Were all socialists spoilt as children?

Edgware

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I meant it in relation to corruption. Not their other activities.

You're the type that thinks Communism would be great if done "properly"

Cordell

China is corrupt by design, the politicians and public servants serve the party not the people. Only when they forget who they serve they get punished severely. You can't compare free democratic regimes with totalitarian ones, not even when it comes to corruption.

silverharp

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Neoclassical theory has long been debunked, it has no resemblance to our reality, humans are not rational beings, as depicted by the statement, 'rational expectations', 'equilibriums', well that's just another economic myth, and no, our world does not work in neath linearities. Our economic systems are a perfect example of 'dynamic complex systems', so you might as well chuck your market forces in the bin

A feature of a complex dynamic system is that policy makers ought not focus on micro managing because doing X will generally not lead to the Y they are expecting. A systems approach is better.
Ideally the "market forces" should induce a bit of fear on all sides and not create the appearance of one way bets for example celtic tiger house prices or only being "one pay cheque" away from homelessness.

Wanderer78

silverharp wrote: »

A feature of a complex dynamic system is that policy makers ought not focus on micro managing because doing X will generally not lead to the Y they are expecting. A systems approach is better.
Ideally the "market forces" should induce a bit of fear on all sides and not create the appearance of one way bets for example celtic tiger house prices or only being "one pay cheque" away from homelessness.

at some stage we will probably have to accept that neoclassical economics is a bust, but we re nowhere near that moment right now, and most of our institutions, including political ones, are defaulting to, 'the market knows best'. why should we be inducing fear into our societies? we ve advanced in our knowledge and understand of our world, and ourselves, we should be reducing our overall fears, but we seem to be hell bent on increasing them. this is showing in increasing instabilities in our most critical of needs, social, economically, politically, environmentally etc etc etc. how long more do we play this game, how much more damage do we have to do to these critical entities before acceptance?

nkl12xtw5goz70

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...most of our institutions, including political ones, are defaulting to, 'the market knows best'.

The current political chaos in the USA and UK might make people skeptical of a "government knows best" approach.

Plus, we know that market-driven economies flourish over the longer term, while planned economies stagnate or collapse over the longer term. There's a long and virtually indisputable track record there.

topper75

Edgware wrote: »

You're the type that thinks Communism would be great if done "properly"

Takes some arrogance to think you know more than VI Lenin who has not only read Das Kapital but translated the Communist Manifesto into Russian.:p

Wanderer78

Emery Victorious Bolt wrote:

The current political chaos in the USA and UK might make people skeptical of a "government knows best" approach.

Its clearly obvious that both government knows best and the market knows best options are deeply fundamentally flawed, and tend towards chaos, it's also important to realise that market driven ideologies such as neoliberalism/neoclassical, in which have played a fundamental part in the current state of affairs in America, and in fact globally, are clearly failing.

Emery Victorious Bolt wrote:

Plus, we know that market-driven economies flourish over the longer term, while planned economies stagnate or collapse over the longer term. There's a long and virtually indisputable track record there.

The only things we are sure of by having market driven economies is growing inequality, overall increasing worker insecurities, increasing environmental degredation, rising debts, particularly private debts, largely due to policies that cause continual asset price inflation. Maybe, just maybe, wealth doesn't exactly trickle down from such activities, maybe a large proportion of it is trickling up via rent seeking behaviour, and overall wealth extractive activities, including tax avoidance from large institutions and corporations, including financial institutions.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Its clearly obvious that both government knows best and the market knows best options are deeply fundamentally flawed, and tend towards chaos, it's also important to realise that market driven ideologies such as neoliberalism/neoclassical, in which have played a fundamental part in the current state of affairs in America, and in fact globally, are clearly failing.

From experience, I know there's no point in reasoning with this.

You will simply continue to beat the "neoliberalism is failing" drum without providing any viable alternative.

