Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

molloyjh

Hang on, how is it news that a BP win in Paris is tough? Its tough for any team. How many teams have scored 4 or more tries in Paris in the 6Ns? That isnt particular to Ireland. Getting BP wins away from home is hard in the 6Ns generally (Italy being the obvious exception). Much less with a vastly weakened squad.

At the end of the day we go into the final weekend top of the table and in with a chance of winning the title. We put more points on Italy than anyone else so far, again with a vastly weakened squad. We're blooding a few young lads (some by choice, some by necessity) and looking to implement a very different game plan. Anyone expecting Ireland to beat France with a TBP in the circumstances we are in, or who even consider that a reasonable expectation, would need to seriously reconsider their position.

Thats not to say we can't do it. We can. But its unlikely. This looks to be an resurgent French side. We're missing 8 or 9 from our 23. We're away from home. Any win here would be a great result, even if it doesn't lead to a title win. But a loss isn't a disaster. The manner of it would obviously impact how we view the Championship, but so far its been broadly positive. We just need to get this England monkey off our back. Which they were saying about us a few years back. As I said before theres a cyclical nature to this stuff too.

ionadnapokot

kuang1 wrote: »

Scrums for sure are a worry, but I think we're being a little underestimated for our potential to play in an open game.
Farrell is clearly trying to nurture a less shackled approach than we had with Joe. I just feel that jumping to a conclusion of France getting the better of us in that style of game is premature.

Wales are not up to much at all at the moment, hence I'm reluctant to read too much into their game last week.

French teams more often than not don't like it being put up to them, and I think that's what we'll do.

Not hard for me to picture a scenario where we get slow motion replays of French players shrugging their shoulders as we dot down for our 4th try.

Edit: didn't completely answer your question... I expect the manner in which we'll "put it up to them" won't necessarily be through winning the collisions, but more with some surprise plays with grubber and chips and variations in restarts/lineouts.
Almost barbarian-like!

(hoping for too much? )

Remember Its the hope that kills you!!
But it why we keep coming back for more...
& I do believe they have the capability to do the things you have highlighted.

However, i question if they can actually execute those skills under the extremes of test level pressure.
I believe Ireland to have a glass jaw after conceding an early try.
We scored the first try in each of our games during the Grand Slam (pens v France) and capitulated when England, Wales and NZ scored an early try in 2019. & England this year.

Those attacking Gruber kicks and chips are essential nowadays and again I have seen very little (i think 1 v Scot? & maybe 1 v Wales?) of those from Ireland to suggest that thy will suddenly be able to execute tomorrow.

It's the old cliché but the first 20mins in Paris will be key.
Ireland score a try first they have a fighting chance.
If France do i fear for another capitulation.

kuang1

I still get the impression that rhetoric such as "in Paris", "getting a BP away from home" is still being given the weight it would be given in any normal season.

Away teams are having to fly and stay in beds that are not their own.
Imo that's the extent of the advantages that a home team has at the moment.

Listen to any players that speak in interviews or biographies about test rugby.

The crowd plays a HUUUUUUUUGE role in these games.

This is not a typical 6ns game in Paris, and the obstacles in the way victory are less in number than ever before.

Both teams to score 4 tries in under 20 minutes and then it turns into a conservative arm wrestle to eek out the win. Heard it here first.

ionadnapokot

kuang1 wrote: »

I still get the impression that rhetoric such as "in Paris", "getting a BP away from home" is still being given the weight it would be given in any normal season.

Away teams are having to fly and stay in beds that are not their own.
Imo that's the extent of the advantages that a home team has at the moment.

Listen to any players that speak in interviews or biographies about test rugby.

The crowd plays a HUUUUUUUUGE role in these games.

This is not a typical 6ns game in Paris, and the obstacles in the way victory are less in number than ever before.

Regardless if it was Paris or Dublin Ireland will loose if they concede the first try.
Of Ireland’s 12 losses under Schmidt and now Farrell in 6N & RWC matches:
9 of those games the opposition got the first try
7 of those games the opposition scored a try in the first 20 mins.

