Fraud in the Dail

onetimecypher

Certain Kerry TD caught for fraud. Not like voting for your friend or double voting but getting SOMEONE ELSE to fob you in to claim expenses, while you are at home. Why no major outcry?

high_king

If you believe an Irish politician you will believe anything. The vast majority, if not all of them, are scum.
I worked with enough of them to know.

A large element of Irish society love dodgy politicians . . they regularly top the polls and always have.

There is little to zero laws against white collar crime in Ireland, and even less enforcement / deterrent / consequences.

c.p.w.g.w

onetimecypher wrote: »

Certain Kerry TD caught for fraud. Not like voting for your friend or double voting but getting SOMEONE ELSE to fob you in to claim expenses, while you are at home. Why no major outcry?

One of the Healy-Rea's?

biko

Sauce?

washman3

Saw a Green Party member buying coal today and fairly sure it wasn't smokeless. Is that fraud or hypocrisy...??

He fixed the road etc

ILoveYourVibes

They all commit fraud.

Ludikrus

Nothing will happen.

HTH

biko

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

high_king

biko wrote: »

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

Nothing great about them.

ILoveYourVibes

high_king wrote: »

Nothing great about them.

Its just hard to see their mediocrity when you look at Brexit and Trump.

But they are pretty ****.

uck51js9zml2yt

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

He fixed the road etc

All of them


And he attended a funeral. Very important in Kerry. More important than being honest and having integrity.

joeguevara

Ivor callely was imprisoned for expenses fraud.

Is there a source OP?

uck51js9zml2yt

joeguevara wrote: »

Ivor callely was imprisoned for expenses fraud.

Is there a source OP?

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/kevin-doyle-a-can-of-worms-has-been-opened-and-its-up-to-tds-to-try-to-close-it-38653854.html

joeguevara

Connor Numerous Squalor wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/kevin-doyle-a-can-of-worms-has-been-opened-and-its-up-to-tds-to-try-to-close-it-38653854.html

It's behind a pay wall so couldn't read it. Anywhere else? If true (I'm not doubting) it will be major.

uck51js9zml2yt

joeguevara wrote: »

It's behind a pay wall so couldn't read it. Anywhere else? If true (I'm not doubting) it will be major.

Just register. It's free or read below . Source INM.

Let's start with a hard truth: they are not all at it. The string of "gates" to hit our political classes in recent months has been very damaging for public trust.

It would be easy to dismiss "Swing-gate", "Votegate" and now "Fobgate" as evidence that corruption is rife and no one is to be trusted.

However, to do so would be a great disservice to our democracy and would also let those who are "at it" away scot-free.

While the House of Commons shouldn't be used as a basic barometer against which to judge our TDs, we are not badly served in this country.

A majority of Dáil deputies work hard, both in Leinster House and in their constituencies.

But a can of worms has been opened and, weirdly, it will fall to the TDs to try to close it again.

Maria Bailey's compensation claim over a fall from a swing is an isolated incident that has seen a small number of politicians dragged over the coals.

But the revelations about widespread phantom voting in the Oireachtas have brought the entire system into disrepute.

It has exposed a harsh reality, which is that a Government operating under confidence and supply doesn't give a toss about losing votes.

Every week, different opposition parties put down motions calling for policy change on climate action, agriculture, taxation and so on.

As a result, the topic gets a brief mention at Cabinet and ministers decide whether it is worth fighting the latest Opposition whim or not. Very often they simply decide to abstain on the vote when it comes before the Dáil.


Opposition TDs will appear in the media to declare "the will of the Dáil" but it's largely meaningless because the Government ignores them.

It is this sense of "insignificance" that led TDs to start flouting basic rules such as the idea that they should be present and voting.

Fianna Fáil's Lisa Chambers said she didn't think there was any need to correct the record after she voted twice because it didn't matter.

The events inside the chamber have now led us to look at the wider behaviour of TDs in Leinster House, in particular their attendance records and ability to claim lucrative expenses. It is the first time since the current system was introduced in 2010 that there has been any genuine effort to investigate its operation.

The "clock-in" system was brought in because the old unvouched expenses scheme was seen as open to abuse.

Now it seems the newer version isn't watertight either. TDs must be in Leinster House for at least 120 days to qualify for payments worth up to €34,000 annually. To prove their presence, they swipe a fob in front of one of more than 20 electronic scanners.

