Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Letwin_Larry

robinph wrote: »

If you were a leave voter reading that then all you are going to be seeing is that Tusk said something and therefore it must be terrible so not really sure that is the target audience for his statement. As proven by the fact that you think what he said is going to help the cause of Brexit.

Whereas someone else will see that there are people in the EU who still hope that the rest of the UK will come to their senses and call the whole mad thing off, and that the remainers shouldn't give up hope yet. They are the intended audience.

He's not making those comments thinking that he'll be able to change the mind of Farage.

no i doubt he's likely to have much effect one way or the other on Johnson, Swinson or Corbyn either.
you may not realise this but the GE will be won or lost in those swing/marginal consitiencies, where there is a proportion of undecided voters.

By alienating those crucial voters, Tusk is effectively shooting himself in the foot. It's not a simple matter of influencing party leaders. the campaign is far more nuanced and delicate than that.

lawred2

stefanovich wrote: »

Every voter has a duty to understand what they are voting for. The ballots were cast. This is the result.

So curious how the Irish have turned. I remember the anger when Lisbon treaty was forced upon us. I question the result too. Shenanigans!

Such pious (and disingenuous) twaddle

Had it been the other way - you'd never make such a statement

listermint

lawred2 wrote: »

Such pious (and disingenuous) twaddle

Had it been the other way - you'd never make such a statement

Every voter had he onus to understand what they were voting for.... Yet the same poster says we had the Lisbon treaty forced upon us.



Laughable at every turn

Christy42

stefanovich wrote: »

Generally when a referendum is called it is not supposed to be a repeat affair. How many times do we repeat? 3 is fair I suppose?

The only reason this has not concluded sooner is because the remainers have used every tactic in the book to block it because they do not like the result.

They wanted to avoid a general election because they know Parliament is not representative of the people they are supposed to represent.

This is banana republic style politics. Shameful.

Unless you want a complete overhaul of the UK system parliment is sovereign. People knew who they were voting for and had a duty to find out (as you point out about the referendum).

The ERG also voted against May's deal? Why blame just the remainers? Leavers have also blocked the UK from leaving. My own thoughts would be that the circumstances have changed. Are the British people never allowed change their mind?

(And I would like to preempt the response by saying I would be more than happy to rerun abortion/SSM if there is enough support, I voted in the winning direction both times and would do so again but I respect the right of a Nation to change its mind)

Generally when a referendum is called the effect of both results on the laws of a country are meant to be known. It was a terrible referendum for many reasons.

CelticRambler

stefanovich wrote: »

The only reason this has not concluded sooner is because the remainers have used every tactic in the book to block it because they do not like the result.

The only reason? Hard to believe that, in chapter xii of this thread we're still hearing this nonsense. :rolleyes:

The people voted to leave the EU. Parliament voted to trigger Art.50 and gave a mandate to the then PM to take the UK out of the EU. The WA brought back to Parliament was rejected three times because Leavers could not agree on what kind of Brexit they wanted. Theresa May was replaced with Boris Johnson, who eventually brought a revised WA back to Parliament, one that was given reluctant approval but moved one step closer to ratification. Then the Leave-supporting Prime Minister withdrew it and called for an election instead - the third general election to be held within five years, despite the provisions of the FTPA supposedly protecting government (and the electorate) from this kind of instability.

And yet somehow Remainers and the EU are responsible for all this dissent and u-turning by the Leavers?

robinph

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

no i doubt he's likely to have much effect one way or the other on Johnson, Swinson or Corbyn either.
you may not realise this but the GE will be won or lost in those swing/marginal consitiencies, where there is a proportion of undecided voters.

By alienating those crucial voters, Tusk is effectively shooting himself in the foot. It's not a simple matter of influencing party leaders. the campaign is far more nuanced and delicate than that.

Why are you assuming that these swing voters are all dedicated to the leave cause and so would be turned off by the comments of Tusk? For every one person who you think that would be alienated by his comments there is another who isn't.

Will his comments make the remainer more likely to turn out to vote for a remain party tactically, or a leaver to turn out to vote for a leave party? He doesn't really care if he pisses of a few leavers who were going to vote leave anyway, but if he convinces a few remainers that there is still hope and a reason for them to get out and vote then he's done what he wanted.

stefanovich

SNIP. Do not drag this thread off topic.

Ihatewhahabies

Nody wrote: »

Once again you're reading things the wrong way and assuming you can mind read everyone who disagrees with you. You see I'm 110% behind Farage on his EU deal position; I would love UK to leave on the hardest possible Brexit without a deal. The difference being why; in Farage's case because that's what he's paid to do while in my case it's to shut up the Brexiteers the fastest way possible by crashing their mirage into a concrete wall of reality. Once the Brexit dreams come crashing down like the fall out of Hiroshima bomb it will be to the UK economy (in case of a hard crash out scenario) we can start having an actual mature factual discussion; until then it's going to be vague statements and mumbled bendy banana laws until the cows come home.