Hence first 20 mins will be key cliché!

bilston

With no crowd, with both teams potentially needing a BP win...if we're ever going to do it tomorrow night is the night.

The worst outcome is for France to have nothing to play for bar the win.

Niallof9

sydthebeat wrote: »

The "autumn nations cup" is a complete honeymoon period....
its a nothing tournament completely ideal to blood new players and see how they perform at test level.
The team that takes to the field in the Aviva in 2 weeks time will be quite different to the team that starts tomorrow.
Its the perfect tournament to experiment and build experience.... in those positions where the age profile and depth chart is not great.

to say Andy Farrell will only start coming under pressure if we lose tomorrow is just silly......... taking the improvement of france in the last 12 months and the injury / missing list that ireland have. Hell, even if england beat Italy by 70 pints and the french have nothing really to play for, i still can see it being an incredibly hard physical tight game.

Farrell has been under pressure before he took the job, with the usual doom mongers complaining that he was part of the old guard of Joes tenure and sure nothing is going to change. We have done incredibly well to be where we are with one game left... and if we lose tomorrow its nowhere near a crisis or something for Farrell to panic over. We are developing our game, but we will not have it in anyway as easy against a shaun edwards coached french defense, as we had it against Italy. We are at risk in broken play and no better team in this competition than france to exploit a fragmented defense.

i think France will win by about 10-12. I think their discipline will be much improved on last week, and i think they will win the up front arm wrestle. we will try to play around them but the pressure they will put us under will lead to handling mistakes out wide. i dont think it will be as high scoring as some might think, as defenses will be tighter. I think england will put 50 on italy and win by about 40 points... and i think we will go down about 28 - 17 or something similar

if we lose by 10-12 points tomorrow it can be fair to say its been a poor championship considering being hammered physically by ENgland. your reaction is the exact honeymoon period i'm talking about. he isn't getting much criticism, pressure or even any analysis at least in compariosn to any coach we've had recently. i mean its difficult due to the truncated season, he'll get a pass given covid as well and the lack of a summer tour. so fair enough. but we really need to see something substantial tomorrow. 11-12 points defeat would be pretty disastrous if its in tandem with a poor performance. hopefully he will continue to be bold in selection in the forthcoming tournament. But Farrell shouldn't get as much goodwill if it goes pear shaped considering he was part of the old regime which failed spectacularly in Japan.

theboss80

I would imagine Farrell has been told by the powers that be, financially Ireland need to get as high in the table as possible. A 1pt win would not win a championship but could secure 2nd place and a sizeable pot of cash. Going balls out for tries and loosing the game could result in a 4th place finish. So I'm not surprised we hear that "win the game first" talk.

I like it about as much as wearing a mask but both are current reality.

Niallof9

theboss80 wrote: »

I would imagine Farrell has been told by the powers that be, financially Ireland need to get as high in the table as possible. A 1pt win would not win a championship but could secure 2nd place and a sizeable pot of cash. Going balls out for tries and loosing the game could result in a 4th place finish. So I'm not surprised we hear that "win the game first" talk.

I like it about as much as wearing a mask but both are current reality.

Yeah i've heard this money talk from some people behind the scenes. its a good point.6 million for first place and £3.5 million
for second.

we just need a good performance with clear direction in the more open gameplan the players are professing to be using. anything other than that will be very poor. Its not going to be easy, but this isn't the France of old. going to Paris hoping for a 11-12 defeat is old school irish of the worst kind. thankfully nobody involved thinks like this anymore. we can definitely win this match, but a bonus point is unlikely. a defeat isn't a disaster but if we get physically bullied and show no signs of cohesion/new style around the park we cannot pretend its not worrying. November then would need to be a clean slate, completely. Perhaps either way it needs to be.

Buer

The players will be fully aware the financial implication of winning tomorrow. It could well be the difference between offered a new deal or being let go for some guys.

