extra rough ground to manage next year that needs tidying up. Currently have a small suckler herd of AAXs. Sourcing the Moils from a chap near Swinford. Paying in and around 800 - 900 yoyos - though still in "negotiation" on that figure;)

Do yo I think you’ll have sale for the moiled bulls? Or do you hope in finishing them?

Base price

Doe's anyone know what cattle breeds are included as rare breed status in Ireland?

kollegeknight

Base price wrote: »

Doe's anyone know what cattle breeds are included as rare breed status in Ireland?

Kerry cow
Dexter
Irish moiled

I saw on twitter that droimeann just got its breed code so I’d say it’s a matter of time.

Stationmaster

Looking into moiled or something similar myself for next year. Starting from scratch and will have about 10 acres of hilly ground that has good grass on it but wouldn't be classed as great land either. Doing it as much out of interest and a want to help preserve rare breeds as much as anything else to be honest - once I'm not losing money I'll be happy out so if anyone has any advice I'd be very grateful. Have a few pigs, goats, ponies and hens around as well.

kollegeknight

Stationmaster wrote: »

Looking into moiled or something similar myself for next year. Starting from scratch and will have about 10 acres of hilly ground that has good grass on it but wouldn't be classed as great land either. Doing it as much out of interest and a want to help preserve rare breeds as much as anything else to be honest - once I'm not losing money I'll be happy out so if anyone has any advice I'd be very grateful. Have a few pigs, goats, ponies and hens around as well.

Have you a herd number?

I contacted the Irish moiled association. They have a website. But I’ve gone no further that that.

There seems to be a rare breed conference each may and it includes ponies, pigs, sheep, goats and cattle.
If I’m free I’ll try get to next years one but I’ve no info on it, just what I googled. This was from last years conference.

http://irishrarebreedsconference.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/IrishRareBreedsConference2018FinalProgram.pdf

Stationmaster

kollegeknight wrote: »

Have you a herd number?

I contacted the Irish moiled association. They have a website. But I’ve gone no further that that.

There seems to be a rare breed conference each may and it includes ponies, pigs, sheep, goats and cattle.
If I’m free I’ll try get to next years one but I’ve no info on it, just what I googled. This was from last years conference.

http://irishrarebreedsconference.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/IrishRareBreedsConference2018FinalProgram.pdf

Yea, I just found a lot of them info a bit scattered but I suppose I shouldn't expect it to be all there at the press of a button either!

Have herd number and pig number.

kollegeknight

Stationmaster wrote: »

Yea, I just found a lot of them info a bit scattered but I suppose I shouldn't expect it to be all there at the press of a button either!

Have herd number and pig number.

What I did is directly email the Irish moiled association. And a chap from donegal replied. I’m waiting on a call back from a crowd in limerick. I’m only planning for the 2021 breeding season. I’d have more land than you but have the same mindset- as long as I don’t loose money
Where are you based? If in Connaught there seems to be sellers on DoneDeal in Sligo.

Stationmaster

kollegeknight wrote: »

What I did is directly email the Irish moiled association. And a chap from donegal replied. I’m waiting on a call back from a crowd in limerick. I’m only planning for the 2021 breeding season. I’d have more land than you but have the same mindset- as long as I don’t loose money
Where are you based? If in Connaught there seems to be sellers on DoneDeal in Sligo.

East Clare.

Base price

They have a facebook page - Irish Moiled Cattle Society.

kollegeknight

Stationmaster wrote: »

East Clare.

This crowd are in cahercornlish in Limerick. They also have droimeann cattle. I have never messaged them yet but I plan on doing so.

https://twitter.com/CaherlineIrishM?s=20

_Brian

Base price wrote: »

They have a facebook page - Irish Moiled Cattle Society.

They’re a really friendly crowd too, I’ve met them at stands in the north and it was great chatting to them.

Would love a few for sure but with work and family commitments Dry stock suit us better.

Base price

I just came across this article from the Farmers Journal about an event tomorrow in South County Dublin featuring Droimeann cattle. I have included a link to Fernhill Park and Gardens for those interested in attending.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/cow-conservation-native-breed-grazing-in-the-city-509175
https://www.dlrcoco.ie/en/parks-outdoors/fernhill-park-and-gardens

Castlekeeper

Mt. Briscoe farm in Daingean, Offaly, host a Rare Breeds Show every year in July I think, they also have a few Moiled cattle. There's ood share up the North from what I know. Moiled and Droimeann cattle are dairy breeds, (most Droimeamns are around south west I think). I've never seen a Moiley that would be ven close to an R grade.
Most old breed's are gone to pot through lack of population, selection (and thus indiscriminate breeding).Also poor management resulting in negative epigenetics hasn't helped. That said there are always a few people trying their best.