But there is no way of knowing who actually did the "clocking in". Could it be a secretary? A parliamentary assistance? Another TD?

And there is no process for "clocking out". The gates of Leinster House open at 7.30am, so in theory a TD could sign in then, leave the engine running and be on the road within minutes.

Michael Healy-Rae is caught in a bind by our story that shows he managed to attend a funeral in Sneem and clock in at Leinster House on the same day.

He has yet to explain how this bilocation is possible, but he is unlikely to be the only TD with questions to answer.

The colourful Independent is just the one unlucky enough to get caught out.

The Oireachtas has been slow to acknowledge a problem with the rules too loose.

At the best of times, our TDs get a bad rap for being "dodgy" or "in it for themselves". Only they can change that perception.

In the meantime, the Oireachtas must instigate reforms so that we can trust the system even if we don't trust the politicians.

tuxy

joeguevara wrote: »

It's behind a pay wall so couldn't read it. Anywhere else? If true (I'm not doubting) it will be major.

This was reported on yesterday.
Loads of sources if you search google.

Allinall

onetimecypher wrote: »

Certain Kerry TD caught for fraud. Not like voting for your friend or double voting but getting SOMEONE ELSE to fob you in to claim expenses, while you are at home. Why no major outcry?

Why not have the balls to name her?

joeguevara

tuxy wrote: »

This was reported on yesterday.
Loads of sources if you search google.

Just read them. If it transpires that any politician knowingly claimed expenses fraudulently then there is precedent with Callely.

Is there a public procedure on how this (I mean in general) would be investigated?

joeguevara

Allinall wrote: »

Why not have the balls to name her?

Her?

high_king

joeguevara wrote: »

Her?

who cares, other than a bit of hand waving, nothing's going to come of it

Pappacharlie

Someone should make a formal complaint to the Gardai. It would have to be investigated! Is that not so? I personally think they are making fools of us all.

tuxy

high_king wrote: »

who cares, other than a bit of hand waving, nothing's going to come of it

Unfortunately such matters are often left to the electorate to sort out.
I expect Michaels popularity within his constituency to skyrocket if a big deal is made of this.
If someone gets voted in for promising to act like a "cute hoor", don't be surprised when they do just that.

joeguevara

high_king wrote: »

who cares, other than a bit of hand waving, nothing's going to come of it

Maybe maybe not. We have precedent for td going to prison for similar. It would take a politician who has never done the same to drive it.

tuxy

Pappacharlie wrote: »

Someone should make a formal complaint to the Gardai. It would have to be investigated! Is that not so? I personally think they are making fools of us all.

Is this a criminal matter, has a law been broken?
I don't believe so but I'm unsure.

high_king

tuxy wrote: »

Unfortunately such matters are often left to the electorate to sort out.
I expect Michaels popularity within his constituency to skyrocket if a big deal is made of this.
If someone gets voted in for promising to act like a "cute hoor", don't be surprised when they do just that.

don't panic, nothing surprises me any more regarding Irish politicians and what the Irish electorate vote for.

joeguevara

tuxy wrote: »

Is this a criminal matter, has a law been broken?
I don't believe so but I'm unsure.

We don't know as it is an accusation.

If public money was received by nefarious way then yes
It is a crime. Simply logging in when you weren't there isn't a crime but logging in when you weren't there to receive payment would.

Pappacharlie

If you claim expenses under false pretenses then in my view it is a criminal matters he only reason to sign in is for expense claims. If you did so in the private sector sackable offense!

Necro

Personally I'd love if this was to be the end of the likes of the Healy-Raes, Lowry and the other me-feiner simpletons.


But I have no faith in the electorate actually dealing with these morons at the ballot box. And thus the circle of idiots shall continue.

Hakuna Matata.

touts

What's all the pussy footing about. Simply say it was widely reported in the press that Michael Healy Rae somehow clocked into work at the Dail and claimed expenses as such at the same time that he was also at a Funeral in Kerry. Let the balding **** sue over that statement of fact.

Mervyn Skidmore

Necro wrote: »

Personally I'd love if this was to be the end of the likes of the Healy-Raes, Lowry and the other me-feiner simpletons.


