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Scottish independence

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  • Oh, definitely. It's why I referred to 'Great Britain' - so as to limit to that one geographical island as clearly the stability didn't stretch to this island.

    I thought you might have alright. :)




  • You do realise that the EU is a group of humans essentially with human thoughts and emotions?

    How could you possibly counter that there wouldn't be some schadenfreude at the break up of the UK on foot of Brexit? It would be impossible not to laugh at it.

    At an individual level, of course. At an institutional and political level, its just a headache.




  • First Up wrote: »
    At an individual level, of course. At an institutional and political level, its just a headache.

    It'll still seep in. You can see it already with how they are not really hiding their exasperation anymore.




  • Why is it always forgotten that this fabled "stability" that Britain supposedly has has included in the 20th century alone:

    - Two civil wars and multiple wars and insurrections
    - Part of its territory leaving
    - A peace accord with another nation to guarantee equality for its citizens because it failed to do so itself
    - State forces murdering its own citizens

    And so on...

    Or is it because it was Ireland that doesn't count as being "theirs" problem.

    How many violent and fatal riots as well?

    Official UK likes to portray itself and some sort of beacon of stability. Anyone with a lick of sense knows it's anything but.

    Too right Scotland wants to leave.

    That’s a complete red herring though, based on your own views.

    You may as well say that Ireland likes to portray itself as a bastion of civil rights and equality when in reality, it’s mired with political corruption, child abuse and financial incompetence, no wonder Cork wants independence.

    The reality is, Scotland is very much front and centre of official UK, just as Cork is very much part of official Ireland.

    You can try and paint this as a poor Celtic nation being subjugated by the big bad Saxon foe as much as you like, but that really is not reality.




  • The fact that it's still a union makes it far more stable than if Scotland were to leave.

    In what way is the UK a union?


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  • SNIP. No snarky comments.




  • In what way is the UK a union?

    it is a union of countries

    https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/union
    2. UNCOUNTABLE NOUN
    When the union of two or more things occurs, they are joined together and become one thing.




  • At the highest levels in US administration they would not be in favour of Scottish independence.

    World powers like the US prefer their allies to be stable, Scottish independences threatens this stability.

    Now no US official will come out and say that because it's an internal British matter, but that's what they are thinking.

    Same with the EU, the EU would much prefer Scotland remain in the UK for a multitude of reasons.

    Would it not be opposite without Scotland Tories would have an unassailable majority and you endup with a de facto one party authoritarian state, Beijing on Thames




  • Would it not be opposite without Scotland Tories would have an unassailable majority and you endup with a de facto one party authoritarian state, Beijing on Thames

    No.

    Labour would still have won the 1997, 2001 and 2005 elections had England been an independent country.




  • Aegir wrote: »
    That’s a complete red herring though, based on your own views.

    You may as well say that Ireland likes to portray itself as a bastion of civil rights and equality when in reality, it’s mired with political corruption, child abuse and financial incompetence, no wonder Cork wants independence.

    The reality is, Scotland is very much front and centre of official UK, just as Cork is very much part of official Ireland.

    You can try and paint this as a poor Celtic nation being subjugated by the big bad Saxon foe as much as you like, but that really is not reality.

    A rather bitter comment about Ireland.


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  • A rather bitter comment about Ireland.

    an exaggeration used for the purposes of example.




  • Aegir wrote: »
    an exaggeration used for the purposes of example.

    Well, relatively speaking, "in reality" modern Ireland is not "mired" in the things you say. And I would consider modern Ireland to have enough civil rights and to be a relatively equal society.




  • Well, relatively speaking, "in reality" modern Ireland is not "mired" in the things you say. And I would consider modern Ireland to have enough civil rights and to be a relatively equal society.

    I guess that is open to a different discussion and not really relevant to this thread.

    Bonnie was referring to something that happened fifty years ago and relating it to Scotland wishing to leave the UK as if it is relevant today, or at least relevant to Scottish independence, which of course it is not.




  • Aegir wrote: »
    I guess that is open to a different discussion and not really relevant to this thread.