Stationmaster

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Mt. Briscoe farm in Daingean, Offaly, host a Rare Breeds Show every year in July I think, they also have a few Moiled cattle. There's ood share up the North from what I know. Moiled and Droimeann cattle are dairy breeds, (most Droimeamns are around south west I think). I've never seen a Moiley that would be ven close to an R grade.
Most old breed's are gone to pot through lack of population, selection (and thus indiscriminate breeding).Also poor management resulting in negative epigenetics hasn't helped. That said there are always a few people trying their best.

Yea, I went to the show last year. Only a small number of animals there but was interesting.

Base price

Kepak have launched a Welsh Black cattle scheme.
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/kepak-launch-welsh-black-cattle-scheme-510954

_Brian

Base price wrote: »

Kepak have launched a Welsh Black cattle scheme.
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/kepak-launch-welsh-black-cattle-scheme-510954

Why not a traditional Irish breed.

Base price

_Brian wrote: »

Why not a traditional Irish breed.

I don't know tbh but possibly down to numbers. The Welsh Black scheme will really only apply to farmers in Wales as they have the numbers. According to the article there are less than 100 cattle registered here. AFAIK there is a Dexter scheme but I can't remember who operates it.
Edit to add: There seems to be a drive in the UK to support their native breeds. Buitelaar Intl, an Irish company that operates in the UK predominantly with calf rearing schemes recently announced a Longhorn scheme in conjunction with an AI company. UK farmers are changing away from more commercial breeds and now supporting their native beef breeds.
https://www.facebook.com/buitelaargroup/posts/1382249871933141
http://www.genusbreeding.co.uk/longhorn/?fbclid=IwAR3QLGm-F1NYmValtDNL4aZAsZX8Cro3L_kSgsdJCSvAKLZEThW7xCbVZ_k

Say my name

Base price wrote: »

Kepak have launched a Welsh Black cattle scheme.
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/kepak-launch-welsh-black-cattle-scheme-510954

I thought for a minute there they were going to import Welsh black to kill in this country. :pac:

They've a factory in Wales.

Base price

Say my name wrote: »

I thought for a minute there they were going to import Welsh black to kill in this country. :pac:

They've a factory in Wales.

Yep they do and afaik they are supporting British farmers under the Red Tractor brand. The article doesn't indicate what the full terms or bonuses are.

I read a few weeks ago that the "triple a" Angus scheme has finished. The ordinary one is still going but I've heard of factories delaying booking and cutting bonuses especially during the recent beef blockades.

I don't know much about the Hereford and Shorthorn schemes and other than the aforementioned Dexter scheme I'm not aware of any other scheme for the native cattle breeds within our geographical area, iykwim.

Base price

I just saw this article from the Farming Independent about rare breeds.

You need to register with the Irish Independent (it's free) to read the article in full.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/beef/pedigree/we-have-to-ensure-that-the-native-breeds-survive-and-thrive-for-future-generations-38767374.html
A suggestion, maybe the Mods could amalgamate this thread with the other rare breed thread (https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058000545 agate) so that there is a single reference thread for those who are interested in rare breeds.

Base price

Droimeann cattle have been granted native Irish rare breed status. Kerry, Dexter and Irish Maol are the other native breeds.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0108/1105072-droimeann-cow/

Base price

A bit more here -
https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/press/pressreleases/2020/january/title,137738,en.html

_Brian

That’s great.
Credit to those keeping these breeds going and making a success of it.

Base price

_Brian wrote: »

That’s great.
Credit to those keeping these breeds going and making a success of it.

Hopefully the Bo Riabhach will survive extinction and gain native rare breed status.
https://www.duchas.ie/en/tpc/cbes/5285241

I just came across this consultation document from DAFM October '19 which if implemented could save some of our threatened native breeds.
https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/ruralenvironment/capstrategicplanpost2020/cappost2020-publicsubmissions/65OldIrishGoatSociety031219.pdf

kollegeknight

_Brian wrote: »

That’s great.
Credit to those keeping these breeds going and making a success of it.

