Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

sydthebeat

Guinness RFC wrote: »

As far as the mindset of the players is concerned I believe it is possible to determine what that is like individually and collectively by merely watching them play. Trying to pull off flicks behind the back or forwards stationed out on the wings are signs of Prima Donna attitude. It’s not the players’ faults they simply haven’t been taught not to do these things. I know some will say sometimes it’s in Leo’s gameplan to create mismatches on the wing and have forwards blazing down that channel but I think if you are young and trying to make an impression you get stuck in to the basics and are seen to be working your ass off. You don’t hang out in the wide channels. This could also be said of tackling technique, trying too many fancy plays, kicking the ball excessively (I.e. hogging possession to make yourself look good) or simply not digging out tough matches.

In the context of an Ireland thread this is an incredibly weird post.

in the context of international rugby having forwards in the 5m channel is hardly "prima donna" tactics. The all black often apply a 1-3-3-1 split attack which ended up with typically Coles or Read on the wing when in possession.

anyway, regardless of that, the only irish player who could be claimed to spend an inordinate amount of time on the wing is O Mahony... and hes certainly doing that under instruction.

bilston

molloyjh wrote: »

Seriously though, I'm getting pretty worried about Ireland in the short term at the very least. We dont have any top level LHs knocking about. Our hooker options aren't great. While Kelleher is a great prospect, for now that's all he is. We've 2 great TH options if they could both stay fit. But Furlongs absence will hurt us.

Behind them Ryan is great obviously, but we dont exactly have great depth. Hendo is good and Baird looks a prospect, but everything after that is various shades of average at Test level.

We're also a far, far cry from our back row hey day of Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip & SOB. We've some good options there, but no real great ones. Certainly no destructive ball carriers like that former back row.

At half back we dont have clear cut Test level replacements for either Murray or Sexton. We've some good centres thankfully, and the overall age profile there is good. Our back 3 options mainly have some great strengths with glaring weaknesses.

I can see us being a good team over the coming years, but not a great team. I dont think we have the squad to be challenging England or possibly even France if they are in fact finally getting their act together. It makes me appreciate the 2014 - 2018 period all the more. I think we might be seeing a slump in the coming years. Certainly for the coming few games, we're not in the best of shapes anyway. Thank god one of those is Italy.

I tend to agree...although there are some good prospects around. Craig Casey, Harry Byrne, Ben Healy, James Hume and Robert Balacoune in the backs (others exist no doubt)...Ronan Kelleher, Ryan Baird, Caolan Doris in the forwards (again others will be about)...so while I get, and share the concern, there is some hope...

But to compete to win Grand Slams and be the world No.1? I think we could be waiting while for that.

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

Whats everyone else thinking in terms of a first choice 23 for the 2 6Ns games? Is the below the most likely or am I missing someone?

Healy Herring Porter
Dillane Ryan
Doris Stander VDF

Murray Sexton
Aki Ringrose
Stockdale Keenan Conway

Kelleher, Byrne, Ryan, Roux, Conan, Marmion, Byrne, Henshaw

worrying if we have to go away to France with that as the 23.

Jump_In_Jack

molloyjh wrote: »

Whats everyone else thinking in terms of a first choice 23 for the 2 6Ns games? Is the below the most likely or am I missing someone?

Healy Herring Porter
Dillane Ryan
Doris Stander VDF

Murray Sexton
Aki Ringrose
Stockdale Keenan Conway

Kelleher, Byrne, Ryan, Roux, Conan, Marmion, Byrne, Henshaw

Tadhg Beirne ahead of Dillane perhaps?
I'd also start Roux as a dedicated tight-head.

The Lost Sheep

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Tadhg Beirne ahead of Dillane perhaps?
I'd also start Roux as a dedicated tight-head.

Dillane deserves to be involved more than Beirne and Roux shouldnt start. Why does he need to?

Jump_In_Jack

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Dillane deserves to be involved more than Beirne and Roux shouldnt start. Why does he need to?

He's a big heavy tight-head, I think he would strengthen up our scrum, also would free up Ryan from having to do that (necessary) grunt work.
Dillane was called up as injury cover, so don't know what you mean by he deserves it more than a player that was called up to the squad before that.
There's not much between them, Dillane is a better carrier in the tight, Beirne is better at jackaling.