    Bonnie was referring to something that happened fifty years ago and relating it to Scotland wishing to leave the UK as if it is relevant today, or at least relevant to Scottish independence, which of course it is not.

    Fair enough, I hadn't read that discussion.




  • Fair enough, I hadn't read that discussion.

    Neither has he if that's what he took from it.

    I was referring to the fabled stability of the UK and how some like First Up keep harping on about how Scotland leaving is a destabilising event and as such they should stay put. I was pointing out that it's codswallop.

    That being said, Ballymurphy being 50 years ago is neither there now there. It happened and is a scar on the endless scar tissue of Britain.

    But sure, use this opportunity, Aegir to distract and obfuscate.

    To live in your black and white world must be amazing.




  • Aegir wrote: »

    I asked in what way? pointing to a dictionary does not cut it. Is it a voluntary union? Where is the equivalent of an Article 50?




  • I asked in what way? pointing to a dictionary does not cut it. Is it a voluntary union? Where is the equivalent of an Article 50?

    There is no article 50 just as there is no admission policy.

    When the Scottish Parliament approached Westminster it was never envisaged that it would be reversed, just as it is not envisaged that if Scotland left, it could apply for readmission.

    You are questioning something that happened over three hundred years ago and trying to compare it with modern events.




  • I asked in what way? pointing to a dictionary does not cut it. Is it a voluntary union? Where is the equivalent of an Article 50?
    Seriously
    What's with the pedantry ?

    Scotland is in a political union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

    That's pretty widely established.

    Stop splitting hairs about terminology and make a worthwhile contribution.




  • Aegir wrote: »
    That’s a complete red herring though, based on your own views.

    You may as well say that Ireland likes to portray itself as a bastion of civil rights and equality when in reality, it’s mired with political corruption, child abuse and financial incompetence, no wonder Cork wants independence.

    The reality is, Scotland is very much front and centre of official UK, just as Cork is very much part of official Ireland.

    You can try and paint this as a poor Celtic nation being subjugated by the big bad Saxon foe as much as you like, but that really is not reality.

    Just for full clarity here.


    Cork doesn't want independence. It's a country it's an on going 'In' joke . I'm really hoping you were trying to make some joke there (it's actually not very clear tbh) otherwise you've shown a gaping hole in your understanding of Ireland.




  • listermint wrote: »
    Just for full clarity here.


    Cork doesn't want independence. It's a country it's an on going 'In' joke . I'm really hoping you were trying to make some joke there (it's actually not very clear tbh) otherwise you've shown a gaping hole in your understanding of Ireland.

    Of course i was not serious, I was using it as an example.


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  • Seriously
    What's with the pedantry ?

    Scotland is in a political union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

    That's pretty widely established.

    Stop splitting hairs about terminology and make a worthwhile contribution.

    It is not splitting hairs at all, the people in Scotland have been told since 2014 that the UK is a precious union. I am aking in what way is it a union, never mind a precious union

    Is it a voluntary union? If it is not a voluntary union, at least be honest with people




  • It is not splitting hairs at all, the people in Scotland have been told since 2014 that the UK is a precious union. I am aking in what way is it a union, never mind a precious union

    Is it a voluntary union? If it is not a voluntary union, at least be honest with people

    It is a union that the Scots voluntarily entered in to.




  • Aegir wrote: »
    Of course i was not serious, I was using it as an example.

    Ah grand.

    It was a terrible example. One is a country in it's own right the other is a county.

    Very poor point , poorly made.




  • Aegir wrote: »
    It is a union that the Scots voluntarily entered in to.

    That is simply not true, the people in Scotland were not even consulted. Anyhow, are you are stating that an event that happened over 300 years ago cannot be reversed if the people want it reversed?




  • That is simply not true, the people in Scotland were not even consulted. Anyhow, are you are stating that an event that happened over 300 years ago cannot be reversed if the people want it reversed?

    The people in Scotland were consulted as much as anyone was consulted about politics 300 years ago.