It’s great to see. I’m reducing my herd this year and will try a few of some breed.

By 2021 I hope to keep my 3 speckle park, 2/3 red limos (on presumption they calf ok and go back in calf ok) and then hopefully 2/3 of Irish moiled or maybe droimeann. Polled moiled seem more appealing.

And a bull to service them.
I’ve to sell 5 empty cows in spring. The bull at end of summer and another 5 empty cows. So hoping to use that to set.up a little bit.

Castlekeeper

Hopefully the Droimeann and Moiled can be saved as a dairy breed as most are only poor quality sickles nowadays. Hardly enough genetic diversity but then again the modern international Holstein comes from 6 bulls so who know!

Birdnuts

_Brian wrote: »

That’s great.
Credit to those keeping these breeds going and making a success of it.

Alot more CAP money should be going to those who are safe guarding the genetic base of our native agriculture

Base price

Birdnuts wrote: »

Alot more CAP money should be going to those who are safe guarding the genetic base of our native agriculture

See my post above with reference to consultation document.

Mac Taylor

It’s been said before, but the rear breed needs a purpose....I’m interested my self in the droimeann breed but it cant be just to sell as a weanling in the local mart. I just haven’t figured this out yet.

Still waters

Great to see this, i see a lot of farmers around here farming land unfit for continental breeds and breeding cattle with big bulls just making life hard for themselves, we've thousands of acres of bog. mountain and rushes around here that native cattle would work away grand on and farmers letting big charlolais limousines and Belgians out on for 5 months of the year if they're lucky, why not farm the land you have with cows that can travel and thrive on it, I'd like to see a scheme that will introduce native breeds back onto the land and farmers might see better returns when they see less sickness, lameness from big cattle on slats for 3/4s of their lives, less vet bills from calves too big and less land maintenance from smaller cattle

I know a local lad with a herd of dexters and he's delighted with how easy he has it since he changed over from continental breeds he has a full time job, the cattle are out year round and no hardship, easy calving and easy to handle, his biggest complaint is the price he gets for beef but any loss in income is compensated by less hassle in other ways, it could be the way forward for farmers who have jobs off farm and want to make life a bit handier

Water John

Certainly the way for poorer land, either those type of stock or light store cattle.
A niche market is key, for a viable return.

Albert Johnson

Water John wrote: »

Certainly the way for poorer land, either those type of stock or light store cattle.
A niche market is key, for a viable return.

It was the way for 1000's of years but a lot has changed in the last 50 years both in and out of agriculture. Perhaps the wheel has almost gone full circle and we'll soon be looking to relearn the skills known to our ancestors that were largely lost in recent decades. It's all very romantic sounding when you look at it from that perspective.

On a serious note I had this very conversation with one of the uncle's tonight. The talk turned to tying cow's in the byre as was the norm when he was my age and first started farming, they were milking at the time but changed to sucklers although still used the old stall system to winter the cow's. I raised the notion that the old tie up byres may soon come back into fashion especially for smaller herds and for those wishing to start out farming. A slatted shed is a sizeable investment especially for a small herd where as the older tie up byres may be already available or could be constructed perhaps significantly cheaper. It wouldn't suit all set-ups but could be an option none the less, despite all it's detractors there isn't much else apart from suckler farming that comes close to being viable locally.


If the likes of the Irish Maol or similar could be kept on poorer ground and returned a modest income then perhaps we could look towards creating a more sustainable system all round. We're not really reinventing the wheel as the thinking outlined above was practiced since the dawn of Irish agriculture until very recently. Whatever your beliefs it's hard to see how modern methods have done much for the overall health of the Irish beef sector in recent years. We're very much on our knee's at the present time and I do believe that any and all possible alternatives deserve consideration before the final coffin nail is driven home on our industry.

Base price

Water John wrote: »

Certainly the way for poorer land, either those type of stock or light store cattle.
A niche market is key, for a viable return.

Probably the way to go into the future with our native breeds provenance appealing to discerning consumers whilst the rest champion genetically altered/synthesised laboratory grown elixirs.

_Brian

Birdnuts wrote: »

Alot more CAP money should be going to those who are safe guarding the genetic base of our native agriculture

Yes but the rare breeds payment was included in glas which is closed to entrants and no signs it will open again. So it’s not possible to get any supports at the moment.

With an urban centric party in government we will never see a proper understanding of rural affairs. Maybe all parties have lost their rural understanding at this stage.