But I have no faith in the electorate actually dealing with these morons at the ballot box. And thus the circle of idiots shall continue.

Hakuna Matata.

Not a chance. RTE investigates exposed 3 local politicians last year before the local elections, all 3 were re-elected.

Straffan1979

every nation gets the government it deserves

tuxy

Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »

Not a chance. RTE investigates exposed 3 local politicians last year before the local elections, all 3 were re-elected.

Free publicity, far more valuable than any number of election posters or house calls.

high_king

Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »

Not a chance. RTE investigates exposed 3 local politicians last year before the local elections, all 3 were re-elected.

Topped the polls in fact, and no meaningful charges, no meaningful repercussions, no meaningful sanctions.

Sad fact is, Irish people love their dodgy politicians and their white collar crimes.

Also you'd never find RTE "investigates" ( lol ) doing any sting operation on any meaningful politicians or business people, just some unconnected rural county Councillor gombeens.

Maybe we should have another 10 year tribunal . . the next generation of Irish legal "professionals" could do with millions of taxpayers money.

touts

People often say we get the politicians we deserve. Why oh why are the people of Kerry voting for these people. Well they can only vote for the ones on the ballot paper. It doesn't matter how few people vote for them as long as they get a quota of what voted. Until we get a none of the above option we'll be stuck with the 3, 4 or 5 gob****es with the highest vote.

Sure the Healy-Raes will take 2-3 seats in the next election. They won't have any serious opposition. And Kerry isn't unique. Most constituencies have extremely uninspiring ballot papers. Take Tipperary for example. On the next ballot paper we'll have Mattie McGrath, Michael Lowery and Seamus Healy. Three of the worst gombeen independents you could find. And to compound things apparently both Mattie and Lowery are each thinking of running one of their children in the hope of taking another seat. Fianna Fail are running Jackie Cahill (who may well have died since the last election. He hasn't been seen in at least 3 years) and two gender quota female candidates who honest to God have less of a public profile than the possibly dead Cahill. Fine Gael are running Kate O'Connell's sister (who also happens to be Maria Bailey's bestie) on the basis that the elite rich Dublin set need another TD and she is the only one of them who may have visited Tipperary in the past (possibly on a school tour). And then finally we have Alan Kelly. Angry Alan is probably the best of them and certainly the only one likely to get a ministerial job in the next 20 years. But he is the kind of hot headed shoot from the hip lad I wouldn't trust to look after my goldfish nevermind my country. I'm sure we'll have another 4 or 5 single issue candidates and no hopers from the likes of SF Rise, SD, STD, KFC and whatever other splinter left parties pop up over the next few months.

So let's say some of that lot get caught up in the voting scandal or the expenses scandal or whatever the next TD scandal is that comes along. What difference will it make of they are the only names on the ballot paper. 5 of them will still get elected no matter what. Now read back through that list of names and think 5 of that lot are guaranteed seats in the Dail because they are the only names on the ballot. We need a none of the above option on the ballot paper where any candidate still unelected when "none of the above" gets enough votes to fill the remaining seats is automatically eliminated and they are then barred from running in the subsequent by-election to fill the vacant seats. Do that and parties will have to start to seek out and run the sort of quality candidates we deserve to have represent us.

uck51js9zml2yt

touts wrote: »

People often say we get the politicians we deserve. Why oh why are the people of Kerry voting for these people. Well they can only vote for the ones on the ballot paper. It doesn't matter how few people vote for them as long as they get a quota of what voted. Until we get a none of the above option we'll be stuck with the 3, 4 or 5 gob****es with the highest vote.

Sure the Healy-Raes will take 2-3 seats in the next election. They won't have any serious opposition. And Kerry isn't unique. Most constituencies have extremely uninspiring ballot papers. Take Tipperary for example. On the next ballot paper we'll have Mattie McGrath, Michael Lowery and Seamus Healy. Three of the worst gombeen independents you could find. And to compound things apparently both Mattie and Lowery are each thinking of running one of their children in the hope of taking another seat. Fianna Fail are running Jackie Cahill (who may well have died since the last election. He hasn't been seen in at least 3 years) and two gender quota female candidates who honest to God have less of a public profile than the possibly dead Cahill. Fine Gael are running Kate O'Connell's sister (who also happens to be Maria Bailey's bestie) on the basis that the elite rich Dublin set need another TD and she is the only one of them who may have visited Tipperary in the past (possibly on a school tour). And then finally we have Alan Kelly. Angry Alan is probably the best of them and certainly the only one likely to get a ministerial job in the next 20 years. But he is the kind of hot headed shoot from the hip lad I wouldn't trust to look after my goldfish nevermind my country. I'm sure we'll have another 4 or 5 single issue candidates and no hopers from the likes of SF Rise, SD, STD, KFC and whatever other splinter left parties pop up over the next few months.