    I never said it can’t be reversed, where did you pull that one from?

    There is a process and that was last tested seven years ago. The Scots decided to stay in the Union, or at least the people that live there did.




  • I'm not sure I'd classify the joining of kingdoms for monarchic convenience as a voluntary move by "Scots". Or indeed anyone else on the island. Besides, and here the historical experts can correct me, James I was King of Scotland first and foremost so really Edinburgh should be centre of the Union, not London ;) - if we're taking centuries old precedence as the driver here.

    Scottish self determination should only be considered as old as the modern democratic institutions that dictate the current iteration of the UK, anything less is just silly. So to that end, if we take the devolution ref of 79 as the starting point, it's already a 40+ year project. Within a union where enfranchisement itself is barely 100+ years old (I can't recall when women got the vote, though IIRC that act technically included all men over 18, as opposed to only college grads).




  • Scotland has been part of a union for centuries with very little difference between them and the rest of the union, same language, religion etc etc.
    From an outsider it's difficult to see why they want independence in the first place.
    Most outsiders would be aware of Scottish culture. Engineers, kilts, bagpipes, whisky etc. There's only two places in the world where coco cola isn't the biggest selling soft drink and the other one is a major cocaine producer.


    NHS Scotland was setup at the same time as NHS England. They are parallel but separate.

    Different legal system etc. etc.

    Banks are independent but hold English Sterling to match the Scottish pounds they put in circulation.

    Scotland is parallel to England but like Northern Ireland there are differences.

    Same religion ? , ye olde can of worms. Seriously, who is the head of the Church of Scotland ?

    Language ? try telling folk in NI that Scots is the same as English.

    Scotland's 'share' of the UK population is 10% (9.7%) - so HS2 and Trident could mean £20-£40bn taken from them.


    Thanks to the CTA people would have the freedom to to work and live elsewhere. Pensions too.




  • pixelburp wrote: »
    I'm not sure I'd classify the joining of kingdoms for monarchic convenience as a voluntary move by "Scots". Or indeed anyone else on the island. Besides, and here the historical experts can correct me, James I was King of Scotland first and foremost so really Edinburgh should be centre of the Union, not London ;) - if we're taking centuries old precedence as the driver here.

    Scottish self determination should only be considered as old as the modern democratic institutions that dictate the current iteration of the UK, anything less is just silly. So to that end, if we take 79 as the starting point, it's already a 40+ year project. Within a union where enfranchisement itself is barely 100+ years old (I can't recall when women got the vote, though IIRC that act technically included all men over 18, as opposed to only college grads).

    1918




  • 1918

    Thanks. Gosh that really is nothing. So there's the most reasonable time frame we can consider scottish nationalism as a question to the people itself. And to that end, self determination has been a yes since for 40 years, just remains a split decision, coupled with trapdoors to stop excessive autonomy.


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  • Significant event in Glasgow today as protestors managed to get a UK immigration van to release two men that had earlier been detained.

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1392887669684949000

    https://twitter.com/ReidEileen1/status/1392883317188481026

    Watching images like this adds to the sense that these are countries with very different outlooks moving in very different directions.

    This was the Scottish government's take, as reported by the BBC:
    Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who is also the MSP for the area, said she disagreed fundamentally with Home Office immigration policy.

    She said: "This action was unacceptable. To act in this way, in the heart of a Muslim community as they celebrated Eid, and in an area experiencing a Covid outbreak was a health and safety risk."

    She said she would be "demanding assurances" from the UK government that they would not create such a dangerous situation again.

    She added: "No assurances were given - and frankly no empathy shown - when I managed to speak to a junior minister earlier."

    Humza Yousaf, the Scottish government's justice secretary, said: "the action they [the Home Office] have today is at best completely reckless, and at worst intended to provoke, on a day the UK government would have known the Scottish government and MSPs would be distracted by parliamentary process."

    He added that the situation "should never have occurred", and that "the UK government's hostile environment is not welcome here."

    BBC Scotland has asked the Home Office to comment.


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