"Technological Universities" - window dressing?

knipex

What people forget is that the old RTC's did more to transform the Irish economy than any university.

They graduated people with real skills that were immediately needed by industry. They produced the technicians, the "engineers" with practical knowledge and skills and well as providing the academic training to generations of apprentices..

Its those graduates that set up the industries in Ireland that provided the skills that drew in the FDI, supported the FDI and late became exporters in their own right.

They also provided an alternative to generations of students, those that didn't want to or were not suited to go down the purely academic route of university.

To some they gave the first introduction to skills and areas of knowledge that later resulted in further academic qualifications, to others the training they provided set them up in rewarding, and often well paid careers.

Over the last 20 years they appear to have forgotten that role and become obsessed with the idea of becoming universities.

In my opinion this has let down generation of students and significant damage to our indigenous economy,,

Who is training our CNC programmers ? our skilled technicians, our lab techs, processes techs our project engineers, our cad techs or draftsmen \ women etc. ??

Do you really need a level 8 degree so that an employer will take you on and then spend the money to actually train you in house to fill a role that they used to be able to fill out of an RTC ??

Greyfox

TallGlass2 wrote: »

Telecom Eireann, Eircom, Eir, few more years maybe just E.

And they will still be the most incompetent company in Ireland, still takes an hour to get through to them. When they changed from Eircom to Eir ABSOLUTELY nothing changed

With all companies including universities they would rather rebrand the name rather then actually make a change for the better

mikhail

Margot Miniature Slugger wrote: »

Yes. You're absolutely right. And so we can't simultaneously raise the standard of all degrees while also expecting everyone to acquire a degree.

The powers-that-be won't accept the evident reality that a significant number of students simply are not oriented toward university-level academic study. If they do get onto a high-level course, they will only waste their time and money, drop out, and feel like failures. And what are they to do then?

We need to expand post-secondary opportunities for all students, not just the best and brightest.

Merged institutions are better equipped to do that. As it stands, they have enough staff to run three similar programs. All three programs are pitched too high for the lads you're talking about. If you pool the staff, you can devote some of them to running 2 year courses or whatever that are much better targeted to weaker students.

LirW

mikhail wrote: »

Merged institutions are better equipped to do that. As it stands, they have enough staff to run three similar programs. All three programs are pitched too high for the lads you're talking about. If you pool the staff, you can devote some of them to running 2 year courses or whatever that are much better targeted to weaker students.

It's a mistake to think it's only weak students. Often it's also people that simply want to return to college to give themselves a better chance to grow or change career because they never had the option to go into third level.
The whole system is very poor in catering different needs.

I'm currently in a course that would allow me to finish with a degree, but the only option on their campus is doing it full-time. I'm an adult with commitments, I can't just go and attend college for 3 more years full time with a 4 hour commute each day. With a lot of fighting and tinkering I found the option to transferring to another campus because they offer a part-time option.
Half the course attendants already dropped out because they can't fit their course into their schedule because of the lack of e-learning.

It's 2019, the demand for a highly educated workforce is high but it's not that straight forward for anyone who isn't suited for 3rd level or older. The lack of distance learning or part time options for students is a real problem.
And let's face it, if you really want to upskill, nobody gives a crap about your Level 6 cert.

sydthebeat

TallGlass2 wrote: »

Telecom Eireann, Eircom, Eir, few more years maybe just E.

I think that may be taken already

knipex

LirW wrote: »

It's a mistake to think it's only weak students. Often it's also people that simply want to return to college to give themselves a better chance to grow or change career because they never had the option to go into third level.
The whole system is very poor in catering different needs.

I'm currently in a course that would allow me to finish with a degree, but the only option on their campus is doing it full-time. I'm an adult with commitments, I can't just go and attend college for 3 more years full time with a 4 hour commute each day. With a lot of fighting and tinkering I found the option to transferring to another campus because they offer a part-time option.
Half the course attendants already dropped out because they can't fit their course into their schedule because of the lack of e-learning.

It's 2019, the demand for a highly educated workforce is high but it's not that straight forward for anyone who isn't suited for 3rd level or older. The lack of distance learning or part time options for students is a real problem.
And let's face it, if you really want to upskill, nobody gives a crap about your Level 6 cert.

I don't get the obsession with level 7 and 8 degrees.

No offense to graduates but its normally months to years with in-house training before they offer any real benefit to an organization.

Highly skilled does not equate to level 8 degrees or masters and doctorates.

It means just that skills.

