The Joe Schmidt era.

Bob Harris

3 Six nations, a few wins over NZ and ranked nº1 for a while.

However ultimately is his era a failure? Winning the 6 nations was nothing we hadn't done before. The wins over NZ while welcome were really competitive friendlies. Our ranking has improved but there are no prizes for that.

What we really wanted to do is progress in the WC essentially an 8-10 team tournament and in both attempts under Joe Schmidt we have been poor having shipped hammerings in the two quarter finals. We have looked out of sorts for the whole campaign this year, warm up and tournament. Seeing as that was our main objective his tenure has been a failure and we are really no further along the road than we were when he arrived. If he hadn't said he was already leaving he'd be fired.

The Rape of Lucretia

Statement from Joe :

"To our good and loyal followers : After pondering deeply the general trends of the World Cup and the actual conditions obtaining in our squad today, we have decided to effect a settlement of the present situation by resorting to an extraordinary measure.

We have ordered our Team Management to communicate to the Team Managements of New Zeland, England, and South Africa, that our squad accepts the provisions of their joint declaration.

To strive for the common prosperity and happiness of all nations as well as the security and well-being of our subjects is the solemn obligation which has been handed down by our imperial ancestors and which we lay close to the heart.

Indeed, we launched our world cup campaign out of our sincere desire to insure Ireland's rugby success.

But now the campaign has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone - the gallant fighting of our forwards and backs, the diligence and assiduity of out servants of the squad, and the devoted service of our 6,000,000 people - the World Cup situation has developed not necessarily to Ireland's advantage, while the general trends of the tournament have all turned against her interest.

We cannot but express the deepest sense of regret to our supporters, who have consistently cooperated with the squad toward the emancipation of Irish rugby.

Let the entire nation continue as one family from generation to generation, ever firm in its faith of the imperishableness of its divine land, and mindful of its heavy burden of responsibilities, and the long road before it. Unite your total strength to be devoted to the construction for the future. Cultivate the ways of rectitude, nobility of spirit, and work with resolution so that you may enhance the innate glory of Irish rugby and keep pace with the progress of the world."

Steve

Joe is gone now,

Gone but never forgotten.

Long live Joe.

Donnielighto

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Statement from Joe :

"To our good and loyal followers : ...."

Emperor Hirohito ww2 if anyone is wondering.

cson

Bob Harris wrote: »

3 Six nations, a few wins over NZ and ranked nº1 for a while.


...

However ultimately is his era a failure?

SMH. :rolleyes:

The most successful coach in the history of Irish Rugby is a failure? Ok.

Sanjuro

Bob Harris wrote: »

However ultimately is his era a failure?

No. /thread

His time with Ireland has obviously been a success but there's no doubt Joe had his blind spots. He was far too trusting of some players and was probably too expectant of one last hurrah from a few of them which obviously didn't arrive.

Time now for a clean break, have a clear out and let Farrell build his own team.

Nothing but gratitude and respect from me for Joe's time with Ireland (and Leinster).

jr86

Peaks and troughs

Some very good seasons, with 2018 the obvious highlight, and some superb individual results and performances like NZ, France in 2015 WC, England 2017 to name 3. Pity most of them have been isolated and one grand slam return could be looked at as a tad disappointing in 6 seasons - where France are at their lowest ebb in decades, Scotland are Scotland and Italy are hopeless. That said relative to previous coaches of course he has achieved plenty

However at the real pinnacle - its been two failure world cup campaigns. Japan could be looked at as arguably our worst result since the 90s - if not ever, in the circumstances.

Overall some great days out but still we never really generated any real winning consistency bar in 2018.

MrMusician18

cson wrote: »

SMH. :rolleyes:

The most successful coach in the history of Irish Rugby is a failure? Ok.

Well it ended in failure

Shefwedfan

Thanks Joe from a Leinster and Irish supporter......

The best coach Ireland has seen at both club and International level....till now:-) hope someone does replace you in the future

mr_edge_to_you

On the whole, what he has achieved is very impressive and we've had more great days with Lenister and Ireland than we've had bad. I had the pleasure of briefly meeting him after a corporate event and he was an absolute gentleman. By all accounts he was incredibly generous with his time with rugby clubs around the country too. I wish him and his family the very best on the next chapter of their lives.

Unfortunately, today was a culmination of 12 months of disappointing performances. I firmly believe that RWC 2019 will go down as an epic failure in the IRFU. Joe had more support and resources at his disposal than any other Irish coach. Whatever he wanted he got, with players being moved around the provinces and others being kept in Ireland rather than go to France or UK. He also had more control over the players than any other international coach. I imagine when he does his own review he'll probably arrive at the conclusion that he wasn't ruthless enough with certain players and realise that he didnt drive the team forward from 2019. I'm sure he sets high standards for himself too!

