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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,606 ✭✭✭ultrapercy


    Cona wrote: »
    I heard some mumblings about the Nikes and how you have to be running a certain pace (lets say sub 7 min/mile) to be able to get the full advantage of them...Anyone know if there is truth to this?

    Id say its more your style than your pace that is the factor. Id be quicker than 7 min pace but have a choppy shuffley stride so dont think they would suit me. Id imagin if you'r not a fore foot strike they wouldnt work for you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,435 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Cona wrote: »
    I heard some mumblings about the Nikes and how you have to be running a certain pace (lets say sub 7 min/mile) to be able to get the full advantage of them...Anyone know if there is truth to this?

    I certainly passed plenty of them on the course the other day, running a fairly even 8-min mile pace. So it’s definitely not just the shoes!


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    Cona wrote: »
    I heard some mumblings about the Nikes and how you have to be running a certain pace (lets say sub 7 min/mile) to be able to get the full advantage of them...Anyone know if there is truth to this?

    There's people running 10min miles wearing them.

    Having better form will give you more of an advantage with them. If your form is not good and you run a marathon in them, and your legs feel like you only ran a half then they'll have giving you a return I think.

    Being able to run your MP runs easier and recover faster is worth as much as what they are supposed to give you on a race day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,511 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Interesting thread on LetsRun: https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9677634

    Salient point of the OP:
    Here are the sub-2:10 performances by year in the last decade (total sample size is 2921):

    2019 – 180 (6.1%)
    2018 – 171 (5.9%)
    2017 – 186 (6.4%)
    2016 – 146 (5.0%)
    2015 – 167 (5.7%)
    2014 – 196 (6.7%)
    2013 – 173 (5.9%)
    2012 – 197 (6.7%)
    2011 – 174 (6.0%)
    2010 – 158 (5.4%)
    2009 – 116 (4.0%)
    2008 – 106 (3.6%)
    2016 being the year that the Vaporflys were released. The argument being that we haven't seen a significant increase in 2:10 performances since then (2:10 being a pretty reasonable time to take that a lot of elites would be on the threshold of)

    Plenty of counter-arguments available, including:
    • Vaporflys were released November 2016, so including that year above the line is a bit misleading
    • 2:10 is pretty arbitrary
    • 2019 isn't over yet, and had another 4 sub-2:10s today
    • A year is a pretty broad brush stroke to be painting with, especially in athletics
    • Extremely difficult to control for other factors e.g. how much did the horrendous weather at Boston 2018 skew that year's results
    • No figures on what percentage are actually wearing Vaporflys
    • Small sample set
    Still, it's interesting to see 2012 and 2014 being such outliers in the BV* years

    Also Jepkosgei and Keitany (1st and 2nd in NY today), and Korir (2nd man) all wearing Adidas

    Before Vaporfly... sorry :o

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭Trampas


    Any signs of a different brand coming out with something similar soon?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,621 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Trampas wrote: »
    Any signs of a different brand coming out with something similar soon?

    The Hoka Carbon - X has been out for a while now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower


    Adidas have one as well


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,849 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    IvoryTower wrote: »
    He mentioned on his podcast he was one of only 15 athletes not wearing them in doha. I imagine it's pretty disheartening knowing that everyone else is getting a 1-2% bump. Makes complete sense to wear them.

    In fairness he also said in a podcast, the nike runner before the vaporfly offered a 3% improvement and no one complained.


  • Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭boydkev


    Trampas wrote: »
    Any signs of a different brand coming out with something similar soon?

    Skechers Speed Elite Hyper, these are supposed to be released this month. Some pre-released shoes have been getting very good reviews.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    https://www.asics.com/ie/en-ie/metaride%E2%84%A2/p/1011A142-001.html?width=Standard

    Don't have a carbon plate as far as I can tell.
    But certainly trying to match them on a price point..


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,941 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    They're a little bit expensive but still pennies compared to what people spend to gain a performance advantage in cycling/triathlon and there doesn't seem to be a reason why competitors can't wear the same shoes or risk to health in doing so, so don't see why they would be considered to be an unfair advantage.

    ⛥ ̸̱̼̞͛̀̓̈́͘#C̶̼̭͕̎̿͝R̶̦̮̜̃̓͌O̶̬͙̓͝W̸̜̥͈̐̾͐Ṋ̵̲͔̫̽̎̚͠ͅT̸͓͒͐H̵͔͠È̶̖̳̘͍͓̂W̴̢̋̈͒͛̋I̶͕͑͠T̵̻͈̜͂̇Č̵̤̟̑̾̂̽H̸̰̺̏̓ ̴̜̗̝̱̹͛́̊̒͝⛥



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,849 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    boydkev wrote: »
    Skechers Speed Elite Hyper, these are supposed to be released this month. Some pre-released shoes have been getting very good reviews.