Have you tired to hire a 5 axis CNC programmer recently ? or a decent project engineer (and I'm not talking about IT or construction here which have their own issues) or a good technician with automation, PLC and drives knowledge ?

They are real skills, skills that are in demand and are well paid.

None of them require a degree. Some of the best tech's I have ever seen served apprenticeships. Someone with a degree assuming they have the right aptitude,
will take at least 2 years to train to a reasonable standard.

A good tech, can make 50K+, More if they are willing to work shift. The old RTC's used to graduate people with certs or diploma's who were perfect for these roles. Most of the companies that used to run apprenticeship programs have stopped as parents were telling their kids that they weren't good enough for them.

The IT's should be talking to industry, training these people, giving them the skills that the economy actually needs, working with companies to support and build apprenticeships, provide the academic support for these... not trying to turn into a university..

To be 100% open I did my degree part time, while working. I did it purely because it was expected that I have one to do the role I was in at the time and the fact that I didn't have it was causing my boss problems and was going to affect my pay at review stage..

I am not for one second saying that it didn't provide me with additional skills, it did, but I have also done multiple short courses over the years, (and continue to) that offer very specific training in a very narrow area that provided me with skill that were of equal of not higher benefit to me and my employer.

GarIT

If all the low quality institutes rebrand to universities how can we easily identity varying standards of education. 10% of CAO listed institutions being universities made sense, heading over 30% is getting ridiculous.

The "everyone is the same" model hurts the high achievers and hurts business investment in Ireland when multinationals are hiring low quality employees based on their claims of having university degrees.

Not everyone is up to university standards, people who can't handle university need access to education too.

knipex

GarIT wrote: »

If all the low quality institutes

That is the problem right there.

They weren't "low Quality"

They offered a different type of education to Universities, providing different skills.

Not worse skills, not lower quality skills just different,

tdf7187

o1s1n wrote: »

Bit of a difference in being able to say your degree came from an 'I.T' and an institution with university status.

If I were a student, I know which I would rather.

In that case you have bought into the prejudice. Anglo culture undervalues engineering/technical disciplines.

LirW

knipex wrote: »

I don't get the obsession with level 7 and 8 degrees.

...

Listen I fully agree with you there and while it depends a bit on the field, this is the game you have to play nowadays.

So many fields that previously required different training moved more and more into 3rd level and employers are asking for it.
A good example is Childcare. The sector is in bits yet workers are encouraged to get a degree in childcare while it wouldn't change anything in pay compared to a Level 6 in it.

Since so many young people are in college and many companies make it a (sometimes unspoken) requirement to hire people without a degree, this is the competition. Everyone who didn't go down the route of college grind will have to compete with a myriad of graduates. A degree will never look bad in a CV.

And you can believe me, I despise that things are this way. It basically makes it more difficult for people that don't do well in an academic setting to get valid qualification and experience because the requirement are high and the competition is there.
Over in PI you see students from time to time that hate college and don't know what to do. Almost always people tell them to stick it out.
As much as I hate it, this is the new status quo.

RacoonQueen

o1s1n wrote: »

Bit of a difference in being able to say your degree came from an 'I.T' and an institution with university status.

If I were a student, I know which I would rather.

MIT is consistently one of the highest ranking institutions, if I am hiring a tech graduate I don't care whether their degree came from an IT or a University.

tdf7187

RacoonQueen wrote: »

MIT is consistently one of the highest ranking institutions, if I am hiring a tech graduate I don't care whether their degree came from an IT or a University.

Indeed and you don't see them rebranding as a university to impress the easily led.

vriesmays

GarIT wrote: »

Not everyone is up to university standards, people who can't handle university need access to education too.

These people would be better off doing a trade instead of going to a crap college.

Outkast_IRE

This is just another topical item that the average joe is more than happy to wade into with fairly baseless opinions. The lipstick on a pig analogy on pg1 was poorly made with regards to some of the ITs looking to gain technological university status.

1. consider the reasons they are doing it , when push comes to shove it will always be because of ……….. Funding. Outside of Dublin , ITs have been starved of capital investment for over 10 years now. They see this new status as coming with a higher level of funding , of course they are going to chase it.

2. The ITs that have decided to go for this status have been making massive strides to push their staff to the next level, many of them have undertaken Masters & PHDs. The bar for new entrants now to lecture is generally raised to masters level but exceptions are made. They have also pushed for research to take a key role and expect lecturers to be publishing papers and research.