Be interesting to see what he does next!

snotboogie

Similar to O'Sullivan and Kidney he built on the success of his predecessors and rode the rising wave of Irish rugby pretty well. He has by a mile the best 6 nations record but it has to be noted that the French have been pathetic during his time in charge, which is an enormous help. Its not like he dominated the tournament either, we shared the spoils with Wales and England. Its easy to compare his 6 nations record to other Irish coaches but he has had by a mile the best squad at his disposal.

Schmidts November and summer test record is excellent but I think we are done overreacting to tests. His test record against the All Blacks is of particular note though.

His World Cup record is poor, 3 and 3 against competitive opposition and at that they were a long way from the 6 toughest teams he could have faced, we were favorites in 5 of the 6 of those matches. Not a good return on the biggest stage. The two biggest games of his tenure were spankings where we shipped 40+ points and he presided over probably the worst loss in Irish rugby history when we fell apart against Japan, the bookies had us at 1/14.....

Joe's style of play was not easy on the eye and he failed to adapt when it stopped working. He was conservative and overly loyal in selections.

I think he was a good but not great national coach. He inherited a uniquely talanted and deep Irish rugby squad and with them he over achieved in the 6 nations and test games and underachieved at the World Cup. Overall its a 7.5/10 tenure, he achieved more than any other Irish coach but with the squad and time afforded to him any less than EOS and Kidney would have been a failure. Its worth noting that Kidney had achieved more than any other Irish coach when he left the job (6 Nations Grand Slam, WC group stage sweep including a win vs a former Champion, all firsts for Irish rugby) and he had the boot firmly kicked up his hole and reputation dragged through the mud as he went out the door. With the context of the rapidly expanding popularity of rugby in Ireland and the increasing surplus of talented players this affords, being the most successful Irish coach ever is not as impressive as it sounds.

Dubinusa

I think his tenure is a failure. There were highs, of course, but this rwc was troubling. His strict style of play bit us in the ass. Our predictable play and the massive dependence on Murray and Sexton is highlighted by out form when these lads struggle.
6nations I'd the bread and butter and is vital, but I think it's important to blood new players during the tournament. The likes of POM and Rk should be dropped. Maybe Earl's too!
I reckon that blooding a couple of new lads will be vital going forward.

Ash.J.Williams

The joe era was great , thanks joe

One thing I’ve noticed is our Horrible media that exploit a muppet fair weather fan base by over celebrating success while opponents are rebuilding or starting a new cycle and treating wins over a nz on the lash like World Cup wins, and turning our “world no.1 “statistic built on past results as an indication of future success, then turning on the team and twisting the knife when things don’t go to plan.

The media coverage was akin to Stuart Lee’s Richard Hammond in his top gear joke, a weak midget pointing and laughing behind his larger friend.

noodler

Most successful period ever.

Incredible achievements.

Only in Ireland could it even be a debate ( and i use the term lightly).

The Rape of Lucretia

snotboogie wrote: »

but he has had by a mile the best squad at his disposal.

This is true. But also a strong reason for optimism. The rich vein are the handful of Leinster key schools and the good job the Leinster academy plays in mining it. Its the true glory of Irish rugby.

snotboogie

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This is true. But also a strong reason for optimism. The rich vein are the handful of Leinster key schools and the good job the Leinster academy plays in mining it. Its the true glory of Irish rugby.

We need more than a handful to compete with what we saw today. Munster is worse, aside from Pres, is there any school in Munster consistently producing players anymore?

Invisibleman

It was an obvious mistake to give his notice before the tournament. Amateur really

The Rape of Lucretia

snotboogie wrote: »

We need more than a handful to compete with what we saw today. Munster is worse, aside from Pres, is there any school in Munster consistently producing players anymore?

Not really. But their role is key though in the role of imports (Leinster shouldnt be taking them really), and for surplus Leinster prospects, and of course will always contribute a few local players. Its important they are a high level performing team on the Euro scene to give players the best level rugby we can.

shootermacg

Good luck to Joe! He did an amazing job with the players he had to work with. Glad Rory got a good send off from the fans.

It's not great to go out with a loss, but they went out against a cracking team in cracking form.

The Rape of Lucretia

We gave to stop trying to make emotional long serving hooker captains retiring after world cup defeats happen.

shootermacg

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think his tenure is a failure. There were highs, of course, but this rwc was troubling. His strict style of play bit us in the ass. Our predictable play and the massive dependence on Murray and Sexton is highlighted by out form when these lads struggle.
6nations I'd the bread and butter and is vital, but I think it's important to blood new players during the tournament. The likes of POM and Rk should be dropped. Maybe Earl's too!
I reckon that blooding a couple of new lads will be vital going forward.

You really need to look up a definition of the word failure. How you can even use that word to describe the tenure of the greatest coach Leinster and Ireland have ever had.