JohnnyFlash

The thing I always noticed about lefties, crusties, shinners etc in college was how little most of them cared about their appearance. Terrible dress sense and lanky hair was the norm. Tended to be real 2:2 sorts as well.

Wanderer78

Emery Victorious Bolt wrote:

You will simply continue to beat the "neoliberalism is failing" drum without providing any viable alternative.

What if we don't know an alternative, I certainly don't, and I think it would take an astonishing level of narcissism to think an individual does, due to the complexity of such a problem. Continuing as is potentially could be dangerous for us all, including the wealthy, as I personally do believe, we now have sufficient evidence to support, this ideology is a bust, but we re not reacting, we re not changing, and our most critical of needs are degrading, including our political systems and institutions, effectively undermining the democratic process.

nkl12xtw5goz70

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The thing I always noticed about lefties, crusties, shinners etc in college was how little most of them cared about their appearance. Terrible dress sense and lanky hair was the norm. Tended to be real 2:2 sorts as well.

Caring about their appearance would involve too many concessions to the neoliberal capitalist patriarchal domination of society, or some such logic.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Wanderer78 wrote: »

What if we don't know an alternative, I certainly don't...

So you openly admit that you have no alternative to the market economy — and yet you persist in attacking it regardless.

Endless moaning isn't a viable economic or political stance.

this ideology is a bust

And left-wing ideology in all its forms is far, far worse. That's why most people in the developed world have sensibly decided that a market-based economy is the least worst option.

Wanderer78

Emery Victorious Bolt wrote:

So you openly admit that you have no alternative to the market economy — and yet you persist in attacking it regardless.

So we should continue as is, and not allow criticism of our failures?

Emery Victorious Bolt wrote:

And left-wing ideology in all its forms is far, far worse. That's why most people in the developed world have sensibly decided that a market-based economy is the least worst option.

Oh there's no question left leaning ideologies are also fundamentally flawed and have failed many globally, but ignoring our current failures, will probably effect future generations badly, are we actually securing their futures by our current approaches?

Cordell

Actually free market economy does not "continue as is", but it's constantly improving as improving is inherent to its definition and this is what makes it the only sustainable one and hence the only successful approach.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Wanderer78 wrote: »

So we should continue as is, and not allow criticism of our failures?

Criticism is pointless unless accompanied by proposals for constructive change.

As one example, feminists didn't just sit around bemoaning the patriarchy. They fought for positive social and legislative change. But when you're asked what changes you want to implement, you don't have anything to offer.

You complain endlessly that capitalist ideology is a "bust" while acknowledging that the alternatives are also "fundamentally flawed."

So what's the point? Let's just sit around saying that everything is going to hell in a handbasket, and no matter what we do, we're screwed?

facehugger99

Wanderer78 wrote: »

What if we don't know an alternative, I certainly don't,

Anyone who espouses such nonsense can be safely ignored I find.

Luckily for you, you'll have countless options come the election of political parties that will criticise everything without bothering to propose an alternative.

There's real lack of intellectualism underpinning such parties and polices and it needs to be called out more.

Junkyard Tom

Cordell wrote: »

Actually free market economy does not "continue as is", but it's constantly improving as improving is inherent to its definition and this is what makes it the only sustainable one and hence the only successful approach.

What free market economy are you speaking of?

Edgware

Edgware wrote: »

You're the type that thinks Communism would be great if done "properly"

You're the type who knows nothing but assumes everything.

I've lived in Russia for one year and China for almost 11 years now. I've also been to Cuba, Vietnam, and North Korea. What personal experience of communism have you experienced? Have you ever seen the effects of communism on a country and people? Fact is, there's nothing in any of my posts ever on boards to suggest that I like communism in any format, actually implemented or otherwise.

Before making assumptions, perhaps get some evidence to support your ignorant opinion.

noodler

realitykeeper wrote: »

Children who grow up thinking the world owes them a living tend to be spoit.