3. With regards to the number of students dropping out - Both Universities and ITs are massively guilty of this. It occurs for a few reasons firstly the government funding for these institutions is tied to numbers of students. More students = more funding so the universities and ITs take on as many as they can fit. But at the same time class sizes are larger than ever , so the struggling students will not be spotted as easily . The ITs are pushing hard to up the retention numbers with "good start " programmes now in place in most to help students with the transitions and have learning centres to help students in difficulty with subjects.
Second Level Institutions and Solas need to take their share of the blame also - Second Level metrics are based on progression to 3rd level being a measure of success , this should be banned.

Solas need a kick up the hole to get new exciting apprenticeships started around the country - we need more apprenticeships in the likes of building controls and automation systems, more progression options after the traditional apprenticeship for example in Germany a carpentry apprentice has a very clear and accessible route all the way to PHD level - Some of the best lecturers in building physics in Germany are carpenters who have gone all the way to PHD. We need the apprenticeships to be so well funded and supported that they are a real option .

I completed my apprenticeship and went back and did my honours degree and will be soon be doing my masters whilst working full time . But it is not easy in this country direct routes of progression are just not there.


The ITs in this country need to remember their key role is to be more agile and respond to the needs of employers in this country . They are not agile anymore and are afraid to start new courses because they don't have the funds. The course I qualified in was cancelled in Cork a few years ago, cancelled in Waterford and now runs in Dublin only, but I can go on Irish jobs and find hundreds of openings nationwide for positions in it. The numbers applying were low , so rather than getting investment in the programme and raising their game to attract students they just shuttered it cause it was a loss making course.

Poor_old_gill

They should close a good number of these institutions and bring in a proper apprenticeship scheme.

If you have gotten 150 points in your leaving and the only course you can get into is Business in LIT then education just isnt for you but you may have other skills that could be utilised.

When going into a lot of these courses - you are so far down the list of potential employers that you will probably end up in a job after doing your course that you could have gotten into via an apprenticeship whereby you were earning a wage and not costing the tax payer.

Montage of Feck

Its an absolute load of ****, MIT in Boston hasn't been held back by being an IT.

mikhail

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Its an absolute load of ****, MIT in Boston hasn't been held back by being an IT.

This is apples and oranges. The ITs here are a completely different beast. Trinity and UCD are competing with MIT (perhapse not especially well). Dundalk IT is not.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Its an absolute load of ****, MIT in Boston hasn't been held back by being an IT.

MIT is one of the top universities in the world, with an endowment of over $17 billion, affiliated with 95 Nobel laureates. It's not exactly in the same ballpark as Sligo IT.

knipex

knipex wrote: »

I don't get the obsession with level 7 and 8 degrees.

No offense to graduates but its normally months to years with in-house training before they offer any real benefit to an organization.

Highly skilled does not equate to level 8 degrees or masters and doctorates.

It means just that skills.

Have you tired to hire a 5 axis CNC programmer recently ? or a decent project engineer (and I'm not talking about IT or construction here which have their own issues) or a good technician with automation, PLC and drives knowledge ?

They are real skills, skills that are in demand and are well paid.

None of them require a degree. Some of the best tech's I have ever seen served apprenticeships. Someone with a degree assuming they have the right aptitude,
will take at least 2 years to train to a reasonable standard.

A good tech, can make 50K+, More if they are willing to work shift. The old RTC's used to graduate people with certs or diploma's who were perfect for these roles. Most of the companies that used to run apprenticeship programs have stopped as parents were telling their kids that they weren't good enough for them.

The IT's should be talking to industry, training these people, giving them the skills that the economy actually needs, working with companies to support and build apprenticeships, provide the academic support for these... not trying to turn into a university..

To be 100% open I did my degree part time, while working. I did it purely because it was expected that I have one to do the role I was in at the time and the fact that I didn't have it was causing my boss problems and was going to affect my pay at review stage..

I am not for one second saying that it didn't provide me with additional skills, it did, but I have also done multiple short courses over the years, (and continue to) that offer very specific training in a very narrow area that provided me with skill that were of equal of not higher benefit to me and my employer.

I think it's more of a hr thing needing a degree for some companies. Most of the really skilled people I work with in I.T. don't actually have them and others just got them to have the piece of paper required to get past this hr filter

nkl12xtw5goz70

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

If you have gotten 150 points in your leaving and the only course you can get into is Business in LIT then education just isnt for you but you may have other skills that could be utilised.

One possible solution is to remove free college for anyone with under 300 points. Instead, create more vocational training and apprenticeship options, but don't try to turn everything under the sun into a "degree."