He took a team of average players, sparsely speckled with good ones, to number one in the world. I would argue that he's probably done more than any other coach could have given the same resources.

Amprodude

shootermacg wrote: »

He took a team of average players, sparsely speckled with good ones, to number one in the world. .

Ireland were never number 1 realistically. Lets not fool ourselves here.

The Rape of Lucretia

Amprodude wrote: »

Ireland were never number 1 realistically. Lets not fool ourselves here.

Yerra, grandslam champions and beating the ABs, and a away series win against Aus, in 2018, made a good claim to be #1. On the rankings it wasnt, but, as we saw in the lead in to the WC when we were #1, not a lot of weight can be put on that. So for 2018, the claim of being #1, realistically, is strong.
Hail Joe.

BBDBB

We were number 1

It was brief, all too brief but there was a time we were the best team out there, beating all around us, but let’s be clear, that was always the exception not the rule

Those of us who remember the days when a triple crown was a pipe dream will be grateful for the progress made, for the joys of victory made by Eddie, Deccie and now Joe. The disappointment we feel is because of the expectations that were raised by province and country success and just because Joes retiring (I still think he will be back to coach the All Blacks in a few years) doesn’t mean it ends. We have a good legacy coming through and That’s partly down to Joe for his coaching, his standards and his demands

Amprodude

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yerra, grandslam champions and beating the ABs, and a away series win against Aus, in 2018, made a good claim to be #1. On the rankings it wasnt, but, as we saw in the lead in to the WC when we were #1, not a lot of weight can be put on that. So for 2018, the claim of being #1, realistically, is strong.
Hail Joe.

Well we are definitely not number 1 today and thats for certain.

shootermacg

Amprodude wrote: »

Well we are definitely not number 1 today and thats for certain.

Rough with the smooth bro, rough with thew smooth.. You might possibly be looking back at the Joe Schmidt era as the greatest ever for Irish rugby.

Bob Harris

Deepblack wrote: »

Would love to see what Steve Hansen would do with our squad.

Steve would dump half of them something which Joe has always been reluctant to do. Unless you are Devin Toner.

dregin

Joe Schmidt is the epitomy of class. He owes us nothing, but has given us everything. I don't think there is a coach in the world who could have done better with the players Joe has had at his disposal. We'll be feeling the impact he has had on Irish rugby for generations to come.

Thank Joe!

shootermacg

Deepblack wrote: »

Would love to see what Steve Hansen would do with our squad.

Very little. Coaching NZ is probably the easiest gig. NZ being probably the only country where rugby is the number one sport.

El_Duderino 09

Definitely not a failure. Not an unmitigated success either but on balance, his tenure has been very good for Ireland. The game is extremely strong in Ireland at the moment. The provinces are back to very strong form and (particularly Leinster) are bringing through incredibly talented young lads and real professionals.

Joe hasn’t been perfect but he’s been very good and is leaving Irish rugby in a very strong position.

KaneToad

Amprodude wrote: »

Ireland were never number 1 realistically. Lets not fool ourselves here.

We were very much #1. It's not subject to opinion, it's a calculated position that all teams in the world are subject to. The soccer ball people rank their teams too...it's a common thing to do.

Joe was good for Irish rugby. He's not the second coming of Christ but he did move us forward somewhat.

Bob Harris

shootermacg wrote: »

Very little. Coaching NZ is probably the easiest gig. NZ being probably the only country where rugby is the number one sport.

I'm sure he just throws them a ball and they do they rest themselves.

The best team in the world is just that because of the quality of the coaching.

Downlinz

It was a great era although not perfect. As with EOS and Kidney before him he took us to new heights but hit a ceiling below what we hoped for. Plenty for Farrell to build on.

Neil3030

Ah come on, Irish people never get a "happy-ever-after" ending and Schmidt clearly knew this ahead of time.

Give us our best days - check
Make us believe - check
Fall short - check

It was the best of times, it led to agonising defeat - it was the most idiosyncratically Irish thing you could have imagined.

Well done Joe, and thank you.

shootermacg

Bob Harris wrote: »

I'm sure he just throws them a ball and they do they rest themselves.

The best team in the world is just that because of the quality of the coaching.

Not the best table in the world, but here's when he coached Wales....
Hardly stellar stats now are they? tsk tsk
Average 33% win rate, and he got that from playing T2 teams.

Like I was saying, he probably makes the tea in NZ, which is all they need really.