WhoamI2022

Never mind the players.....the money from the 6 nations will keep the tea lady etc in a job. They will be the first to be released. It is something like 500k per position in the table I think, it was mentioned on a podcast. That is a number of people in a job for the next 12 months.

partyguinness

Ireland win in Paris- Unlikely on current form.

Ireland win in Paris with BP- Ah stop now.

ElisaAtWar

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Gentle reminder that we beat France in 2019, 2018, 2017, 2015 (twice), and 2014 with Joe Schmidt selecting the team.

So we beat them in Paris in 2018 and 2014 and only went down to them by a point in 2016.

So if you feel Andy is picking a team like Joe you should probably be heartened....

The irony of accusing people of having short memories while seemingly forgetting our impressive record against France :pac::pac:

It's not an accusation. It's a belief. It's just a continuation of pain. Let me say I am no fan of JGP but the distribution when he came on was so much faster. And it's clear Stockdale is no fullback. And Sexton is living on borrowed time as Kearney did before him. So tomorrow will hopefully put all this pain to bed and we can move on

salmocab

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

It's not an accusation. It's a belief. It's just a continuation of pain. Let me say I am no fan of JGP but the distribution when he came on was so much faster. And it's clear Stockdale is no fullback. And Sexton is living on borrowed time as Kearney did before him. So tomorrow will hopefully put all this pain to bed and we can move on

Give us the XV you’d go with, you expressed your dissatisfaction with them team.

molloyjh

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

It's not an accusation. It's a belief. It's just a continuation of pain. Let me say I am no fan of JGP but the distribution when he came on was so much faster. And it's clear Stockdale is no fullback. And Sexton is living on borrowed time as Kearney did before him. So tomorrow will hopefully put all this pain to bed and we can move on

A continuation of pain? We had 1 poor year under Joe. We also had more success than ever before. Hyperbole much? Jesus....

This all just stinks of hot take I'm afraid. Little to no effort to factor in any relevant context or perspective.

Also, what does this borrowed time lark actually mean? Ireland should select the best players in each position. Right now Sexton is by some distance that at 10. And we have nobody anywhere else in the country making a case for their selection ahead of him. Is he as good as he was a few years ago? No. But at that stage he was one of, if not the best in his position. In the world. So using that as a barometer is hardly fair. The only barometer that matters is his ability vs those others vying for the 10 shirt. And right now nobody else comes close. He's still a top quality 10, despite what some might say.

Dog Botherer

our options at FB are either play a moderately experienced winger out of position, or play a FB with little to no international experience. not great, on balance.

Sexton is still better than Byrne, it’s a must win, play your best player. JGP has been excellent since the return, hard to argue with his spot. Marmion and Blade have also been good but Blade isn’t much more experienced than JGP at this level and Marmion was only called into the squad as injury cover so not surprising he isn’t involved really.

ElisaAtWar

molloyjh wrote: »

A continuation of pain? We had 1 poor year under Joe. We also had more success than ever before. Hyperbole much? Jesus....

This all just stinks of hot take I'm afraid. Little to no effort to factor in any relevant context or perspective.

Also, what does this borrowed time lark actually mean? Ireland should select the best players in each position. Right now Sexton is by some distance that at 10. And we have nobody anywhere else in the country making a case for their selection ahead of him. Is he as good as he was a few years ago? No. But at that stage he was one of, if not the best in his position. In the world. So using that as a barometer is hardly fair. The only barometer that matters is his ability vs those others vying for the 10 shirt. And right now nobody else comes close. He's still a top quality 10, despite what some might say.

There have been things that have changed for the best and there are things that won't change unless, it seems, we must fail. Andrew Porter is incredible, Will Connors. These are incredible introductions to the Irish setup. And then as our team is strengthened we refuse to let go of our weaknesses. It's mind-blowing

Paul Smeenus

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

There have been things that have changed for the best and there are things that won't change unless, it seems, we must fail. Andrew Porter is incredible, Will Connors. These are incredible introductions to the Irish setup. And then as our team is strengthened we refuse to let go of our weaknesses. It's mind-blowing

Andrew Porter "incredible"? Yowsers.