Socialists also tend to think this way, hence the question, were socialists spoilt as children? I am not saying they were necessarily because I think an adult who displays behaviour similar to a spoilt brat were I suspect raised by permissive parents. This is a particular parenting style were kids basically do what they want without boundaries and often they get what they want if the parent is also over indulgent.

I see this spoilt type of adult everyday in my line of work. Sometimes they drink alcohol when they really shouldn`t and they fail to take instruction even when they are sober (which they are most of the time).

What should we as a nation do to stamp out spoilt behaviour? Do all new parents need to be thought the authoritative parenting method? Do we need bigger prisons and forced labor camps for those who are already grown up but are spoilt and in need of reforming? Spoilt people gravitate to a life of crime so discipline must be rigorous and immediate in my opinion.

This system of waiting until they have a lot of offenses committed before they are incarcerated, simply won`t do.

What about people who don't need a hand from the State but still prefer a more equitable resdistribiton of resources?

Cordell

klaz, you experienced failed socialism and its aftermath in those countries. You never experienced communism because it never existed anywhere, as it needs as a prerequisite a successful socialist state

Cordell

Cordell wrote: »

China is corrupt by design, the politicians and public servants serve the party not the people. Only when they forget who they serve they get punished severely. You can't compare free democratic regimes with totalitarian ones, not even when it comes to corruption.

China is corrupt through culture and history. Many of their cultural mechanisms of social interaction rest on degrees of corruption. From the passing of gifts to the idea of "face" (respect).

However, I can laugh when I see comparisons because corruption exists in heavy amounts in many democratic countries. The US political arena has been extremely corrupt since it's creation with it's links to industrialists and in more recent time, lobbying. Italy with the degree of influence that the Mafia has, especially in the south of the country. I can even point to Irish politicians who slept with the bankers and corporations which increased the effects of the banking crash...

No doubt there's some excuse for the corruption that democracies often tolerate in their elected officials, that makes their behavior less offensive than what happens in China. IF we're only talking about corruption, that is...

Cordell

Cordell wrote: »

klaz, you experienced failed socialism and its aftermath in those countries. You never experienced communism because it never existed anywhere, as it needs as a prerequisite a successful socialist state

Well, that's handy... Then I've experienced eastern socialism, and maoism. And China is Asian socialism with a Capitalist backbone, and a materialistic culture..

realitykeeper

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Will you say that when you are earning €5.00 an hour?

Absolutely, and a lot less if possible. The 5 euro is just a number and it will go a lot further if everyone had less to spend. Why do you think they have to constantly up the minimum wage? The reason is because increasing the minimum wage doesn`t work in the medium/long term so they keep pushing for another fix.

By getting rid of the minimum wage, the benefits are boundless. Yesterday I read an article about apples rotting in orchards over in England because there were no migrants to pick the fruit. We don`t need migrants, we need to get rid of the minimum wage so that people will be happy to pick fruit for a few cent an hour and if that happens, the housing crises can be solved because property prices will fall by 95%.

I know none of this will be allowed to happen because politicians and central bankers prefer to perpetually increase the money supply.

realitykeeper

realitykeeper wrote: »

By getting rid of the minimum wage, the benefits are boundless. Yesterday I read an article about apples rotting in orchards over in England because there were no migrants to pick the fruit. We don`t need migrants, we need to get rid of the minimum wage so that people will be happy to pick fruit for a few cent an hour and if that happens, the housing crises can be solved because property prices will fall by 95%.

They can start engraving your name on the 2020 Nobel Prize for Economics.

Wanderer78

Emery Victorious Bolt wrote: »

Criticism is pointless unless accompanied by proposals for constructive change.

As one example, feminists didn't just sit around bemoaning the patriarchy. They fought for positive social and legislative change. But when you're asked what changes you want to implement, you don't have anything to offer.

You complain endlessly that capitalist ideology is a "bust" while acknowledging that the alternatives are also "fundamentally flawed."