IMO there will never have a mature discussion on Brexit with the vast majority of the tories. Conservatives such as Ian duncan Smith, JRMoog etc have swallowed the koolaid. They will never change their opinions as they are financially secure etc. Even if Brexit was the hardest possible most such tories will not get voted out as they occupy safe conservative seats.

In regards to Farage I am so disappointed as his actions are more anti labour not pro brexit. He has stayed loyal to his class. Will there be blowback here. I hope so. But Farage will swan into Fox studios to entertain the "deplorables" with his populist rants.

ancapailldorcha

The topic of this thread is Brexit, not the Lisbon treaty referendum of 2011. A post has been edited and another deleted.

CelticRambler

Ihatewhahabies wrote: »

IMO there will never have a mature discussion on Brexit with the vast majority of the tories. Conservatives such as Ian duncan Smith, JRMoog etc have swallowed the koolaid. They will never change their opinions as they are financially secure etc.

Not just wealthy Tories, though. Sky were doing election interviews with Labour voters in Dennis Skinner's constituency yesterday and they'd obviously been drinking the same Koolaid. They weren't asked how they inform themselves, but they came out with all the same Brexit bullet points as stefanovich, eskimohunt, letwin_larry, etc. Now they're using the fact that Britain is still in the EU as a reason to not vote Labour. Three years after the referendum, they obviously haven't cottoned on to the fact that cutting ties with a long-term trading partner is a complex process and shouldn't be done in a rush.

Ihatewhahabies

My only hope for labour is that Corbyn out performs vis a vis polls (which in my view are designed to under count labour support)

Letwin_Larry

robinph wrote: »

Why are you assuming that these swing voters are all dedicated to the leave cause and so would be turned off by the comments of Tusk? For every one person who you think that would be alienated by his comments there is another who isn't.

Will his comments make the remainer more likely to turn out to vote for a remain party tactically, or a leaver to turn out to vote for a leave party? He doesn't really care if he pisses of a few leavers who were going to vote leave anyway, but if he convinces a few remainers that there is still hope and a reason for them to get out and vote then he's done what he wanted.

you are missing the point entirely.


there are many Leave voters who may be having 2nd thoughts on Brexit, the possible effects on the economy, jobs etc. etc.
by meddling in the GE Tusk is imo likely to drive those wavering (Leave) voters back into Tory/Brexit party arms. EU interference strikes at the core of their dislike of the EU.
Boris, Nigel etc. just have to say "look we told you so! typical EU interference in UK internal affairs. that's why we must get Brexit done."
tusk thinks he's smart, but imo he is an idiot, but a useful idiot for Leavers.

Remainer voters do need convincing of the downsides of Brexit, so tusk's meddling will have little/no effect on them. they will be voting Lib Dem/Lab regardless what he says.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The topic of this thread is Brexit, not the Lisbon treaty referendum of 2011. A post has been edited and another deleted.

Posts deleted and sanction issued.

CelticRambler

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

there are many Leave voters who may be having 2nd thoughts on Brexit, the possible effects on the economy, jobs etc. etc.
by meddling in the GE Tusk is imo likely to drive those wavering (Leave) voters back into Tory/Brexit party arms. EU interference strikes at the core of their dislike of the EU.

Are you seriously trying to argue that a Leave voter, who has taken the time to think about the effect of Brexit on the future economy, who has engaged their brain enough to critically evaluate the Johnson-Cummings-Farage propaganda and begun to question it, would suddenly reject their own conclusions on the back of a throw-away comment by some foreigner?

We on the Brexit-is-a-stupid-idea side of the equation are often accused of treating Leavers as idiots. Aren't you doing exactly the same now?

robinph

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

you are missing the point entirely.


there are many Leave voters who may be having 2nd thoughts on Brexit, the possible effects on the economy, jobs etc. etc.
by meddling in the GE Tusk is imo likely to drive those wavering (Leave) voters back into Tory/Brexit party arms. EU interference strikes at the core of their dislike of the EU.
Boris, Nigel etc. just have to say "look we told you so! typical EU interference in UK internal affairs. that's why we must get Brexit done."
tusk thinks he's smart, but imo he is an idiot, but a useful idiot for Leavers.

Remainer voters do need convincing of the downsides of Brexit, so tusk's meddling will have little/no effect on them. they will be voting Lib Dem/Lab regardless what he says.