The Lost Sheep

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

He's a big heavy tight-head, I think he would strengthen up our scrum, also would free up Ryan from having to do that (necessary) grunt work.
Dillane was called up as injury cover, so don't know what you mean by he deserves it more than a player that was called up to the squad before that.
There's not much between them, Dillane is a better carrier in the tight, Beirne is better at jackaling.

So what if he's big heavy second row. Is the scrum really been such an issue that it needs to be strengthened up that much?

Jump_In_Jack

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

So what if he's big heavy second row. Is the scrum really been such an issue that it needs to be strengthened up that much?

In general, look at the world cup final, look at Saracens beating Leinster, if you lose the scrum it can prevent you from getting much of a foothold in the match.

Against Italy maybe it won't come down to the scrum, but against France it certainly could.

The Lost Sheep

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

In general, look at the world cup final, look at Saracens beating Leinster, if you lose the scrum it can prevent you from getting much of a foothold in the match.

Against Italy maybe it won't come down to the scrum, but against France it certainly could.

And a second row isnt going to be near why the scrum will be difference between winning and losing especially when international games have around 13/14 scrums per game. If it was the 80s and there were 30+ scrums a game then maybe but not now.

sydthebeat

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

And a second row isnt going to be near why the scrum will be difference between winning and losing

that is quite a naive statement

The Lost Sheep

sydthebeat wrote: »

that is quite a naive statement

Im saying a second row like Roux is not going to be the big difference that some are trying to say he would be.

sydthebeat

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Im saying a second row like Roux is not going to be the big difference that some are trying to say he would be.

When it comes to scrum time, there is probably no better tighthead lock available in the country.

outside of the scrum, i agree that he wont be the winning or losing of a game.... and his discipline can be a hindrance...

but we're discussing Roux in the strict terms of the scrum here... and to say that he wouldn't make a difference to the winning or losing of the scrum just isnt correct. He is incredibly influential at that aspect.

The Lost Sheep

sydthebeat wrote: »

When it comes to scrum time, there is probably no better tighthead lock available in the country.

outside of the scrum, i agree that he wont be the winning or losing of a game.... and his discipline can be a hindrance...

but we're discussing Roux in the strict terms of the scrum here... and to say that he wouldn't make a difference to the winning or losing of the scrum just isnt correct. He is incredibly influential at that aspect.

But he wont be the difference between winning and losing the game which is what matters.

sydthebeat

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But he wont be the difference between winning and losing the game which is what matters.

very definitive statement there.

its incredibly hard to win any game is your scrum is giving away penalties all the time... there is quite recent evidence for this.

J-in-J has already stated why the inclusion of Roux is a valid suggestion.

you can be guaranteed that France will target our scrum as a point of weakness for us. You asked:

Is the scrum really been such an issue that it needs to be strengthened up that much?

and i think many would argue that yes, it is... especially considering missing first choice tight head and an ageing first choice loose head, and missing his able replacement

sydthebeat

Guinness RFC wrote: »

As far as the mindset of the players is concerned I believe it is possible to determine what that is like individually and collectively by merely watching them play. Trying to pull off flicks behind the back or forwards stationed out on the wings are signs of Prima Donna attitude. It’s not the players’ faults they simply haven’t been taught not to do these things. I know some will say sometimes it’s in Leo’s gameplan to create mismatches on the wing and have forwards blazing down that channel but I think if you are young and trying to make an impression you get stuck in to the basics and are seen to be working your ass off. You don’t hang out in the wide channels. This could also be said of tackling technique, trying too many fancy plays, kicking the ball excessively (I.e. hogging possession to make yourself look good) or simply not digging out tough matches.

just to come back to this again.... its absolutely dripping with the conservatism and over-management that has been used as a stick to beat irish rugby with over the last couple of years. Allowing the players to be freer to play is what we should be aiming for...

or we end up with this:

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2020/1010/1170715-irish-mitre-10-new-zealand-regan-odonnell-jager/

Oliver Jager wrote: »

I remember once at home I threw an offload behind my back in training and a coach came up and said that was awesome, but do it again and I’ll drop you

Conan O'Donnell wrote:

I find I have changed my game a good bit. My skills have come on a lot. Even when we are playing tag, I’m pulling out all sorts of moves.