    Brooks hyperion elite will have a carbon plate also


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,849 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Limpy wrote: »
    There's people running 10min miles wearing them.

    Having better form will give you more of an advantage with them. If your form is not good and you run a marathon in them, and your legs feel like you only ran a half then they'll have giving you a return I think.

    Being able to run your MP runs easier and recover faster is worth as much as what they are supposed to give you on a race day.

    They are also known for causing injuries. So be careful and take your time getting used to them


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    They are also known for causing injuries. So be careful and take your time getting used to them

    Source??


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,849 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Ceepo wrote: »
    Source??

    It was in a podcast by Scullion, but also there is a study that extra cushioning causes you more injuries, which is what the vaporfly's now have, ie extra cushioning.

    Most normal racing flats don't have much cushioning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    It was in a podcast by Scullion, but also there is a study that extra cushioning causes you more injuries, which is what the vaporfly's now have, ie extra cushioning.

    Most normal racing flats don't have much cushioning.

    I haven't listened to the podcast..
    And while the VF has more cushion it also has the carbon plate to give it stability.
    How much more cushion has the VF compared to the standard high mileage shoe of any other brand?
    I'm not sure that any particular type of shoe can prevent or cause injury.
    Simply stating that more cushion cause injury, you could infer that less wont cause injury, and this is not the case.
    And they're studys to say that a particular type ( motion control, stability etc ) of runners doesnt prevent injury
    Can you link the study stating that more cushion causes more injury. Tbh if find most of these studys very poor for the simple reason, they cant take into account the huge amount of variables that make up the gait cycle. So doing a "controlled study" is next to impossible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,849 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Ceepo wrote: »
    I haven't listened to the podcast..
    And while the VF has more cushion it also has the carbon plate to give it stability.
    How much more cushion has the VF compared to the standard high mileage shoe of any other brand?
    I'm not sure that any particular type of shoe can prevent or cause injury.
    Simply stating that more caution cause injury, you could infer that less wont cause injury, and this is not the case.
    And they're studys to say that a particular type ( motion control, stability etc ) of runners doesnt prevent injury
    Can you link the study stating that more cushion causes more injury. Tbh if find most of these studys very poor for the simple reason, they cant take into account the huge amount of variables that make up the gait cycle. So doing a "controlled study" is next to impossible.

    I cant find it right now, but if you google it or go through runners world you should find it. Most cushion runners are causing us injuries compare to be miminal racing flats etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    I cant find it right now, but if you google it or go through runners world you should find it. Most cushion runners are causing us injuries compare to be miminal racing flats etc.

    I dont have the time now to Google or go through runners world.

    You made a fairly blanket statement, it would have been helpful if you cited your source of information.

    "Most cushion runners are causing us injuries compare to be miminal racing flats etc"

    If you believe this to be true, what is the optimum level of cushion? Is that down to stack height? What about the same stack height with a different density foam?

    Most people race in racing flats don't use them for training. Some might use them for a speed session... so taking that into account they run in them 4 to 6 times per month (pure guess work).
    Can we compare that to someone using a cushioned shoe say 20 times a month.. and thats before you factor in any biomechanical differences.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    IvoryTower wrote: »

    I didnt read the study but here are a few take outs from the article.

    No shoe has ever been shown to reduce or increase overall injury risk,” 
    The study didn’t find enough evidence to recommend or warn against using maximalist shoes. What runners can take away from this study, however, is that no matter what shoes they wear, their biomechanics won’t change while wearing them. So if your shoes are aggravating an injury, they’ll probably continue to aggravate it as long as you run in them.

    “If the goal is to reduce impact during running, it seems that there is likely a ‘sweet spot’ for cushioning in shoes,” 

    The cushioning sweet spot is probably highly individual,


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,320 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,806 ✭✭✭hawkwing


    Cutting Open The Nike ZoomX Vaporfly Next% --at least he got 1 mile for $250!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SXMAg7o7rU


  • Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    hawkwing wrote: »
    Cutting Open The Nike ZoomX Vaporfly Next% --at least he got 1 mile for $250!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SXMAg7o7rU

    Given his history I imagine he relished destroying anything Nike :P


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