Think it is you that is missing the point.

If someone is sitting on the fence then by definition they could decide to go either way and they could have climbed onto that fence from either direction.

Why do you believe that it is only potential leavers who are wavering? There are likely to be just as many bored potential remainers sat on that fence thinking that they just want it over with, brexit fanatics have worn them down and they are now just want the horror to be over with and the fabled unicorns to arrive. After all if these unicorns have been spoken of so much for the last three + years there might just be something in it.

Why can't Tusks message be to them to tell them to hang in there and keep up the faith in brexit being cancelled.

RobMc59

CelticRambler wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to argue that a Leave voter, who has taken the time to think about the effect of Brexit on the future economy, who has engaged their brain enough to critically evaluate the Johnson-Cummings-Farage propaganda and begun to question it, would suddenly reject their own conclusions on the back of a throw-away comment by some foreigner?

We on the Brexit-is-a-stupid-idea side of the equation are often accused of treating Leavers as idiots. Aren't you doing exactly the same now?

Unfortunately, there really are a lot if idiots who voted for Brexit-I see and speak to them daily, they still want their continental holidays though and moan about the weak pound...

Excellent election speech from Johnson yesterday.

His infectious enthusiasm and optimism in the future of the UK from 2020; his closing of this (first) gloomy chapter in Brexit history; and his doing away with the grim misery and double referendum proposed by the Labour Party; and the elimination of Marxist-Scottish Nationalist Government, is what will propel the Conservative Party to majority success.

Dytalus

Deleted User wrote: »

and the elimination of Marxist-Scottish Nationalist Government

Um...what? By what metric are the SNP marxist?

BonnieSituation

Deleted User wrote: »

Excellent election speech from Johnson yesterday.

His infectious enthusiasm and optimism in the future of the UK from 2020; his closing of this (first) gloomy chapter in Brexit history; and his doing away with the grim misery and double referendum proposed by the Labour Party; and the elimination of Marxist-Scottish Nationalist Government, is what will propel the Conservative Party to majority success.

What is this?


Absolute bullplop of the highest order!

Tacitus Kilgore

Deleted User wrote: »

Excellent election speech from Johnson yesterday.

His infectious enthusiasm and optimism in the future of the UK from 2020; his closing of this (first) gloomy chapter in Brexit history; and his doing away with the grim misery and double referendum proposed by the Labour Party; and the elimination of Marxist-Scottish Nationalist Government, is what will propel the Conservative Party to majority success.

:pac: SNP Marxist :pac:



Alternative last line - is what will fast-track the UK to becoming The United Countries of England & Wales.

Dytalus

Dytalus wrote: »

Um...what? By what metric are the SNP marxist?

Labour-SNP is what I mean when I say Marxist-Scottish Nationalist Goverment.

A Johnson Administration eliminates that very real and frightening possibility.

lawred2

Deleted User wrote: »

Labour-SNP is what I mean when I say Marxist-Scottish Nationalist Goverment.

A Johnson Administration eliminates that very real and frightening possibility.

yeah terrifying altogether

for goodness sake - would you ever stop engaging in soundbytes and hyperbole

josip

Deleted User wrote: »

Excellent election speech from Johnson yesterday.

His infectious enthusiasm and optimism in the future of the UK from 2020; his closing of this (first) gloomy chapter in Brexit history; and his doing away with the grim misery and double referendum proposed by the Labour Party; and the elimination of Marxist-Scottish Nationalist Government, is what will propel the Conservative Party to majority success.

This sounds more like an electioneering slogan with as many buzzwords as possible squeezed in, than a reasoned argument.


Why do you call the SNP Marxist?

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

Excellent election speech from Johnson yesterday.

Are you referring to the same one I heard - the one in the electric taxi factory? The one in which he spoke about the pot-noodle Brexit, the oven-ready Brexit, the minestrone Brexit? The one where he promised the audience that he'd get Brexit done by 31st January (cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die-in-a-ditch). The one in which he said "Vote for me because I'm not Jeremy Corbyn" and promptly repeated several lies and untruths about both his own and Corbyn's provisional manifestos?

You have a strange definition of "excellent" ... :P

lawred2

lawred2 wrote: »

yeah terrifying altogether

for goodness sake - would you ever stop engaging in soundbytes and hyperbole

There's nothing hyperbolic about a potential Labour government that has sided with the enemies of the UK; that wishes to hold a second referendum of Remain v Remain Minus and deepen divisions within the populace; that power is willing to be attained at the cost of a Second Independence referendum in Scotland; that a re-nationalization program coupled with hard-left socialist policies that target business and prospective foreign inward investment; that wishes to impose layers of regulation to stymie the economic growth fostered under Tory rule; of having Diane Abbott as Home Secretary; among many other reasons why, yes, a Labour-SNP government would only destroy the economy, destroy the UK structure, and destroy the international foreign policy standing held by former UK governments - including by viewing the US as a hostile force vital to NATO; and opposing the use of Trident.