So let's say some of that lot get caught up in the voting scandal or the expenses scandal or whatever the next TD scandal is that comes along. What difference will it make of they are the only names on the ballot paper. 5 of them will still get elected no matter what. Now read back through that list of names and think 5 of that lot are guaranteed seats in the Dail because they are the only names on the ballot. We need a none of the above option on the ballot paper where any candidate still unelected when "none of the above" gets enough votes to fill the remaining seats is automatically eliminated and they are then barred from running in the subsequent by-election to fill the vacant seats. Do that and parties will have to start to seek out and run the sort of quality candidates we deserve to have represent us.

Or run yourself!

joseywhales

The reason they vote for them is because they know they're crooks and if they can get away with enriching themselves through fraud in Dublin then they can also get something for the constituents from Dublin too. It's completely wrong of course, people with that level of narcissism, will only ever enrich themselves and might in fact even hinder those closest to them in order to maintain control. And the poor naive fools cannot face a reality where they have been complicit in their own loss. So it will continue and the man in Dublin or Brussels will be the convenient enemy.

Patrick2010

I know two people who were sacked in the hse this year after 25 years service because one of them used the others swipe to make it appear they were in work while actually at home.

McMurphy

onetimecypher wrote: »

Certain Kerry TD caught for fraud. Not like voting for your friend or double voting but getting SOMEONE ELSE to fob you in to claim expenses, while you are at home. Why no major outcry?

This will be explained away the same way Enda Kenny's support base have tried to do for him.

Healy Rays in Dublin/Kerry at the same time.

Kenny in Zurich/Dublin, or London/Dublin at the same time.

Life of Reilly these lads have, they're milking us dry as taxpayers, and we turn a blind eye.

washman3

biko wrote: »

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

The 'fear of losing power' causes the greatest corruption of all....;)

is_that_so

Pappacharlie wrote: »

Someone should make a formal complaint to the Gardai. It would have to be investigated! Is that not so? I personally think they are making fools of us all.

Nope, rules allow them to log in all day and while the House is open. He's certainly chancing his arm but there is nothing illegal at work. Even if he were doing it dishonestly, it's not a crime and they'd just make him pay it back.

is_that_so

Patrick2010 wrote: »

I know two people who were sacked in the hse this year after 25 years service because one of them used the others swipe to make it appear they were in work while actually at home.

And quite right too but what's missing here is actual proof. The rules need to be changed on TDs being able to claim the TAA.

expectationlost

onetimecypher wrote: »

Certain Kerry TD caught for fraud. Not like voting for your friend or double voting but getting SOMEONE ELSE to fob you in to claim expenses, while you are at home. Why no major outcry?

he says he was there that morning https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2019/1104/1088615-michael-healy-rae-attendance/

GhostyMcGhost

expectationlost wrote: »

he says he was there that morning https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2019/1104/1088615-michael-healy-rae-attendance/

Surely the fob records the time as well. Would love to see the time it was recorded at

osarusan

if they can use the fob for attendance, they can use it for voting.

DeconSheridan

Tip of the Iceberg.

expectationlost

GhostyMcGhost wrote: »

Surely the fob records the time as well. Would love to see the time it was recorded at

a journalist asked and was told it was commercially sensitive information of the company whos fobbing things it is https://twitter.com/kenfoxe/status/1191089702033612801

LoughNeagh2017

Most people in there are fraudulent Irish men, if you support London rule in Ulster and orange culture you are a shame to your ancestors

McMurphy

^^^

Wha

poppers

expectationlost wrote: »

he says he was there that morning https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2019/1104/1088615-michael-healy-rae-attendance/

https://mobile.twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1191353275578228736

Gavin backtracking on his original story.

onetimecypher

Ah, they got to him already