Through the leg passes and behind the head passes, I couldn’t do that before.

They don’t give out to you for some stuff. If you make a line break, you are encouraged to keep the ball alive. It can be riskier, but those passes are on more because support players are looking for them rather than going to a ruck.

Guinness RFC

sydthebeat wrote: »

just to come back to this again.... its absolutely dripping with the conservatism and over-management that has been used as a stick to beat irish rugby with over the last couple of years. Allowing the players to be freer to play is what we should be aiming for...

or we end up with this:

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2020/1010/1170715-irish-mitre-10-new-zealand-regan-odonnell-jager/

Being free to play doesn’t mean every forward becomes a back. They still have a job to do. Discipline wins games and disciplining players for sloppy or selfish play reaps rewards in the long term.

sydthebeat

Yes mistress

Dog Botherer

is guinness okay

The Lost Sheep

sydthebeat wrote: »

very definitive statement there.

its incredibly hard to win any game is your scrum is giving away penalties all the time... there is quite recent evidence for this.

J-in-J has already stated why the inclusion of Roux is a valid suggestion.

you can be guaranteed that France will target our scrum as a point of weakness for us. You asked:

and i think many would argue that yes, it is... especially considering missing first choice tight head and an ageing first choice loose head, and missing his able replacement

we're talking about a second row not a prop which is very different.

Jump_In_Jack

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

we're talking about a second row not a prop which is very different.

I think you’re not appreciating how important the tight head lock is in a scrum.
It is a physically demanding position, and Quinn Roux and Jean Kleyn have the ideal type of build for that role.

The Lost Sheep

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I think you’re not appreciating how important the tight head lock is in a scrum.
It is a physically demanding position, and Quinn Roux and Jean Kleyn have the ideal type of build for that role.

And the other second row isnt a physically demanding position?
you are putting far too much of an emphasis on the tight head second row. yes playing scrum behind your tighthead is physically demanding but it can vary hugely depending on need but the second row is not going to be near cause of issues in scrum compared to anything in front row.

Richie_Rich89

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I think you’re not appreciating how important the tight head lock is in a scrum.
It is a physically demanding position, and Quinn Roux and Jean Kleyn have the ideal type of build for that role.

Yeah, it's become pretty important. 15 or 20 years ago you'd get a turnover on opposition put-in if the scrum went through 90 degrees. Now, you're in danger of getting penalised for 'walking around' if you don't hold it square on opposition put in. That means you need a lot of stability on the tighthead side, and a strong-scrummaging th lock can be a big help with that.

Wheeling used to be an art form and it was only 'whipping', or pulling back on the th side while going forward on the other, that was illegal. That's gone out of the game now, though.

PTH2009

The Italy match must be cursed

Country going into level 5 with no sporting events to take place

PTH2009

PTH2009 wrote: »

The Italy match must be cursed

Country going into level 5 with no sporting events to take place

Surely there'll some kind of exception.

Please.

I beg you.

I need this.

PCros

PTH2009 wrote: »

The Italy match must be cursed

Country going into level 5 with no sporting events to take place

Even if it goes to Level 4 can this proceed?

Stheno

PCros wrote: »

Even if it goes to Level 4 can this proceed?

Yes at level 4
No at level 5

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/status/1317131866802094082?s=19

FACECUTTR

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/status/1317131866802094082?s=19

Que the hate

rayd3

What hate? Haven’t seen any of those usu opinion pieces about Seamus Lowe or Seamuson Gibson-Pork yet. Curious isn’t it.

Richie_Rich89

Zebo's starting for Racing and Ryan's on the bench. I wonder if an acceptable compromise to the selection of overseas players chestnut would be that they be considered for World Cups, but not for everything else?

Would that be enough to incentivise most top players to stay?

Having players who are making a success of playing for foreign teams filter into the squad could be a bit of a boost. They could bring an insider's knowledge and confidence when trying to go about beating certain teams, and, from a psychological point of view, it could make the squad feel as if they're stronger than at other times. Let's face it, Ireland needs all the help they can get at World Cup time.