That's not hyperbole; that may actually happen - and it shouldn't.

robinph

Deleted User wrote: »

Labour-SNP is what I mean when I say Marxist-Scottish Nationalist Goverment.

A Johnson Administration eliminates that very real and frightening possibility.

However terrifying people may think Corbyn is, if he gets in and is so terrible then he'll be gone again within 5 years in the worst case scenario. More likely well before that as the rest of the party or parliament would remove him long before.

The alternative is Johnson gets in and the UK ends up with the no-deal Brexit and there is absolutely no way to fix that or reverse the decision once it's been done.

Between a choice of a couple of years of the terrifying Corbyn, or the eternity of no-deal Brexit it really shouldn't be that tricky a choice. Short term pain in order to prevent long term disaster.

robinph

robinph wrote: »

However terrifying people may think Corbyn is, if he gets in and is so terrible then he'll be gone again within 5 years in the worst case scenario. More likely well before that as the rest of the party or parliament would remove him long before.

Given the Labour membership, I would imagine that Corbyn would only be replaced with another form of Corbyn, who believes in the same kind of politics.

I can't see things returning to Blair-like days of centre-left politics, though I could be wrong.

Perhaps when the Brexit wave subsides, the Liberal Democrats may grow to become the new centre-left party in British politics, with Corbyn et al. / Labour becoming more and more insignificant.

lawred2

Deleted User wrote: »

There's nothing hyperbolic about a potential Labour government that has sided with the enemies of the UK; that wishes to hold a second referendum of Remain v Remain Minus and deepen divisions within the populace; that power is willing to be attained at the cost of a Second Independence referendum in Scotland; that a re-nationalization program coupled with hard-left socialist policies that target business and prospective foreign inward investment; that wishes to impose layers of regulation to stymie the economic growth fostered under Tory rule; of having Diane Abbott as Home Secretary; among many other reasons why, yes, a Labour-SNP government would only destroy the economy, destroy the UK structure, and destroy the international foreign policy standing of previous UK governments.

That's not hyperbole; that may actually happen - and it shouldn't.

Do you know what is actually happening? And not something that 'may' happen in the minds of some who like to howl at the moon..

Brexit.

Brexit is happening

A most self destructive social and economic act.

Entirely orchestrated by the Conservative Party - the supposed guardians of the economy, the fiscally prudent etc etc

Baffles me that anyone would feel free to level any sort of accusation of potential economic mismanagement at any other party in the UK while blithely ignoring the actual and current program of self sabotage that the Conservatives are currently engaged in.

The Conservatives have lost the economic argument. They have no economic argument. They have no economic high ground.

RobMc59

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's nothing hyperbolic about a potential Labour government that has sided with the enemies of the UK; that wishes to hold a second referendum of Remain v Remain Minus and deepen divisions within the populace; that power is willing to be attained at the cost of a Second Independence referendum in Scotland; that a re-nationalization program coupled with hard-left socialist policies that target business and prospective foreign inward investment; that wishes to impose layers of regulation to stymie the economic growth fostered under Tory rule; of having Diane Abbott as Home Secretary; among many other reasons why, yes, a Labour-SNP government would only destroy the economy, destroy the UK structure, and destroy the international foreign policy standing held by former UK governments - including by viewing the US as a hostile force vital to NATO; and opposing the use of Trident.

That's not hyperbole; that may actually happen - and it shouldn't.

Essential services, the NHS,local government are being starved of funds, food banks are on the rise and the poor are getting poorer, meanwhile Johnson,rees mogg and chums couldn't give a toss-quite how you see a potential change to a more caring government as a disaster is mind boggling.

robinph

Deleted User wrote: »

Given the Labour membership, I would imagine that Corbyn would only be replaced with another form of Corbyn, who believes in the same kind of politics.

I can't see things returning to Blair-like days of centre-left politics, though I could be wrong.

Perhaps when the Brexit wave subsides, the Liberal Democrats may grow to become the new centre-left party in British politics, with Corbyn et al. / Labour becoming more and more insignificant.

And the only way to allow the Brexit wave to subside is to have a second referendum with a choice between something that exists and and actual plan for a brexit as opposed to unicorns. "Getting brexit done" does nothing to stop the brexit wave, it just means it drags on for decades longer as the country tries to recover.