Combine that with the teagasc/IFA mantra that only large intensive farms matter we are on the cusp of loosing the ability to keep rare breeds and smaller biodiversity friendly farms in operation.

endainoz

_Brian wrote: »

Yes but the rare breeds payment was included in glas which is closed to entrants and no signs it will open again. So it’s not possible to get any supports at the moment.

With an urban centric party in government we will never see a proper understanding of rural affairs. Maybe all parties have lost their rural understanding at this stage.

Combine that with the teagasc/IFA mantra that only large intensive farms matter we are on the cusp of loosing the ability to keep rare breeds and smaller biodiversity friendly farms in operation.

Isn't there a premium attached to Dexter's for finishing that isn't GLAS related? Or is that to compensate having to keep them an extra year to finish?

I'd love to buy a couple of organic Droimeann Heifers, hopefully the price won't go too high now with the renewed interest in them.

Castlekeeper

endainoz wrote: »

Isn't there a premium attached to Dexter's for finishing that isn't GLAS related? Or is that to compensate having to keep them an extra year to finish?

I'd love to buy a couple of organic Droimeann Heifers, hopefully the price won't go too high now with the renewed interest in them.

Would you be thinking of keeping them as dairy cows?

endainoz

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Would you be thinking of keeping them as dairy cows?

Oh god no, wouldn't know much about dairy at all.

Water John

Dept of Ag isn't controlled by urban politicians, just governing by one in favour of big farm industry.
If straw bedding is available, animals don't require a massive amount of it in loose housing esp if fed elsewhere.

Base price

IFJ article last week about Droimeann cattle - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=112427213#post112427213

Base price

The Old Irish goat has been classed as a native rare breed and will be elegible in future CAP schemes.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/old-irish-goat-recognised-as-native-rare-breed-to-ireland/

Edit to add link to the Old Irish goat society website -

https://oldirishgoat.ie/

n1st

Great posts here thank you all. I've posted a similar question and later found this thread.

I'm also very interested. I have 50 acres of decent grazing. It's been farmed for the past 40 yrs with bullocks and sheep, the usual breeds.

I will be selling 16 European type bullocks in November.

I would like to purchase 16 or so weanlings in March 2023.

I'm also hoping to get into the new Acres and possibly Organic. I am purposely understocked.

What do I need to know with regard to Dexter, Droimeann, bo riabhach and the difference in how the market works for summer drystock trade between the likes of Limousin and Dexter or Droimeann?

I have no experience with heifers, bulls, calves, breeding and I don't know if I want to, I only know about steers. This could change if there was little risk.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119532289#Comment_119532289

I've added a link to an Agriland article from last year about Dexters in the North. Apparently the average carcass weight is 170kgs but they do receive a premium price. I haven't heard of any meat plant this side of the border that is specialising in Irish rare breed cattle. I've seen the odd Dexter bullock/weanling bulls selling in Carrigallen mart but because they are so small/light they don't come into much money. The other thing to be aware off with Dexters is that some bloodlines carry a dwarfism gene which makes them even smaller -

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/new-herd-names-come-to-the-fore-at-balmoral-show/

A bit of information about Irish Moiled and k/o weights (220-260kgs) but I can't find info on how old they are at time of slaughter -

http://www.peekapoos.info/2021/04/Irish-Moiled.html

https://www.irishmoiledcattlesociety.com/breeder-to-butcher/

A link giving some info on our Native cattle breeds -

https://nationalinventoryich.chg.gov.ie/native-irish-cattle-breeding/

As previously posted in this thread there is a resurgence of interest in the UK to promote the commercial use of their Native cattle breeds with premiums been paid in factories. The meat is highly sought after in high end restaurants in London. A family friend owns a couple of restaurants in London told me that the provenance of their Native breeds makes them highly sought after. It's an awful pity that we don't do the same here but I suppose it's due to lack of demand.

n1st

Great information.

170 kg carcass.

With the smaller animal I presume try eat less. I could for example up my numbers from 16 to 30. But of course this would only be affordable if the purchase price is low. The difference between purchase and sell percentage would still need to be similar.

Very difficult to find information online. I do know a guy with Dexters, I will contact him

n1st

Seems to be a Moiled breeder in Westmeath

https://www.farminglife.com/country-and-farming/irish-moiled-breeders-day-at-killua-castle-3820630

Cows selling in September 3rd. Online auction or something on today