Opponent Played Won Drew Lost Win ratio (%) For Against
Australia 1 0 0 1 0.00% 10 30
Canada 2 2 0 0 100% 73 31
England 5 0 0 5 0.00% 66 178
Fiji 1 1 0 0 100.00% 58 14
France 3 0 0 3 0.00% 60 99
Ireland 3 0 0 3 0.00% 51 96
Italy 4 3 0 1 75.00% 137 75
New Zealand 3 0 0 3 0.00% 57 151
Romania 1 1 0 0 100.00% 40 3
Scotland 4 2 0 2 50.00% 90 76
South Africa 2 0 0 2 0.00% 27 53
Tonga 1 1 0 0 100% 27 20
TOTAL 30 10 0 20 33.33% 696 826

Lucy8080

Jeez, he coached us to a Grand Slam victory at Twickenham! Leinster fans know the kind of dream rugby that was watched under his leadership.

I reckon if we played France first fixture(rather than last) in 2015 W.C. , we would have gone beyond the q.f.s. Luck of the draw that one.

In defeat or victory, I felt he came across on the t.v./media in a way that never let Ireland down. We just never really got into a stride this year. He owes this country nothing , none of us can doubt that he wanted a semi-final as much/more than any fan.

I've some great memories of great days out...thank you.

Amprodude

shootermacg wrote: »

Rough with the smooth bro, rough with thew smooth.. You might possibly be looking back at the Joe Schmidt era as the greatest ever for Irish rugby.

Maybe and quite possible our greatest coach but i will also remember our 2015 and 2019 RWC exits. Ireland have been one dimensional in last 2 World cups.

Amprodude

KaneToad wrote: »

We were very much #1. It's not subject to opinion, it's a calculated position that all teams in the world are subject to. The soccer ball people rank their teams too...it's a common thing to do.

Joe was good for Irish rugby. He's not the second coming of Christ but he did move us forward somewhat.

Dont be fooling yourself on the #1 status. We were never that realistically.

shootermacg

Amprodude wrote: »

Dont be fooling yourself on the #1 status. We were never that realistically.

I'm not the same as you, I don't beat myself up about things. Life's too short to be miserable all the time, you'll find people will just avoid you like the plague and you'll end up on the forums 100%

JJJackal

Amprodude wrote: »

Dont be fooling yourself on the #1 status. We were never that realistically.

Realistically we were number 1 in the world. The hard work to facilitate this was done in 2018. Prior to the world cup in 2019, we had only lost to England and Wales (beating wales twice and losing once). We were unbeaten for many many months before the England loss.

Based on how rankings are calculated we were clearly number 1.

Shefwedfan

Amprodude wrote: »

Ireland were never number 1 realistically. Lets not fool ourselves here.

It doesn't really matter what you think, the history books have it recorded that Ireland where Number 1 in World.....that's all that matters


Also in 2018, Ireland was the best team in the World.

WoollyRedHat

The truth of the matter is Schmidt gave the fans the believe that we could beat the AB on our day for the first time , he instilled a veerguard confidence that we simply did not have 4 years ago. That's why yesterday's defeat hurts that much more, it is the hope that kills you.

I remember going to the Aviva circa 3 years ago when we played Italy in the 6N (my first 6N outing(and the team scored the world try of the year, it was a thing of beauty, one end to the other, of free flowing rugby. Schmidt gave us some wonderful moments as rugby fans, it's a shame that it had to end the way it did yesterday, but that's life. His legacy will stand the test of time. Thanks Joe.

Danthemanhere

Schmidt well be remembered as a very good coach who achieved great success but failed at the world cups.

Shefwedfan

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Schmidt well be remembered as a very good coach who achieved great success but failed at the world cups.

No he won't

JJJackal

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No he won't

Schmidt will be remembered as the great coach he was/is

Shefwedfan

JJJackal wrote: »

Schmidt will be remembered as the great coach he was/is

Exactly


Also the most successful coach for Ireland

Danthemanhere

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No he won't

Yes he will. He won a grand slam and 2 other 6 nations but lead us to two of our worst defeats at the world cup and our record defeat. He failed at world cups, no denying it.

JJJackal

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Yes he will. He won a grand slam and 2 other 6 nations but lead us to two of our worst defeats at the world cup and our record defeat. He failed at world cups, no denying it.

Your definition of failure is two quarter finals.

The first we lost mainly through injury

The second we lost to the best team in the world (granted we also lost to Japan leading us to play the best team in the world)

World Cups were not a success agreed

DellyBelly

Watching Wales there and I just wonder if we had kept Gatland what could he achieved with Ireland? Really think he'd have got the team to a semi and maybe even further. Joe has been a very good coach though. His world Cup record being really the only black mark against him.

snotboogie

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No he won't

Ridiculous! The World Cup is the biggest stage, Schmidt had two pops at it and fell well short on both occasions. Yes, he was very good in a historically weak 6 nations with a historically strong Irish team but when the chips were down he bottled it against Argentina and Japan and never even put up a fight against New Zealand. He was a good bean counter, very conscientious, but he lacked the flair of a guy like Warren Gatland to get it done when it really mattered.