So what's the point? Let's just sit around saying that everything is going to hell in a handbasket, and no matter what we do, we're screwed?

no i dont, capitalism is one of the most incredible creations of mankind, truly liberating our species, but i am a strong critic of our most predominate form of capitalism, i.e. neoliberalism and its accompanied economic theory, neoclassical theory, please do keep up

no not at all, these ideologies didnt just fall out of the sky, we created them, so theres nothing wrong with creating new ones, but first we must accept our current ideologies short comings, we havent done this yet, its business as usual

theres plenty of ideas out there on how we might change things, particularly on the left, and id imagine in more conservative thinking also, but if we dont make radical changes soon, this has the potential to lead us to dangerous places

FTA69

I’m a communist and I was raised in a single parent with very little. My mother worked hard all of her life and since my mid-teens I worked in jobs, moved to London at 19 and broke my bollocks doing all sorts of jobs; out myself through college and am now working in a job I like doing.

People who grew up cosseted with everything handed to them tend more to be old-school snobbish conservatives if anything.

realitykeeper

Wanderer78 wrote: »

capitalism is one of the most incredible creations of mankind, truly liberating our species, but i am a strong critic of our most predominate form of capitalism, i.e. neoliberalism and its accompanied economic theory, neoclassical theory

I think the reason this caught on was not because capitalists thought neoliberalism was better than old fashioned capitalism but because socialism was the only sell-able alternative. Since anything is better than socialism, this inherently unsustainable ideology took hold and it is not capitalism, it just facilitates the survival of capitalism for a limited period.

BalcombeSt4

realitykeeper wrote: »

Children who grow up thinking the world owes them a living tend to be spoit.

Socialists also tend to think this way, hence the question, were socialists spoilt as children? I am not saying they were necessarily because I think an adult who displays behaviour similar to a spoilt brat were I suspect raised by permissive parents. This is a particular parenting style were kids basically do what they want without boundaries and often they get what they want if the parent is also over indulgent.

I see this spoilt type of adult everyday in my line of work. Sometimes they drink alcohol when they really shouldn`t and they fail to take instruction even when they are sober (which they are most of the time).

What should we as a nation do to stamp out spoilt behaviour? Do all new parents need to be thought the authoritative parenting method? Do we need bigger prisons and forced labor camps for those who are already grown up but are spoilt and in need of reforming? Spoilt people gravitate to a life of crime so discipline must be rigorous and immediate in my opinion.

This system of waiting until they have a lot of offenses committed before they are incarcerated, simply won`t do.

Well seeing as how most of them grew up in piss poor slums & ghettos in Africa, Latin America, South Asia & Russia I highly doubt it.

BalcombeSt4

FTA69 wrote: »

I’m a communist and I was raised in a single parent with very little. My mother worked hard all of her life and since my mid-teens I worked in jobs, moved to London at 19 and broke my bollocks doing all sorts of jobs; out myself through college and am now working in a job I like doing.

People who grew up cosseted with everything handed to them tend more to be old-school snobbish conservatives if anything.

James Connolly who might be Ireland's most be famous ever Socialist had rough bloody childhood as well, raised in slums in Edinburugh having to shovel horse ****e of the streets with little formal education & pretty much thought himself to be one of the leading Marxist theorists of his day is a stunning success in itself.

To think people "choose" to live this way is the height of backwards, right-wing ignorance.

amadangomor

realitykeeper wrote: »

I think the reason this caught on was not because capitalists thought neoliberalism was better than old fashioned capitalism but because socialism was the only sell-able alternative. Since anything is better than socialism, this inherently unsustainable ideology took hold and it is not capitalism, it just facilitates the survival of capitalism for a limited period.

Ireland is different though. Here we have upper middle class lads getting elected as far left wing socialists but don't do Jack **** for the working man and instead look for more hand outs for the non working man.