That way, you don't have everyone trying to pursue a four-year university path, and those who don't want to go that route feeling pressured into it. University should be for those with academic aptitude, but there should be respectable career paths for others to follow as well.

gctest50

There's lots of €€€€ in students from outside the EU & students from outside the EU might be more likely to choose Tralee University than Tralee IT

I'm sure the IT's are printing their Medicine Through Interpretative Dance papers right now

nkl12xtw5goz70

RacoonQueen wrote: »

MIT is consistently one of the highest ranking institutions, if I am hiring a tech graduate I don't care whether their degree came from an IT or a University.

MIT is a university.

Wanderer78

Margot Miniature Slugger wrote:

One possible solution is to remove free college for anyone with under 300 points. Instead, create more vocational training and apprenticeship options, but don't try to turn everything under the sun into a "degree."

Would have wiped out a load of folks I went to college with, including myself, many probably have successful careers because of it now, how about just create alternative training paths as you suggested, rather than trying to create a section of our educational system that's more exclusive than inclusive, very few receive free education in Ireland, if any at all

Outkast_IRE

We should stop trying to treat secondary schools as feeders to uni and ITs , not everybody is ready for 3rd level education at 17 and 18 .

We should encourage more to go working for a year or two, take up a trade and then return to education alot more mature and ready.

Generally I believe most in Ireland are capable of passing third level education as it's more having a work ethic to go to all the classes and tutorials and grind through it for alot of courses. But alot of the students are not mature enough for it straight out of school.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Would have wiped out a load of folks I went to college with, including myself, many probably have successful careers because of it now, how about just create alternative training paths as you suggested, rather than trying to create a section of our educational system that's more exclusive than inclusive, very few receive free education in Ireland, if any at all

Because in order to create "degree courses" for sub-300-points students, and especially sub-200-points students, you have to resort to all manner of shenanigans — Mickey Mouse courses, rampant grade inflation, etc. — to keep up the pretense to students, employers, and the taypaying public that something of value is being created with the enterprise of trying to send academically challenged students down an academic path.

If a student can't get over 200 points in the Leaving Cert, what exactly is wrong with saying that that student shouldn't be going along an academic career path that most likely will be a complete waste of time and money?

Instead, create viable career tracks for those who are not academically oriented, have a smaller cohort of students going to university and pursuing degrees, and make sure that the degrees that are granted are not eroded by grade inflation.

GarIT

knipex wrote: »

That is the problem right there.

They weren't "low Quality"

They offered a different type of education to Universities, providing different skills.

Not worse skills, not lower quality skills just different,

Fromthe ones I've been to ITs tended to have lower quality facilities, poorer student unions, less intellectually/accademically focused. I've attended NCI and the quality of lecturers was shockingly bad compared to Maynooth. I wouldn't have even said Maynooth was great either.


To phrase the question differently then, when they all have to be accademically and theory focused to meet the standards of universities who will provide practical skills?

GarIT

vriesmays wrote: »

These people would be better off doing a trade instead of going to a crap college.

I disagree, I have colleagues that did some form of programming at ITs. They wouldn't be creating artificial intelligence but they have built up their skills and are making decent money doing the work that's not so mathematically focused.


Almost all of the admin people I work with have business degrees, many from ITs. They aren't running the place, but it has given them a good basis from doing their work. There is a middle ground between being highly accademically focused and doing a trade.


We need ITs

Geuze

Margot Miniature Slugger wrote: »

Yes. You're absolutely right. And so we can't simultaneously raise the standard of all degrees while also expecting everyone to acquire a degree.

The powers-that-be won't accept the evident reality that a significant number of students simply are not oriented toward university-level academic study. If they do get onto a high-level course, they will only waste their time and money, drop out, and feel like failures. And what are they to do then?

We need to expand post-secondary opportunities for all students, not just the best and brightest.

+100%

There are two many students at university.

People with 300 points are not able for uni, and shouldn't be allowed in.

Are we doing them any favour letting them do Arts with 300 points, and getting 45% in their degree?

This costs the taxpayer and them maybe €40,000.

Is that the wisest use of the 40k, when the country is crying out for skilled tradespeople?

mvl

TBH, as parent, currently I've no desire to steer my minion towards 3rd level education in IRL, unless she wants to go towards hospitality degrees.
On this subject, imo the local IT is no valid option for computer science degree; if she'd consider a career in STEM, there might be good few interesting options on the continent that suit our family circumstances.

Geuze

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Its an absolute load of ****, MIT in Boston hasn't been held back by being an IT.

That is not a correct comparison.

An IoT here should be compared with a community college in the USA.