ElisaAtWar

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Andrew Porter "incredible"? Yowsers.

Yes Paul Smeenus Andrew Porter has been fantastic and I believe Tadgh Furlong would agree, if not heartily agree

UAEguy2020

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Andrew Porter "incredible"? Yowsers.

Around the park he has been excellent, its like having a 4th backrow with him on the field.

WhoamI2022

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

It's not an accusation. It's a belief. It's just a continuation of pain. Let me say I am no fan of JGP but the distribution when he came on was so much faster. And it's clear Stockdale is no fullback. And Sexton is living on borrowed time as Kearney did before him. So tomorrow will hopefully put all this pain to bed and we can move on

Stockdale got to the a World Cup final playing 15, something not many an Irish player can say.

Who would you put at 10 instead of Sexton? who at 15?

Paul Smeenus

Okay. I think he's been very good.

I'm not a "the bus came right on time yesterday and it was incredible" kinda guy.

ElisaAtWar

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Stockdale got to the a World Cup final playing 15, something not many an Irish player can say.

Who would you put at 10 instead of Sexton? who at 15?

It's not that simple. The question is wrong in the first place. It's not about replacing Sexton, the right question is what do you want from this team. Do you want this Sexton/ murray combo or are you finally willing to say it offers nothing and it's time to move on. And then visualize other possibilities. And that's the sticking point. It has nothing got to do with Sexton or Murray but just someone who cannot see outside that box

salmocab

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

It's not that simple. The question is wrong in the first place. It's not about replacing Sexton, the right question is what do you want from this team. Do you want this Sexton/ murray combo or are you finally willing to say it offers nothing and it's time to move on. And then visualize other possibilities. And that's the sticking point. It has nothing got to do with Sexton or Murray but just someone who cannot see outside that box

Move on to who? You’re just giving generic terms but no solutions of your own.

WhoamI2022

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

It's not that simple. The question is wrong in the first place. It's not about replacing Sexton, the right question is what do you want from this team. Do you want this Sexton/ murray combo or are you finally willing to say it offers nothing and it's time to move on. And then visualize other possibilities. And that's the sticking point. It has nothing got to do with Sexton or Murray but just someone who cannot see outside that box

I know what I want from the team, please enlighten me, what do you want from this team?

Paul Smeenus

salmocab wrote: »

Move on to who? You’re just giving generic terms but no solutions of your own.

Aren't you listening? Some other, unspecified possibility. Someone outside the box. For goodness' sake, Salmo.

ElisaAtWar

salmocab wrote: »

Move on to who? You’re just giving generic terms but no solutions of your own.

I think you miss the point. It has nothing got to do with who the players are. It has to do with what you want as a coach to stamp your authority. And Andy Farrell has shown nothing in this regard. And it's a right shame. It's an awful pity he couldn't be 'different'

salmocab

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

I think you miss the point. It has nothing got to do with who the players are. It has to do with what you want as a coach to stamp your authority. And Andy Farrell has shown nothing in this regard. And it's a right shame. It's an awful pity he couldn't be 'different'

But how? What could he do differently? He have 4 new caps last week will probably dish out a few more soon enough. You have out about the selection so what would you have done differently in selection?
Actually I’ve just realised your ouncer from the Connacht thread don’t worry about answering me.

WhoamI2022

salmocab wrote: »

But how? What could he do differently? He have 4 new caps last week will probably dish out a few more soon enough. You have out about the selection so what would you have done differently in selection?

He should be "different"....you should be "different", I should be "different", the World should be "different".

ElisaAtWar

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

It's not that simple. The question is wrong in the first place. It's not about replacing Sexton, the right question is what do you want from this team. Do you want this Sexton/ murray combo or are you finally willing to say it offers nothing and it's time to move on. And then visualize other possibilities. And that's the sticking point. It has nothing got to do with Sexton or Murray but just someone who cannot see outside that box

But that's just not true